Frans Steyn

Is set for ankle surgery this week.....which takes away any temptation Meyer may have had to make the wrong decision.

Perhaps this break is a good thing. Fransie was going nowhere at centre....where his propensity to crash away good ball, failure of vision and inability to accelerate the backline made the Boks impotent. His defence while powerful at times was also not consistent....with low tackle counts and missed tackles.

Things happen too fast for Fransie at 12.....he needed to be further out, but pace would then have been a concern.

In my view he has to commit to playing fullback and hone those skills. Otherwise he risks being yet another Jack of all trades and master of none....a fate he shares with guys like Russell, Hougaard and till recently Pienaar. In fact Pienaar, who was lost at 10 and uncomfortable at 15 is a good model for Fransie. His revival is all about settling back into his best position scrumhalf.

 We just posted the hot of the press story of Frans Steyn at the same time

No worries SB....I just saw this on Rugby 365. We're on the cutting edge!

Moz with all due respect you are speaking complete nonsense. Frans has been one of our best backs under Meyer, certainly better than Jean, Kirchner, Morne, Hougaard and Pienaar. JP was our top back and Habana has now joined JP.

Frans will play 12 under Meyer and rightly so. You clearly have no clue when it comes to backline play. Its the 10 that sets his outside backs up on attack, not the 12. Morne failed to deliver on this front and the addition of Goosen at 10, exposed Morne for how poor he was in this department. Frans was never given any space with Morne on his inside and what he did do in traffic was impose himself physically hence his higher player ratings than most of the other backs. You really do fail to grasp reality dont you?

The real failure amongst the centres was Jean at 13, where he only ever charged into his opposite number with little effect or crabbed his wings into touch when he did try go wide - he was really poor.

Against Oz at 12, he was better than he was at 13, but still way below par as we saw no breaks despite the platform set up by Goosen. The only back to slip his man was Taute at 13.

Meyer will invest in Frans at 12 as he must realise that Jean's days are done and Frans is a proven asset in the position.

Frans has been better than Jean under Meyer - FACT

Saffex

Your persoinal likes and dislikes of playes do not allow you to make really objective assessments.   If there was one thing that neither Francois Steyn nor Jean De Villiets was this year - it definitely was not good centers.   There can be arguments as to which of the two was the worse - Mozart thinks Steyn and you think De Villiers.   There are to my mind mostly  negative remembrances of the performances of both up to the test against the Wallabies.  

The worst moment insofar as Francois Steyn is concerned was that case in the POM test - where he was virtually standing on our goal line and the ball was passed to him for a relieving kick and he kicked a dribble kick along the ground - placing the whole team off-side.   The mediocre ones were where he crashballed and there were turnovers.     Also the cases where he missed tackles can best be descibed as mediocre.  The only really noticeable one on the positive side was the break he made towards the end of the Dunedin test - which also led to nothing,   His contribution to the team can best be decribed as average to poor - but you refuse to recognise that.  I leave out the charge down try in Mendoza - which was in any event really a gift to the Springboks by the Argentinians.   This occurence was totally out of characgter with the rest of the Steyn performances and can best be described as an accident.

Jean De Villiers had his own moments of real poor play.   The worst moment no dount was on one of the rare occassions where he got the ball and could pass the ball - his pass went astray and over the sideline.   He virtually never saw or received any balls - when Morne did not kick - Franscois Steyn crashballed.    The poor play was where he missed a number of tackles.  The positives where he passed the ball  quickly and effectively to JP in the score in the second test against the POMS.   Same as Francois Steyn - with the difference that in a case he at least he was involved a real backline movement where a try was scored.

If any of the two was playing for any other international side - dismisasal would have been a very real possibility.

In the Ausssie test on Saturday at least De Villiers had a huge game - despite the fact that you said he did nothing noteworthy - again displaying your prejudice.   Francois still has to show some signs of life in any tests and he won't get the opportunity this year.   He would get ample opportunities next year in Super 15  next year.   Maybe he would show some life there - one consolation is that no French Club will offer him a contract - he was way to poor there.   So the Super 15 next year will reveal all.    

Dave you are just as wrong about this as you were when you went on and on about Pienaar at flyhlaf being the answer to Bok back play. Pienaar was never a flyhalf, and Fransie is no centre. For one thing he has no speed off the mark.

Conveniently you place all the blame on Morne. But playing outside Morne, Jean has always been good for a break or two a game. Fransie managed one break in 6 games.

This Fransie myth lingered on from the RWC07 where he also did little except miss Mathew Tait for what could have been a RWC losing try. Fortunately Victor took him down and Dannie was able to just scramble Cueto into touch.

