Hoow is the Springbok barometer standing after round 8

This is a difficult topic and very controversial and nic discussion topic:-

Fullback

In this case there could be motivation to include club rugby and specifically Wasps as well.

Taking that into account there are four players to be considered:-

1    Willie le Roux

2    Warrick Gelant

3    Andries Coetzee

4    Curwin Bosch

Wings 

1    Ruan Combrinck

2    Travis Ismaiel

3    Majosh Tambwe

4    Makazole Mapimpi

Centers

I do not like the idea of flyhalfs as center and since none of them did in fat played as center regularly Ihave ignordthat option.  

Twelves

1    Damian de Allende

2    Andre Esterhuysen 

3    Harold Vorster

4    Rohan Janse van Rensburg

Thirteens

1    Jesse Kiel 

Flyhalfs

1    Willemse

2    Du Preez

3    Pollard

4    Jantjies

I do not think it would be wise to select  Willemse as starting flyhalf at tis stage - but would put him on the bench with either Du Preez or Pollard starting

Scrumhalfs  

I think most members will o for Cronje -but to my mind he is prone to make mistakes

1    Embrose Papier

2    Louis Schreuder

3    Venter (Cheetahs)

No 8 

The problem is that Whiteley has thus far played very little rugby this year and for that reason it is not possible to look at present performances;

1    Jean-Luc du Preez

2    Pieter-Steph du Toit

Neither has played at 8 this year - but both have in the past played in that position.

There is talk about Vermeulen doing the rounds - but he has been showing very little for Toulon and that make shim not a candidate.

Flanks

Blindsiders

1    Jean-Luc du Preez

2    Pieter-Steph du Toit

3    Cobus Wiese

4    Franco Mostert

Opensiders

1    Roelof Smit

2    Kwagga Smith

3    Philip van der Walt

4    Siya Kolisi

Locks

1     Pieter-Steph du Toit

2     Lood de Jager

3    Snyman

4    Ruan Bothja

5    Franco Mostert

Props  

Tight Heads

1    Thomas du Toit

2    Wilco Louw

Loose heads 

1    Steven kitshoff

2    Tendai Mtawarira

3    Pierre Schoeman

Hookers

1    Malcolm Marx

2    Akker van der Merwe

3    Adriaan Strauss

The above list contains players marked 1 - those are the players based on performance as the top performers.   However there were on variation made - namely at flyhalf

Since you do not understand English I will give you the team selected in accordance with performance:-

15   Willie le Roux,  14  Travis Ismaiel, 13  Jesse Kriel,  12  Damien de Allende, 11  Ruan Combrinck, 10  Robert du Preez, 9  Embrose Papier,  8  Robert du Preez, 7   Cobus Wiese, 6  Roedolf Smit, 5  Pieter-Steph du Toit, 4 Lood de Jager, 3  Thomas du Toit, 2 Malcolm Marx, 1  Stephen Kitshoff

Replacements  :   16   Akker van der Merwe,  17  Tendai Mtawarira , 18  Wilco Louw, 19  RG Snyman, 20   Kwagga Smith, 21  Louis Schreuder, 22  Damian Willemse, 23  Lukhanjo Am

Listen I do not necessarily agree - there have been no top class performances at 8 - so I put in Du Preez or Du Toit in that position.   Same applies to the blindside flank situation - other than Wiese the rest of the blindside flanks were questionable - so if Du Preez is used at number 8 and Du Toit as a lock - the blindside flank position should go to Wiese.

Listen I do not necessarily agree - there have been no top class performances at 8 - so I put in Du Preez or Du Toit in that position.   Same applies to the blindside flank situation - other than Wiese the rest of the blindside flanks were questionable - so if Du Preez is used at number 8 and Du Toit as a lock - the blindside flank position should go to Wiese.

Van De Walt isn't a open side flank ... why put him there?

Wiese is by a long shot not test material yet. He's had one good game so far this season. That doesn't warrant his selection. Favoritism seems to be playing a part in these absurd selections, Mike. I see Lomp, De Allende and Kriel make your side as well ... should have known.

