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FORUM / RUGBY /  Gordon D'Arcy confirms my take on Jesse Kriel

Gordon D'Arcy confirms my take on Jesse Kriel

Started by Mozart34 REPLIES1,073 VIEWS· 24 Sept 2015, 16:16
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MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Sept 2015, 16:16
#1
24 Sept 2015, 16:16#1

This was hushed up by the SA media and all the fantasy peddlers on the Board. But D'arcy's description matches my post match take....the only one I could find on any SA rugby blog. This is of course why Kriel is not starting against the big Samoan backs.

 

Gordon D’Arcy: Surviving at centre not easy – just ask Kriel

Rugby supporters may not know who is to blame for mistake – but your team-mates will

South Africa’s young centre Jesse Kriel looks stunned after Japan’s Karne Hesketh scores the winning try during the Pool B match at Brighton. Photograph: Charlie Crowhurst/Getty Images

Gordon D'Arcy

Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 07:08

First published:Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 07:08

Centre as an art form begins with defence. Not tackling, defending. Japan’s Ayumu Goromaru running through the Springbok defence unharmed was a replica of Brian’s try against Cardiff in 2012 that I mentioned last week. Exact same move. If nothing else Eddie Jones and Joe Schmidt are eternal students of the game.

Jesse Kriel, the young South Africa 13, made two of the worst reads a centre can make during that sequence and for the winning Japanese try.

Both times Kriel broke a golden rule of defending in midfield: stay relevant.

A centre must develop spacial awareness to survive in Test rugby. If you get too close to an attacker, you end up following him into the space and it’s almost impossible to get back out. It’s about hovering two or three yards outside the tackle area so if he doesn’t get the ball you push off to the next guy.

If you dive into that hole and don’t make a clean tackle you disappear from view and it looks like someone else has missed a tackle. Your team-mates know who is to blame. So does your coach.

So, probably, did Eddie Jones. Kriel is 21 and a genuine talent who has played a lot of rugby at fullback or wing. It showed.

Japan flooded the space Kriel should have been holding and he took the bait. Then he emptied their outhalf late to leave a gaping hole for their blindside winger to run into. That might look like a worthwhile exercise to the untrained eye but rugby players know what he did.

For Japan’s winning try he was handed off by Al Mafi as punishment for invading the space too early. That forced the covering Springbok defender to go towards Mafi and leave JP Pieterson with a two-on-one scenario.

High stakes

High pressure, high stakes, two bad decisions by a young outside centre and South Africa lose the game.

CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Sept 2015, 16:43
#2
24 Sept 2015, 16:43#2
This was discussed already extensively elsewhere - so nothing new on your part.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Sept 2015, 17:35
#3
24 Sept 2015, 17:35#3
Wrong Pervert. I raised it originally....it never appeared once in any South African rugby site. Not honestly, not directly. It was verboten
Now a very experienced international centre has confirmed what I said, down to the last detail....so much for all your and Dave's lies.

You morons think we are doing players like Kriel a favour catapulting them into tests without appropriate S15 and bench time. We aren't, we are destroying their careers.NZ never does it....learn from the professionals.

DB
DbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
24 Sept 2015, 18:06
#4
24 Sept 2015, 18:06#4
 Moz, I copied this exact article in another threas. I did edit the text, so it looked different. It wasn't discussed actually, but after reading all that, you seem to focus on the negatives alone, yet you ignore the same kind of errors made by the players you punt? I think I have quite a moderate or ballanced take on things and I agree with your views more often than not, but lately it looks like your first impulse is to oppose Mike and then use reason to prove you are right and he's wrong...and the same applies for the "other side"From where I'm sitting its two sides of the same coin. I never thought I'd see the day on a site, when Beenz is in the mid range for being contrary just for the sake of it.
Flashdakota
Flashdakota
Club Pro805 posts
Flashdakota
FlashdakotaClub Pro805 posts
24 Sept 2015, 18:19
#5
24 Sept 2015, 18:19#5
 As I said before...
Stick with him. He is still so young. Let him develop in 1 position otherwise he'll end up no better off than Brent Russell!
BE
Beeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
24 Sept 2015, 18:24
#6
24 Sept 2015, 18:24#6
 What the good Dr needs to note was thst.the backline against the abs was the best we have seen for years.Completely outplaying the wee abs. To play a balanced game we need to field a tight 5 and a balanced loose trio. Given we play Lood and Etzeberth we could afford to play a superb flyer like Jaco Kriel. Given some intelligence and rugby acumen the possibilties are great.
DE
DezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
24 Sept 2015, 18:26
#7
24 Sept 2015, 18:26#7
The players Moz punts do not make those kinds of errors as at centre. We have disagreed on the composition of the pairings but one thing we agreed on was line integrity. I highlighted this in Damian all year, being too reactive and exposing your channel. It's undeniable what Kriel did, but I still think he has real potential, but the WC is too much for him in my opinion. Not one to rise to the challenge, yet. Damian floats around and ball watches, a cardinal sin on defence. 
DB
DbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
24 Sept 2015, 18:31
#8
24 Sept 2015, 18:31#8
 Agreed flash. Blood them young in a team with some xp around them. Some seems to think that xp is the only yard stick. How do you gain xp if you don't play? The only way he will learn, is to play at the highest level. From what I've seen from him it will be a steep learning curve. If Jean was match fit and in form, fine, but he isn't and it's unfair on him as well. He's risking his reputation on hope.Having said all that, we will be fine on Saturday.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Sept 2015, 18:41
#9
24 Sept 2015, 18:41#9