Hell Frans has averaged less than 2 metres a run this Championship. He has not been one of our better players.....he has been in the bottom 5 most games. Playing outside Morne in the TN, Jean has averaged 4 metres a carry over many games, not earth shattering but respectable for a 12.....and more than twice as much as Fransie.

End of.

I think that Frans should have said that he wants to play at 15, but he wants to play 12. No point putting a player in a position that he doesn't want to play in. 

It also will be interesting to see how the sharks use him next season. I think Frans might have told that he is only going to play 12 and no other position. 

I think the sharks have some great potential in tersm of what they can offer next year in the super 15. 

Potential sharks backline

9 Mcloud (Pienaar would have been better)

10 Lambie

11 JP Pietersen

12 Steyn

13 Jordaan

14 Ndugane

15 Ludik / Viljoen

Back up players

Whitehead

Mvovo

Bosman

Viljoen

So far, I think the sharks have the best s15 squad for next year

Kingcorn

I agree with your Shark backline - bar the scrummie.  Nobody in the Sherks team could have costed them more points than McLeod.   

Remember -

*  the wildd pass over the dead ball line in the game against the Reds;

*  The way above head pass to Viljoen in the Cheetahs game - which prevented him from making a releiving kick - forcing him to pass to Botha - knocked on after which Pretorius scored a try for the Cheetahs;.

*  the wild pass to nobody that led to the ball being picked up by the Lions no 8 - who scored a try.

These are just a few examples of many - no wonder in recent games the Sgarks preferred to use Reinach as scrummie and put McLeod on the bench - the Lions incident happened immediately agter McLeod came off the bench.

The Sharks would be wise to retain Reinach as scrummie and forget about McLeod - he is too unprefictable and too  poor a ball handler.   Really more of a liability than an asset.

 It is a pity that Conrad Hoffman has practically been permantly injured. If he can get for next season than the Sharks will be a real threat or they should find a decent scrummy for next season. 

Talking of which, there is a real of quality scrummies at the moment.

JDV belongs at #12, Frans had one good game in that position (correct me if i'm wrong) against Fiji in last years RWC. As an All Blacks supporter I'll ask HM to please play FS at #12.....  

The scary thing is you actually believe this rot. You say:

" He was not expected to gain 40m a game and make breaks at will, which international 12 does that huh? - McCabe, Nonu -"

Well since Nonu came back to 12 for NZ he has gained 66 metres, 31 metres and 43 metres.

Schplottttt.....game, set and match.

Sarffex

I do believe that the major problem in the backline was in fact Morne Steyn - he does not allow any backline to function properly.   The moment he was gone the backline became a different propossition - in fact it was really delightful to see how much better the backline functioned.   De Villiers had the opportunity to play outside of Goosen and the whole scenario changed - he grabbed the opportunity with both hands and played very well - despite what you said to the contrary.

On the other hand I said that the same opportunity must be given to Steyn - and I fully agree with you that if he fails to use his opportunity and keep on playing crashball rugby he should go.   I have said so constantly - I hope he passes the test - infortunately that opportunity would not come this year and to my mind Steyn should use the Syper 15 next year to get his act together.   I would be delighted if he does make it - but I have a nagging suspicion he would not make the grade.  There are too many indicators that he may not - but I hope they are wrong.

One thing that is really amazing is why Meyer stuck so long with Morne and now with Kirchner.   I like clever ball players and Kirchner is not one of those.   For every good thing he does - he buggers up two others.  I agree he should go and am also in agreement that within the next year De  Villiers should also leave international rugby.   However, the replacements are not always evident.   Taute made a good impression in his defensive play- but in attack he was not really top clas and did not show enoigh to qualify for permanent selection in that position.   He passed the test - but he will have to pass further tests to establish his claim to permanency in the no 13 jersey.  The jury is out on that one.

Incidentally the players in the Springbok team is really on the young side.   In that regard it must be mentioned that the average age of players are 25 - compared to the 29.9 of the All Black team.  Yhat means they are on average 5 years younger than the All Blacl team.    Interesting enough therr are only two team members older than 30 - De Villiers (31) and Liebenberg (30).   There are two 29 year olds and 6  28 year olds in the squad of 22.   On the younger side there are 2 20 year-olds.   I think there are more younger players than we  always recognize or think of.   Bearing that in mind the above, the team in general is young enough to go through to the next WC and the fact is that Meyer has brought in more youngsters than any coach before him.

However, there is no guarantee that all the younger players will pass the grade - what is really good is the number and qaulity of the younger contenders - their time will come and they better grab the opportunities with both hands.   It is a hard world out there  and opportunties may be few and far between.    