Kolisi has had a quite season ... as usual ... why is he even in the mix? It's definitely not because of this seasons performance. QUOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Thomas Du Toit has been cleaned up so many times on the tighthead side that I struggle to see how you can say this team is selected on performance this season. Wilco Louw is streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetsss ahead of him ... in fact, so is Dreyer .

Combrinck is a right wing ... Tambwe puts in one good showing and now he's part of the mix ... ???

It's the same old nonsense, Mike. Too many of your favourites ... not enough proper merit selections, here.

Thank the stars that you don't select the Bok side. 

CC

Very sorry but no favouritism or prejudice  applicable here -  only performance applicable 

Mozart

Unlike you think the above barometer is based on PERFORMANCE and is not distortions from your befuddled rugby mind,   It does necessarily imply that Prejudice, Distortions and Stupidity shall not be allowed to take over.    

15. Combrink (Big guy with a big boot not really pacy enough for the wing though)
14. Ishmael/ Inkosi ( Mad Dog* Madosh Tambwe was great this weekend but lets see how he goes over the rest of the season and under the highball.)
13. Am (Fits the criteria and can't be worse than Kriel or Mapoe defensively)
12. Pollard/Esterhuizen (Again a big guy that's putting his hand up at the Sharks. Am running off his shoulder or someone on an inside line could be put away with his ability to break the line and offload).
11. Mapimpi ( Great finisher and deserving of a
cap).
10. Du Preez / Jantjies (Horses for courses here. Elton with a pack going forward on a quick ground is class. Du Preez has been a bit iffy but good kicking. Pollard has looked good aswell but I would prefer him at 12).
9. De Klerk ( Has been on fire for Sale Sharks and while there will be an occasional brain fart, He just keeps going).

1. Kitschoff**.
2. Marx**.
3. Louw**.
4. Eben.
5. Du Toit.
6. Kriel.
7. Du Preez.
8. Whitely (Captain fantastic, the clues in the name).

There's alot of timber in that tight five that I feel you could play a ranging 8 and smaller fetcher. Also Marx has been the premier fetcher the last two seasons anyway.

* If that's not his nickname yet then he needa new friends.
** Pfffft as if I know what goes on in the dark recesses of the front row. Purely for their open play.

Just my two cents.

If Kriel or Eben aren't available then Kwagga and Mostert (how did I forget him). This would lighten the pack though so maybe a rejig.

As much as I'll always have a soft spot for the Beast (He's my sons favourite shark and the first He would recognise) I think it's time to move over and let the young uns feed at the trough so to speak. He does look like He's enjoying his rugby again though.

Schoeman has been impressive but aren't there rumblings of him packing off for Edinburgh or some such?

Alec Hepburn, Ellis Genge and Greg Bateman are all destructive looseheads with Genge being the best scrummager I think anyway. Louw will have to be on top form while Kyle Sinkler is no slouch on the otherside of the scrum. 

Mozart

I have seen a full retreat of Beast o n a few occasions = remember that test against Argentina where there were serious competition between him and Jannie as to whom could retreat faster.   

Problem is with Beast that he is good for the first three or four scrums and then he weakened substantially.

Xavi

I could obviously not rate Etzebeth and even Whiteley because of zro game time this year or near to it.   

If Pollard has a really bad weak spot it is defense,   Only Jantjies beats him  in that,   So playing Jantjies and Pollard together is like giving opposition teams an invitation to attack through the channel and their success rate is virtually assured,   Esterhuizen is not much more effective in defense than the afore-mentioned two - so having any combination involving one of the afore-mentioned will look for disaster,    Fact is Esterhuizen is a center in the fat Fransie Steyn's mould - very one-dimensional and in the main ineffective in attack.  Both are pace-deficient that allows the opposition to organize their defense.  

To my mind all three will be seriously questionable selections.

De Allende had a defense problem as well = but this year he ahs improced in that one and recovered some of his attacking and off-loading abilities.  Gact is he is the best=performing inside center this year.

The second-best performing SA lock this year has been De Jager - so he will somehow have to  be in the mix. 