Draad you either think a player is good enough or not....being middle ground is sitting on the fence. I have said the following players were never going to make it in tests:

 

Mvovo, Kirchner, JJ, Stepfontein, Taute, Jantjies, Reinach, Lambie at flyhalf, Hougaard at scrumhalf. Pray tell, where was I wrong?

 

About Allende I have said from last year onwards his defence is not good enough....that he doesn't get structure. About Kriel I said he has enough talent to deserve a shot.....but that doesn't mean exposing him before he is ready. The Kriel momentum rests on two "cut onto the ball" tries he produced in the RC. But were those the act of a centre or the act of a fullback? It's quite possible he will never be comfortable in the hurly burly of centre play....be more effective at 15.

 

 

Your assumption that I am not totally honest in my take, am somehow so low that I would allow opposing Mike to influence my honesty....is offensive. I have run two Fortune 500 companies and been lead director of two Fortune 100 companies...I have some integrity.

 

I put some value on being honest.

 

 

Flashdakota
Flashdakota
Club Pro805 posts
Flashdakota
FlashdakotaClub Pro805 posts
24 Sept 2015, 18:48
#10
24 Sept 2015, 18:48#10
 Moz, who would you like to see at 12 and 13 during the RWC?
DB
DbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
24 Sept 2015, 18:52
#11
24 Sept 2015, 18:52#11
 I know you do and I'm not saying you are dishonest, I say that it looks like your spat with Mike and us Barkers clouds your judgement a bit. I wasn't questioning your integrity, and apologise if it looks like I did. I agree with almost everything in your last post, where we differ is that I believe that while Jean is still on the way back, he should start from the bench and in less crucial tests, the youngsters should ne given more play time. I'm also not too comfortable with Thor starting tomorrow. 
AB
ABasquefan
Pro2,549 posts
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
24 Sept 2015, 18:55
#12
24 Sept 2015, 18:55#12
 @mozart,

"Wrong Pervert. I raised it originally....it never appeared once in any South African rugby site. Not honestly, not directly. It was verboten"  

It has been discussed here since yesterday
14. Another Shocker by the Fool - Meyer



P.S. it's so bad taste calling someone pervert with no reason once and again,...... it only reflects its author qualities (or better said, the lack of them)
DE
DezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
24 Sept 2015, 18:58
#13
24 Sept 2015, 18:58#13
Draad, you fall for the race driven argument: if he plays for a really long time he will learn to be good enough... eventually... maybe. Sadly that is never the case in almost every instance. If a player isn't good enough today, why will he be better tomorrow? Having more experience being beaten and outclassed by your peers makes you better? Sounds like a recipe for failure to me. Damian hasn't shown the slightest improvement on defence in two years. Lambie, no improvement at all in six. These players make your argument impossible to defend. Moz and I are picking out who can and cannot do the job. Simple as that.
@Mozart: Your point about Kriel coming onto the ball is a good one. Kirchner did the same things in 2010 against Ireland at 13. Didn't make him an outside centre but a fullback displaying how to enter the line and run onto the ball. A similar point I mad e about Jean and his intercepts and breaks, the instinct of a wing. Right now though, minus de Jongh, I think JP would be better at 13. At least he can tackle with physical force and has several years experience there. 
AB
ABasquefan
Pro2,549 posts
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
24 Sept 2015, 20:01
#14
24 Sept 2015, 20:01#14
 "Gordon D'Arcy confirms my take on Jesse Kriel"

what an arrogance!
D'Arcy doesn't confirm nothing. What you are trying to do during the whole week is to blame the players you don't like for the Japan loss and D'Arcy says nothing about it.
And you are trying to blame the players you don't like (Kriel and Lambie) to exonerate Meyer just because you've been backing him.