Nothing is written.....Dave writes Taute up as if he was a revelation. Not so....he hardly made any attacking impression, but tackled well. Time will tell.

Agreed time will tell, but one certainty is that there is more to this kid than you make out to be. Physical with a nice step and swerve. He might not have gained many metres, but what he did do was beat the first defender with a step almost every time he got the ball

Saffex

I looked at the game again last night and really concentrated on Taute to see how he did.   As a matter of fact - that influneced me further in his favour.   He made two mistakes in ball handling - but after looking ar rhe whole game - I became more enthusiastic about his performance.   I really now think he has past the first test and will be reatained as the new 13 - bearing in mind the fact that sooner or later De Villiers will be out of consideration.

In essence I believe that there are other youngsters with massive potential and I am particularly disappointed with what I saw of Engelbrecht recently - he really was poor since his return from the squad.    However, he had to contend with a poor backline environment and that may change in time to come.   Look what happened to Sadie for instance.   Rhule is really amazing - however, he needs to be fine-tuned and that can be done in the next Super 15 series.

Jordaan is the unfortunate one at the moment - he definitely as the x-facrot..   If I was Meyer I would have him on the bench.   The number of tries this guy scores or those he made is really amazing.   I wonder whether Meyer would not include him for the end of the year tour.   In fact Meyer would be foolish if he does not do that.

Try and see the Friday night game between the Bulls and WP.   Howard is on the bench for WP and will definitely come on sometime during the game.   The guy I am looking out for is JP Du Plessis - have a look at that one and tell me what you think.

Moz as per usual you miss the point - Carter is able to create space for his backs at times, hence the fact that the AB 12's are more productive than the Bok 12's - its down to patterns of play.

But on the topic of Nonu, fact is prior to his good game against the Argies last week, people were calling for his head as he had been so ineffective - so while your stats paint a prettier picture, they are as usual flawed.

What part of Morne not able to ignite his backs vs Carter being able to ignite his backs do you not get.

Given the modern defences, I'd expect 30 to 40m a test by an inside centre to be about par with a 10 like Carter and Goosen on board - with Morne at 10, one would be lucky to see 10m by an inside centre - get it?

Damn right I believe the stuff I write, for its FACT

Carter and Goosen create, Morne stifles - its that simple - wake up

What I am surprised about is how little the medical condition regarding Steyn's ankle is taken into account. Apparently there is loose bone floating about which causes pain and swelling etc. Now how in the world do you train properly and thereafter play at your best? Surely this has a huge bearing on the average form we saw.

To me Frans has it all and I am hoping he will blossom next year.

Mike I agree re Jordaan. What is also very good about him is that he creates for others as well. I am not too fussed about his exclusion this year as another Super 15 campaign should do him good and after that he should be really ready for other step up. Meyer will probably take him on tour an dhe will benefit from some egame time.

Its hard not to be upbeat about the fortunes of the Boks right now.

Beeno

This is in fact a theoretical argument and a continuation of their earlier disagreements on this particular issue.   The absence of Steyn is a fact accompli - but the issue is what is to happen next year.   The Super 15 will be a good indicator of what is going to happen next year. 

Embarrassingly wrong again Dave. 

"With Morne at 10 one would be lucky to see 10m by an inside centre" ....you bluster. Well Jean has averaged over 4 m a carry playing next to Morne over 3 years.

SCHHHHHHHHPLOTTTTT

And talking about Taute you say:

"what he did do was beat the first defender with a step almost every time he got the ball"

Well he ran 7 times, gained 15 m and beat 2 defenders. At best he beat the first defender twice....or let's see perhaps he beat the first defender and the second defender once? Hahahaha

SCHPLOTTTTTTT.

Hasbeen, your penchant for big fatties, is beginning to rival Dave's. Frans Steyn has never been a succesful inside centre. Like Fury he was lost for gas against Fiji in the RWC07. Now 5 years and 10kgs on, he is almost a statue out there. He is gone, and he wont return at centre. That experiment, like Jean at 13, Hougaard at 9 and Pienaar at 10 has failed.

When I first saw Frans I thought he could be a dominating flyhalf....somebody who could outplay Carter because of his physical gifts. But he hasn't developed....he is not even as good as he was in his first year. And he has no vision.....zero. He can't see the role of his fellow players, the spaces on the field, the flow of play. It's all opaque to him.  He is slow of thought, slow of foot....best played at 15.

Ah Moz you and your pathetic stats which never paint the true picture, why not just rely on the actual footage instead of stats which mean so little, given they take no account of context at all.