I agree Oom Mike, De Jager and De Allende should be in there. One to hold the tackle shields and the other to carry the water bottles.

Mozart

There is one very clear issue here -  you are no learner since if you were you cannot learn anything  at all because you are  blinded by prejudice and ignorance and are unable to adjust your thinking to the present situation.

Besides that -  you are normally us ing distorted stats when it serve your arguments - so I a not surprised  that you invent rubbish when it fits your argument either,   Why are you not honest for a change and check the defense stats of Pollard and Esterhuizen,        

Xavi

The in past tests seriously flawed Jantjies has been promoted by you when in fact the best he can do is to carry water bottles.      

By the way I have included Esterhuysen as a rated center - but there are flaws and fact is he is not interested in passing balls and off-loads,    An effective crashballer - but then the recovery of balls us problematic,  

CC

Just go and check in what position Van der Walt played in every game he played for the Sharks this year - he always played at 6 - so that is the only position he can be assessed in. 

Mozart

I fully understand the above and that is exactly why I am so strongly opposed to some centers.   Fransie is a serious flop as a defender - in most ways worse than De Allende could ever be,

You make some assumptions that is either illogical or just plainly prejudiced and an example relates to Kriel as a weak tackler.   Where is your proof of that?   We know that Meyer and Ludeke as well as Marais nearly destroyed the player - but this year with Mitchell his performance in all respects - including his tackling improved drastically.

There was always a problem in SA rugby - bringing up the defensive line is basically the function of the flyhalf and to a lesser extent the inside center,   I am amazed that you come up with that now after years of stagnation with Morne at flyhalf and lately with Jantjies = both extremely weak defenders.  O ne case where you could have mentioned it was in the case of the famous Barrett try against the Springboks - where De Villiers  went out of the defensive line leaving the defense in tatters,

It is hard to understand your motivation for comments,   The above is logical - your interpretation of the abilities of players is tainted and consequently unreliable.                .   

Well, Mozart ... that is probably your best "101" lesson to date.

I think you covered it all quite nicely.

I see it's gone "whoosh" over Mike's head.

Mike ... the discussion is about Kriel and De Allende ... not Frans Steyn. Why are you changing the direction of this discussion and dragging former coaches into the mix?

Meyer and Ludeke haven't been part of Kriel's life for many moons now. Try to come up with a different excuse when you find yourself backed into a corner.

Players should have their tackle technique down pat by the time they get to big boy rugby. A little tweak every now and then from the coach should be sufficient ... but the foundation should already be in place. The coaches aren't to blame. 

I thought that Mozart's point 4 summed these two flawed players up perfectly.

We cannot afford to have either of these useless brain-dead entities in the mix. Not even on the bench.

CC

I think you cannot read properly,   Mozart has come up with a good summary of what is regarded -  but his examples in this case is simplistic and selective.  That is why I mention the issue of the flops Mozart never criticized  on the same basis,  Same can be said about yours,   Incidentally I referred to Kriel and mentioned also another dud coach - Marais.

However, I think you are going to have to face facts - our dislikes do not count.   At one stage  I said Van Rensburg is the better option at 12 and I did mention Esterhuysen as well.   However, it does not seem that Van Rensburg is even making the Lions starting team on a regular basis and if you re talking about brain-dead players start thinking about the crashballers as braindead.    There you would find your new hero Estehuysen.   

Saffex 

Just a question -  have you seen Willemse play and if so in how many matches?   Willemse is in fact at 19 a near to complete flyhalf -which Jantjies is not,  He will by next year be the automatic flyhalf choice.

With respect - fact is that Carr is probably your worst choice as a loosie on the bench - and as to Liebenberg be the starting 8 - there are a dozen loosies better than Liebenberg and Carr combined.

The Springboks have to have Kolisi - a real passenger - and cannot afford two even worse loosies in the 8 position.      Rassie has not invited the two to his camp and thanks heavens neither would be in the Springbok squad.            

Dave ... Tank Du Toit isn't a tighthead.