Nobody discusses that Kriel and Lambie had a bad (or even a very bad) day. Personally I think that Kriel was hugely over-rated after having a good and very lucky game against the AB (he was forgiven at least 3 penalties for not relishing being the tackler and his try came after breaking the defensive line through Nonu who was injured and had to leave the field just after it). I never rated lambie as a good test flyhalf,... but he's the best you have in SA. And both like the rest of the team had an awful game.

But this is not the question. It's not about the performance of specific players and changing the underperforming. This is about a disastrous building of the team by Meyer during the last 4 years which includes giving too much responsability to youngs who are still green (Kriel is not the only one, Pollard can also be included). The main characteristic of Meyer's tenure has been the unconditional bet for his old guard and the paralysis of their replacement by the youngers made step by step. Instead they have been thrown into the deep when there was no other choice, when the oldies were injured or when it couldn't be more evident that they were completely out of form (case of Morne).
The result: a team made of a lot of underperforming oldies and some inexperienced youngs. This is one of the main reasons of the japanese debacle.
There are others, like the relics used as tactics, the ultra-conservative way of Meyer,.... but not the preformance of a single player. This was a collapse of epic proportions and you are trying tirelessly to blame a player's single missed tackle for it ?


DE
DezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
24 Sept 2015, 20:18
#15
24 Sept 2015, 20:18#15
Damian didn't create anything on attack in the RC and still Pollard is insistant on looking for contact. Saffers will never understand the concept of running lines and fixing defenders. Kriel did run his lines well in set plays but he hasn't shown anything in general play. Centres who cannot create space are almost worthless; centres who cannot create space or defend are entirely worthless. i'm still not convinced about Kriel and stand by my evaluation that they were both outplayed in the RC, especially by Australia and Argentina. 
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Sept 2015, 20:54
#16
24 Sept 2015, 20:54#16
 Low Life
All i said was that the article was posted and that your posting was dealt with previously.  As [per normal you rushed into a personal attack on members without checking you facts.   Try the thread with the Heading "Another Shocker by that Fool Meyer" - where the team announcement was discussed - it was there.
Now lets face facts - you assessment of player performances are totally dishonest and your support your statements you8 have no hesitation about lying.   The total basis for condemning playerz is based entirely on the fact of whether the player is a selection threat to one of your favourites,   
I will give you three examples to support my statement as to the above:-
*   The attack on De Allende and the glorification of Frans Steyn was done simultaneously with a strong campaign to get Steyn selected as inside center.  When it was pointed out to you that Steyn has a worse defending record and is useless in attacking play - the next gem on your part is that Steyn's stats does not reflect his value in the team - the opposing players are frightened out of their wits merely by his  presence on the field of play.   However, the big lie was the missed tackle on Kuridrani - where you lied outright by stating that De Allende was lined up to defend against Kuridrani - while in fact De Jongh was so lined up and Kuridrani just ran to  De Jongh's inside without any tackle attempt by the latter and De Allende had to run from the inside to try and tackle Kuridrani and he missed the tackle.   The dead quiet of yours was also left unnamed and that is that as a result of the tackle attempt Kuridrani fumbled the ball three to four meters further and the only effect of the tackle miss was a scrum awarded to the Stormers.
*    Then lets look at the constant campaign against Lambie.  The sole reason all along was your support of Morne Steyn and the misrepresentations on that part are legendary.   Morne's disastrous performances in 2012 was ignored as if it did not happen.  His bugger-up of Morne in the Perth test last year was papered over by you with a statement that it never happened before and is just a one-off problem - while it happened 7 times in none tests preceding the said test matches.   Same with Morne's poor tackling and rubbish decision leading to Messam's second try in that match was also papered over by you.  The funny one was that the penalty kick converted by Lambie to win the test against the AB's was not a "pressure kick"
*    The attack on De Jager after the Aussie test this year where he was the outstanding player inasmuch as he called the ball to come to him 16 times and it only went to Etzebeth once - was an outright lie and comprehensively proven as such.  This because Matfield was poor in that match and De Jager was brilliant when he replaced Matfield after the latter was injured.   De Jager must be maligned at all costs - under no circumstances must he be a selection threat to your favourite Matfield.
If your descriptions of what happened in the field of play concerning players were not so inaccurate one could think you acted on a bona fide basis - but it is normally so falsified it is totally unbelievable.
In the latest case Kriel was "smashed" when he tried to make a tackle - while there was no evidence he was "smashed" as stated by you.   He missed the tackle - but to give a false description is typical;ly to be expected from you.  You went for Kriel - but when De Villiers missed a tackle leading to a Japanese try - nothing was ever said about that missed tackle.
Incidentally the only player smashed in a tackle attempt was Jannir when the one Japanese wing was carrying the ball and Jannie attempted a tackle.  The wing just pushed him off and Jannie ended up on his backside - nothing was sad by you on that "smashing" of Jannie.
Best advice for any member is to just realize that you have ulterior motives you praise or criticize players and that your player assessments are in the main gross distortions.           
        
