How are the hyped and pet-hate players doing in Europe

I did not see the Gloucester-Worcester game on TV - so the only thing I can rely on was the stats. 

Hyped Players 

Mostert

He only played for 8 minutes aand that is normally way topo few to make a real assessment, but what he did in the game was really poor.   In the 8 minutes he made no ball carries and -

*   made 2 tackles and missed 1; and 

*   gave away 2 penalties.

The 8 minutes was a dead loss to Gloucester.

Louw

Louw had his normal low work rate game with very few positives and some serious negatives - he was most of the time not at all visible in the game which I watched,.   So what did he achieved? 

*    He passed the ball 5 times and carried it 8 times for a meter gain of 2 meters;

*    He made 10 tackles and missed 2 and lost ball possession once

*    he gave away a penalty.

It was interesting to note that the Sales loosies made 45 tackles missing none as against the 16 tackles made by the Bath loosies 16 tackles made - missing 9 in the process.   

The above is certainly not good enough for an international player.

Pet hate players

Jaco Kriel

He started at  opensider flank for Gloucester and had an excellent game - he has top class stats in most components of the game as is evident from the following:-

*    He passed the ball three times - carried it 8 times for a meter gain of 38 meters;

*    He made two clean line breaks beating 5 defenders,

*    He made 5 tackles, missing none

*    Negative - he lost ball possession twice. 

He was three times the player Louw was in that game.

Jean-Luc du Preez

*    He scored a try

*    He passed the ball once but made 3 three off-loads

*    He carried the ball 10 times a meter gain of 17 meters;

*    He in the process beat 6 defenders,

*    He made 10 tackles, missing none

*    Negative - he lost ball possession once

Amazing how the pet hate players out-performed the players hyped up constantly by some members on site are not performing well = while the players they denigrate are performing better,.  

Now wait for another long drawn out myth that turns match  losers into match winners. 

Mozart

Gloucester played against Worcester and Bath played against Sale.

Problem I am not comparing players here - I am just showing what they did on the field of play and basically rely on their stats and what I saw in the Bath -  Sakes game.  Fact is that Mostert in 8 minutes did enough damage to the Gloucester effort as possible.

Louw was no good in the Bath Sales game which  I watched and saw the normal low work rate player we got used to.  His ball carries were pathetic and he made 10  of the 16 tackles made by the bath loosies - but showed nothing expected from a test player.  .

The other players stats were shown to indicate how well they did despite your constant denigrating of them.

I believe you rating of players are seriously flawed because it does not relate to performance and is entirely based on prejudice,        .     

No  -  I am NOT comparing players - I am just showing who statistically did well and who not.  Who was I comparing - certainly not Louw nd Du Preez.    Louw played at 6 and Du Preez at 8 - so I am not foolish to compare those two.

If there was any comparing done - it is between your picks based on performance deficiency and the performing players you cannot stand.      

Herr Lügnerin dancing on hot coals again, steps on his own feet and face plants for epic face melt . The writing was on the wall as he set himself up. 

No inconsistency - a diversion to avoid discussing of how the favourites and non-favourites perform on club level.  

I made a mistake of putting all the players under one thread and show up the duplicity by some embers on site.    

No  -  I am NOT comparing players

BUT

Amazing how the pet hate players out-performed the players

You can't tell if someone outperformed another without making a comparison, and by your own standard you cannot make a comparison if the players didn't play in the same game against the same opposition.

You again in another thread:

The only realistic comparisons can be made when players played in the same games and against the same opponents.   Any other story is a concoction of garbage any scientific evaluator will ignore, [..] What Mozart and AO do what they do  is statistical abuse and real BS in capital letters.

Aren't you guilty of statistical abuse now, Mike?

Pakie

OK - I used thee wrong terminology to get at the performance murderers on site.   I just mention the fact that the information about two players they constantly attack and two players they constantly defend do not perform to the level they are allegedly to by our local experts.   Nothing to do with comparisons between players.- just the fact that our local "experts cannot recognize the difference between good and poor performance because with them real performance counts for nothing.

Lie low you are on drift sands here .        

Cannot recognizer good performances? Here something to ponder:

Etzebeth: Etzebeth won the most lineouts this year (30), including the equal most steals (5). In addition to his lineout dominance, Etzebeth was nearly perfect in defence, completing 46 of his 47 tackle attempts. Etzebeth did not shy away on the offensive end, either, with the second most carries by a Springboks player (44), leading to eight tackle busts and 173 run metres.

Esterhuizen: Esterhuizen had the equal most starts at inside centre, a position riddled with injuries and selection changes. He featured in two of the Springboks’ three wins, contributing 27 carries for 185 metres, four linebreaks, a linebreak assist and 12 tackle busts. Esterhuizen was also excellent in defence, completing 26 of his 29 tackles.

Now, show me where Lood has been a standout Bok in any competitive test. 

I just mention the fact that the information about two players they constantly attack and two players they constantly defend do not perform to the level they are allegedly to by our local experts.

In other words, you compare their performances. That's how you can tell one is better than the other. By comparing.

Ag Mike, just admit that your whole "statistical abuse / same games same opponents" remarks was a silly blunder and let's move on.

In other words, Mike is a spider caught in his own Web. A lie web, if you will. 

Itsy bitsy Mikey went up the liar spout, out came sie Pakie and flushed the Mikey out. 

CERADONKEYBRAIN 

STATISTICS ALSO INDICATE WHAT PLAYERS IN THEIR OWN RUIGHT HAS DONE IN MATCHES.