Yeah good one, so we have all been mistaken over the years and good old Morne has always been a passmaster at getting his backs away, we have been playing attractive attacking rugby with Morne at 10 - get real.

As for Taute, again context, I watched the match again last night and everytime he got the ball he beat the first defender when he took it up.........that is the skill element I refer to, the fact that he hit contact after beating that first defender is where context comes into play - something your wonderful stats fail to pick up on.

Moz live with it. Morne was the cause of our poor backline efforts, Jean has been at best average under Meyer, Goosen ignited our backs for the first time in ages and Taute had a great debut - all FACTS

Beenkop, one thing you have to realise when it comes to Moz and centres, is that he knows stuff all about what constitues a good centre.......hell he has always been anti Fourie, one of our best 13's ever - need one go any further.....but why not? We then had him telling us all how fantastic the pathetic Adi Jacobs was, not to mention his pro Meyer Bosman who is not even good enough to play CC rugby. Hell then it was the turn of Jean at 13 or better still lets bring back long past it Joubert at 13. Moz does not have a clue.

Frans is a class act and will be our 12 for years to come. Jean was a great 12 in his day, Frans is just as good.

 Morne Steyn was the cause of the backline problems. 

Many of the metres gained by the outside backs are when Morne gets skipped out of backline moves.

Morne is not the first Flyhalf in South Africa to kill backline play. Others that spring to mind are Braam Van Straaten, Louis Koen. 

Hopefully we shall not have another flyhalf that gets selected firstly for pole kicking. It needs to be an all round player.

I would have preferred Jantjies at flyalf than Morne Steyn when Goosen was injured. That was if Lambie was at 15. Although either would be a better bet than Morne, especially a really out of form Morne. 

Jean Devilliers had a good game, but Frans Steyn can pass better than Jean. 

Regarding Frans the answer will come as Mike says in next years Super 15.

Frans Steyn is 110kg and 25 years old. The problem is the extreme views expressed. We can all agree with Moz that he is not playing at the level one would have hoped. But he was neither that good or that bad - just average. He looked to be going a bit better against NZ.

Can he lose weight - well of course he can,Can he getter fitter - obviouly but its difficult to train with loose bone floating around in your ankle. I believe Meyer will get him right and am ceretainly not ruling him out.

I personally do NOT agree with the assesments made of Jean. Firstly he has operated at 13 with very little ball. I also thingk he could thrive at 13 given a decent 12 and 10. The whole idea that the Bok backline has changed only because Morne has gone in patent nonsense. One simple comment blows that one out of the water. Explain how the bulle whipped the Chiefs by some 50 points in a final if Morne couldn't run the ball 9Or other instances of try fests re the Bulle whilst Morne was playing flyhalf) if that was required. No he may not be quite as fluent a running flyhalf as Goosen but what was very differrent was the focus on quick ball and attack against OZ. It was not just Goosen.

Moz has a point to consider. Frans at 15? I have some doubts about both Kirchner and Lambie (would have loved to see Lambie start agains the abs to see what he can bring to the table).  How solid is Lambie? We know what we have now very clearly in Kirchner.  If one did rule out these two then who. We fall back to Taute and Frans.

So who do we see as our future center combo. Here we have Jan Serfontein, Jordaan, Taute, Frans, Smallsmith, Du Plessis De Jongh, Rhule, Mapoe. To me there is a dearth at fullback at the moment if Taute and Frans are our future Bok center combo.  Who really is there of international class re 15. Ludik? Not for me. Daniller comes close but also is not a youngster. Aplon and Joe - no also not young and too small.  Aplon may do as an impact player in the short term.  But he will be 30 on 6th October and is slowing up a tad so is not a long term solution - by 2014 he is 32. By 2014 one wants all the pieces in place 

Its a problem Meyer will have to work through. Then as we do not contract centrally he has to persaude the franchise concerned to play the player in his (Meyers) preferred position for that player - a recipe for disaster as we have seen with players such as Pienaar and Frans and Lambie. Lets hope he is very persausive!

Long term planning and stock taking needs to be done. This whole issue of central contracting needs to be tackled.

The most impressive attacking performance by a young South African centre was that of Jordan in the S15.....he beat 2 defenders, made one scintillating clean break and gained 46 metres in only 4 carries, more than any other Shark. But he also missed two of his nine tackles, a weakness that had been apparent in prior games.

Taute also had a decent game last week against Oz. This was in a test, but I think the Chiefs backline  Jordaan faced was more impressive. And whileTaute impressed with some clinical low tackles,  his running was ordinary, gaining less than 2 metres a carry. Not exactly the beating his opponent at will view Dave espouses.