DE
DezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
24 Sept 2015, 21:23
#17
24 Sept 2015, 21:23#17
"Incidentally the only player smashed in a tackle attempt was Jannir when the one Japanese wing was carrying the ball and Jannie attempted a tackle.  The wing just pushed him off and Jannie ended up on his backside - nothing was sad by you on that "smashing" of Jannie."

You seem to be very confused Michael. Interesting tactic: call someone stupid or fallacious and then proceed to make a very contradictory statement the likes of which you accused someone of doing in the very same post! 
DB
DbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
24 Sept 2015, 22:17
#18
24 Sept 2015, 22:17#18
 WTF Fox, race driven argument? I never said Kriel is the solution at 13, but a few lapses on defence does not constitute writing him off.  Some of the proven players makes the same errors and Pollard has the same lapses on defence as Kriel and Damien. AND, they didn't do too badly against Nonu and Smith...actually did better on attack against Ozz & NZ than any other center combo in recent years. I still see potential, you don't even want to entertain the idea it seems.











DB
DbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
24 Sept 2015, 22:26
#19
24 Sept 2015, 22:26#19
 Basque, I agree with you on the way youngsters were basically set up to fail. Some did surprisingly well, but it is silly to expect that they should all hit the deck running.
DE
DezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
24 Sept 2015, 22:43
#20
24 Sept 2015, 22:43#20
Draad, I meant the logic of the race argument. I'm not writing Kriel off completely but I can see quite clearly that he does not have the makings of a great 13. And Pollard does not have the lapses the likes of which Damian or Kriel have. Pollard is a very sound defender both technically and positionally and can hit with far greater force than either of those two. Kriel's problem is that he is in the most difficult defensive position on the field. Damian on the other hand fluffs the vast majority of his tackles, even the majority which are ticked off as a success on the stats sheet are failures. Even worse is his positioning, violating every single defensive assignment ruck after ruck. 
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Sept 2015, 22:56
#21
24 Sept 2015, 22:56#21
 FD
Your match descriptions are so inaccurate and cooked that one has to wonder about how you can even compare De Allende as a center with.  Everyone in SA is wrong - DG is the only one who writes so much drivel about him.  
De Jongh is absolute BS in capital letters and failed badly in defense on a constant basis in Super 15 and is non-existent in attacking rugby ability - but you rate him as a center.
And you also rate Fat Fransie .  the biggest flop as a center in any SA Super 15 franchise.   That makes your opinions the joke of the century.
And Jannie did a Fransie when the Japanese wing pushed him off when Jannie tried to tackle him - with Jannie landing Steyn-style on his backside - it was even in the highlights package on Boots&All tonight.

   
Flashdakota
Flashdakota
Club Pro805 posts
Flashdakota
FlashdakotaClub Pro805 posts
24 Sept 2015, 23:32
#22
24 Sept 2015, 23:32#22
 Clevermike


FD or DF?
DE
DezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
24 Sept 2015, 23:51
#23
24 Sept 2015, 23:51#23
Shall I recount the attempted tackle by Damian on Frans? The one where Damian looked like he was trying to pole dance on poor Fransie? 
How about being run over for a game winning try against Australia? Just like Serfontein the year before, another player you backed. 
DB
DbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
24 Sept 2015, 23:57
#24
24 Sept 2015, 23:57#24
 Flash, he was speaking to DF, but the FD was intentional and an acronym for something other than Flash Dekota. Nifty play of letters, but forgetting the fact that that you are around too.
DE
DezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
25 Sept 2015, 00:32
#25
25 Sept 2015, 00:32#25
 Nifty play on letters? So those blocks at playschool weren't a total waste of time? LMAO!!
DB
DbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
25 Sept 2015, 00:46
#26
25 Sept 2015, 00:46#26
 Fox, back in Mike's day, there were no play school and definitely no blocks with letters on them.
DE
DezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
25 Sept 2015, 04:01
#27
25 Sept 2015, 04:01#27
 I suppose letter blocks in 2800 b.c. was a tad unrealistic. My apologies.
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Sept 2015, 05:09
#28
25 Sept 2015, 05:09#28
Desert Disaster
Was it necessary for Fat Fransie to end up on his ass on the grass TWICE when he tried to tackle De Allende in the Stormers game.   Your description of what happened was laughable.
By the way I can remember what you wrote about what Fat Fransie did in that game.   Because what Fransie did was so useless in that game all you wrote was - must have been 20 times - Fransiue ran to take up his position in the backline.   Just a question - is that not what is expected from any center?   
Easy description of what happened in that game - De Allende showed up how really poor a center Fransie is.  Must agree with Plumtree when in 2013 he said cryptically - Fransie is NO CENTER.    He is so poor in line breaks and defenders beaten and so bad in defense - he is NO CENTER.          


MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Sept 2015, 05:18
#29
25 Sept 2015, 05:18#29
Flash it's not an easy call on the centres. I also had hopes for Kriel, but we cant take the defensive risk in what amounts to 6 knockout games. We will know more about Jean on Saturday, but he has never been as good at 13, and I have my doubts about his knee. Allende is a strong runner, but so far this international season those runs have produced no points.
So why not Frans  with his power, offload and huge boot at 12. 

Outside centre is anybody's guess, maybe Jean is the best of a bad set of choices.

At least with those two the technical stuff would be sorted. We give up open field running vs Allende and Kriel. But then as we saw against even minnows  like Japan, there is little open field at the WC.
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Sept 2015, 06:03
#30
25 Sept 2015, 06:03#30
 Fransie back in Mozart's book p- the biggest flop in center play over the last three Super 15 - the worst attacking record - the worst defending record of any inside center in the said period - the most inaccurate boot around.   Remember when I asked you about what Fransie has actually achieved over the last three years as a center - you could not find a single incident where he was any good and you came back with the statement that statistics do not reflect Fransie's value in the team - and something to the effect that the opposition is scared witless by his mere presence on the field.
The following is crazy:-
"At least with those two the technical stuff would be sorted. We give up open field running vs Allende and Kriel. But then as we saw against even minnows  like Japan, there is little open field at the WC."
Just one example of where you were wrong.  Did you watch the game between Scotland and Japan at all?   Or for that matter most of the other games?  Most teams  play modern rugby - we use the "Stampkar" version and came  short.  Please wake up to reality.
        
CL
CleanCut
Pro9,905 posts
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
25 Sept 2015, 09:20
#31
25 Sept 2015, 09:20#31
 
The facts have been twisted and misrepresented again ... as usual.

Milner Skudder has had one season of super rugby? Not only has he been selected for the All Blacks but has started each test. He's at the WC and has played both test matches there.

Same goes for Naholo. A talent shows itself and before you know it, they're playing test rugby for the current # 1 side in world ... and so they should be.

Fekitoa was brought in after only one season. He played last night.

Mozart is a very conservative person. He prefers having the talented players learn the Bok culture first. Have them spend a year tagging along on year end tours as baggage handlers ... watching the game from the side lines.

He is so outdated in his approach it's scary. Much like Meyer!!

 


SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
25 Sept 2015, 12:20
#32
25 Sept 2015, 12:20#32

Oh what a load of utter bloody rubbish. All of a sudden Kriel has an issue with his defence based on one miss against a Jap......that miss had stuff all to do with a poor read of the situation and everything to do with him going high, when he should have gone low


One miss does not define a player, for crying out loud. Kriel has never had an issue with his defence. Hell, he only missed one tackle that day whereas Jean missed two......are Jean's misses excused because they never lead to tries.......what utter ignorant horse shit this is.


A good coach which Meyer is not, would see the positives in Kriel and invest in him, given the star the lad is. Only a conservative prick would back a washed up has been like Jean to do the job, the same player who missed more tackles than the player he is replacing.


Its a disgrace the way both de Allende and Kriel have been treated by Meyer....the world over sung the praises of our newly found centre pair who made both the Oz and NZ centres look like amateurs.....these two have been rewarded with the utterly useless Jean taking their places and in the process putting and end to any attacking clout the Bok backs ever had.


Its a pathetically conservative selection by a pathetically desperate man.


The same issue applies to the very impressive Lood being overlooked for the utterly useless Matfield  

DE
DezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
25 Sept 2015, 13:22
#33
25 Sept 2015, 13:22#33
Well CC, I suppose you must have been happy when Damian and Kriel were thrown in and we lost every test in the RC? Damian was hopelessly outclassed in every game. 
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
25 Sept 2015, 13:28
#34
25 Sept 2015, 13:28#34

de Allende was outclassed in every test......that has to be the biggest bwhaaaaaaahaaaaaaa ever


You ignorant twit  

DE
DezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
25 Sept 2015, 13:53
#35
25 Sept 2015, 13:53#35
 
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