So - another idiocy attack could have been avoided if you could think at a ll.

The Du Preez twins are coming into their own. Vermuelen and Louw near the end. When will the twins take over is the question. Very able players and surp risingly ou rooitwit gets it right for once!

Ceradunce 

Stats indicate how a player perform and one can judge from seeing the game and then see whether the  player meets requirement.   It his virtually nothing to do as to comparison with  other players unless there is a clear reference by the poster that he is comparing two players.

In this case there is no basis for comparison in evidence -  but that goes straight over your head ,  

In this case there is no basis for comparison in evidence

Oh? And this then:

Amazing how the pet hate players out-performed the players hyped up constantly by some members on site are not performing well

So by saying one player outperformed another you are not comparing their performances? If you are not comparing them, how then can you tell that one outperformed the other? The only way you can claim Player X did better than Player Y is by comparing them.

This hole is only going to get deeper, Mike. Just recant your "same game same opponents" heresy and all will be well again.

Well, Maaik, it's gone over mine (head) too.

Mozart

You are 100% correct when Springbok players playing in the same test are correct.   However, the above was not an effort to compare players playing for their clubs with an assessment on how they are performing for their clubs.   However, in the SH holiday period where no games are played until 12 February 2019, it is always  interesting to see how players from SA are doing for their clubs.

This may have a bearing on future test selections by Erasmus - whom I believe is keeping taps on all potential SA players wo could qualify for test selection in future - but also on existing Springboks playing in Europe.  

I just thought I would look and keep taps on all players - But did not include the French games the past weekend.  

Insofar as the latter is concerned - Frans Steyn again - the second week in a row - played dull back for Montpellier.   He in fat had a very good game at full back and his ball carries were very good.   Serfontein played - but showed near to zero before he was replaced - he was shown as been replaced - but no time was indicated when a substitution was made - meaning in essence that he was injured during the game.   .  

So lets look at what AO wrote about above.   He was daydremaing again and I checked the details he provided above.   It requires serious correction   

Etzebeth

He wrote about Etzebeth making 42 tackles missing 5.  So lets look at the number of tests he played in and then see how many tackles on average he made per match.    He made 10 tackles in the first match he played in missing 1.

So his tackling average in 7 tests played was    =    6 per match

If the one test he made 10 tackles are left out    =    5.33 per match

This must be seen in comparison to the much-maligned  Du Toit who averaged 12,21 tackles per match played.   So after a top class performance in his first return test insofar as tackles are concerned he dropped down to average less than 6 tackles per match.   That is totally unacceptable.

Etzebeth did very well in line-outs taking a high number of balls   But what is left out is he took 5 opposition throw-ins - who was the payer who took the same number of 5 balls in opposition throw-in?

Now for the number of carries:-

                                                    AO's   numbers         Real numbers    

Carries                                                    44                              51

Meter gains                                            173                             81

Defenders beaten                                       8                               5

In his first test Etzebeth made 48 meters in 14 carries = in the other 6 matches he made 37 carries with a 33 meter territory gain.                            

HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I PLEADED WITH YOU TO KEEP TO THE TRUTH WHEN YOU WRITE CONTRIBUTIONS ON SITE.

Esterhuizen

I did not even bother to check the BS you spout on site - a check on Etzebeth was all I needed to know that you were talking tripe again. 

I already posted those stats. The above is for the RC. Of all the core forwards, Eben had fewest missed tackles. Steph had the most missed tackles. That's not taking into account clean breaks, of which I cited at least 12 throughout the season, there is probably more. Whiteley was our most efficient defender when taking into account volume of tackles.

Considering that Steph was the rusher on the fringes, it's no surprise he had a high number of tackles. The question is this: is he accurate enough? He was almost flawless at home to Australia, but was porous in the first half against New Zealand in Wellington. He had other tests like this. So, it depends. Teams who play the ball along the pods were able to get around him often. He also had trouble making open field tackles. So he isn't faultless.

Interestingly, Kolisi accumulated almost as many tackles as Mostert. A review of tackle quality and primary tackles would be useful in determining his overall effectiveness. He was often enough seen being overpowered, but he may be one of our more integral defenders, with relatively fewer errors. 

Mozart

I checked the BS AO wrote on site and what he wrote is a total distortion and must be accepted as lies.   So try again - things are getting miserable for you two 

We all said Etzebeth was excellent in his first test and useless in the remainder of the tests.   So accept that no amount of lies and distortions would change that. 

And when it came to line breaks and defenders beaten Du Toit in the 7 matches played beat Etzebeth on both scores.   Why don't you go and check what you write on site.  You don't want to fall into the same trap as AO did. 

I have always been correct. For you to question me on a day where you broke your own criteria for comparing players, that's "getting miserable for you ". 

What stats did you use?  

No Mozart

Not a rear guard action - I from the start explained that it is worthwhile to see how players who are in the Springbok squad and even others who are often mentioned on site is performing for their clubs.   It is NO comparison between players  - it is rather to monitor what is happening to players playing club rugby in Europe.

They are not compared to any other players at all..

I should have added Frans Steyn and Serfontein to the list.   Both played for Montpellier - for the second week running Steyn played at full back and did very well.   Is that where he should be used all the time?   Serfotnein was sub-par, but I think he was injured fairly early in the match.          

Mozart - I clearly stated that Mostert played for 8 minutes,   so that was correct what I wrote.   You are trying to get away from the BS spouted by AO and for which you fell totally.