So we have two different 13 candidates.....a big defender and a slick attacker. Given this is Souith African rugby, the smart money would be on the blocky defender.

The most impressive attacking performance by a young South African centre was that of Jordan in the S15.....he beat 2 defenders, made one scintillating clean break and gained 46 metres in only 4 carries, more than any other Shark. But he also missed two of his nine tackles, a weakness that had been apparent in prior games.

Taute also had a decent game last week against Oz. This was in a test, but I think the Chiefs backline  Jordaan faced was more impressive. And whileTaute impressed with some clinical low tackles,  his running was ordinary, gaining less than 2 metres a carry. Not exactly the beating his opponent at will view Dave espouses.

So we have two different 13 candidates.....a big defender and a slick attacker. Given this is Souith African rugby, the smart money would be on the blocky defender.

Yet again complete and utter rubbish. For a start Taute at 13 for the Lions gained more metres and made more breaks than any other SA 13 in the S15, he was in the top 10 list on both accounts for the competition as a whole.

The lad has hardly made a name for himself as a defender, its his attacking skills that have won him a Bok cap as evidenced by the fact that everytime he took an opponent on last weekend he beat them through skill - FACT - so as per usual your take is way off. Taute made more of an impression at 13 on debut than Jean has all season at 13 for the Boks.

Dave I do so enjoy your insane ramblings....speaking of which, what led you to dump InZane Kirchner? For the last two years you have been telling me what a great fullback he is....now suddenly Meyer is failing in his duty if he doesn't drop him. Anyway, I told you so....hahaha.

What's a bet next year you will be campaigning to drop "old man Frans Steyn".....these nutter cycles of yours are as predictable as the next eclipse.

Ah yeah Moz, you never fail to trump yourself don't you. Your history of fabrication when it comes to me and my calls is legendary.

A little reference to the facts might help here - Kirchner has never made my starting Bok side at 15 ahead of Lambie, EVER

I am a Kirchner fan, but Lambie has always been the better option. Kirchner would be my back-up.

Your take on my take on Kirchner, seems to follow a pattern - if we believed your word, the likes of Ludik, Murray, Greyling and co would have all played ahead of Lambie, Fourie and Beast

Stick to the facts Moz, fabrication carries no weight and only serves to make your name mud

No Dave the pattern is......some young kid has a decent game in the S15, often because the oldsters are just pacing themselves.......you discover the kid......he plays a few more games.....you put him in your squad of indeterminate size......you announce the coach should pick the kid ahead of Old Man Incumbent.....eventually the kid plays for the Boks, and is ordinary but not terrible.....you announce the arrival of a new genius only discovered by you.....the kid has a few bad games, you don't see the missed tackles and lack of running......the coach drops him, you go ape, telling us what a fool the coach is.....the kid plays on and two years later has finally reached test competence, he is doing a decent job......but you have seen a new kid you like.....you announce the new kid should replace the old kid, who is now past it.....etc

That's the pattern Dave.

Well take our last game for instance, in comes Goosen and Taute as youngsters and our game improves tenfold - you see the pattern?

When have I called for the heads of older players like Beast, Bismark, Jannie, Bekker and JP?

I just know when an older player has past it and when better youngsters are about - that was my call on Morne, not that he should ever have been there in the first place. The same call goes for the head of Jean - his day is done and there are better youngsters about - same with Alberts, Kirchner, Pienaar and other players in the sqaud that should not have been there in the first place like Cilliers, Liebenberg, de Jongh, CJ, J.Potgieter and the likes.

Our best players at the moment happen to be the youngsters like Goosen, Taute, Jantjies, Coenie, Etzebeth and Coetzee that are already in the mix. Hougaard should be another if he had been left at 9. We have a host of other kids who should be looked at who are far better options than these hasbeens or never beens.

We have a core in JP, Habana, Frans, Hougaard, Beast, Bismark, Strauss, Jannie, Bekker, Louw and Brussouw - the rest of the side should be made up of the current youngsters plus other talents like JJ, Jordaan, Kitshoff, Steph du Toit, Kolisi, Elstadt, CJ Stander and the likes

 kingcorn,

    You cannot be serious about your Sharks backline for next season.

Viljoen and McLeod are not S15/Currie Cup standard players and don't deserve to wear the Black/White jersey at anytime.

Both these guys have caused the Sharks to lose games that they should have won...bad passing, dropped catches and simply do not fit in the Sharks side/style of play.

The guys who brought Viljoen to Durban should be shot at dawn for their blunder.....