Kolisi has been poor this season and beside that he's not an openside flank. He's nothing more than a token to appease the clueless masses.  A quota.

Jantjies can't make the step up to test rugby. He has failed miserably at every attempt. He wouldn't make my squad.

De Allende doesn't have the brain that's needed to make a good test center. That and his inability to pass the ball disqualifies him outright. Simply useless.

Kriel is just another JJ. Center play is beyond him. It always has been. He needs to take tackle lessons from Mozart it seems.

Lood doesn't have the upper body strength to make it at test level. He depends solely on his size and weight ... but when it comes to pure physical dominance he find himself sadly lacking.He wouldn't make my squad. Nothing but a weed.

Dyantyi has had a few good matches. He's impressive run seems to have dried up though. He wouldn't make my squad. Much prefer Combrinck.

Liebenberg is an interesting choice. Is he a test player though?

I like Schoeman, Akkers, Nkosi and Gelant.

Carr is a joke ... lol!!! ... and so is Botha and Pollard.

The two best 10's in the country at the moment are Willemse and Du Preez.

I see you've moved on from HouGat.

CC

Just a question - when last did you see De Allende play?   Cannot be this year - since according to the commentators unlike any other center in SA Super Rugby teams he carries the balls in both hands leaving the situation that he is passing the ball freely and regularly,   Take for instance the game last Saturday.  He carried the balls  11 times (gainimg 52 meters) - he passed the ball 15 times.  The same was notable in all the games he played in this year - probably the reason why is the center with the highest average points  in Foxsport competition.

I grant you that De Allende developed problems in that regard - and in a way it stemmed from Meyer forcing him into  crashballing in the WC in 2015 and he did not get out of that groove in 2016 and 2017 - but this year that changed and he is much improved in performance.   I know you prefer to stick to your dislike and do not look at present performance - but that is entirely your business - the above is just to rectify one rather dubious statement as to his present passing game.

What a load of crock - is De Allende a better player this year than he was over the last three years?   Answer that one before you keep on talking crap.   The problem  is because of the crap you normally come up with one can never take heed of any objectivity on your part.   

My comments are based on what happened this year and not what happened over the last two years - when De Allende played sub-par rugby,   I looked at the way De Allende for instance was playing against SB  Williams - one of the top centers in the world today - and then make an objective assessment, something you are totally incapable of.    

Mozart

It is always difficult to determine how your mind works - it is normally fictional and far removed from what actually happened or just plain BS.

De Allende best years in Super Rugby was in 2013 and 2014.  In 2015 he was average in Super Rugby and the Meyer BS of using Burger as stand-in flyhalf destroyed his attacking ability in the WC - even though he was the player who beat most tackles  in that competition.    In fact De Allende's decline started in 2015 and continued in 2016 and 2017/

The question asked was sidetracked by you into something not asked - and that relates o a comparison between the 2016 and 2017 years compared to his performance this year.  So you have now stated which everybody not blinded by stupidity and prejudice have contradicted about de Allende''s performances this year.   The answer provided by you is utter BS as per normally expected from you,.      

One newspaper report on one game in 2015 is meaningless 0 the performance during the series as a whole is what counts,   Even the quote is questionable - every center imaginable would be better than De Jongh - he should not have been in the team - Huw Jones should have been, 

In the 2015 tests no center could produce anything with a lunatic game plan adopted by Meyer,   In any event - you are talking BS you know.  De Allende played in three tests before the  WC and the following was evident from the tests he played in:-

Australia            -    Attacking play exceptional

                                Missed tackle ratio  too high - better than Pollard though

New Zealand      -     Very good game especially in attacking play

Argentina           -     Poor game 

Argentina away  -     Good game

Not involved in Japan disaster                             

Samoa                 -     Very good performance

Scotland             -      Exceptional performance

USA                   -      Exceptional performance

Wales                 -      Very good  performance

New Zealand     -      Average performance

De Allende was the player with most tackle breaks of all centers in the 2015 WC,

Now be an honest person for a change and go and check the tests stats in 2015 and then come back and confirm your "implosion" statement,   Stupid to be caught out like you were in any event.