How good is Jake White?

No worries Sasuke, it's just that when I read Twatbok's pathetic, whiny little bleat about there being no difference between SA's 2007 win and NZ's 2011 win I felt acutely embarrassed and I just wanted you and other Kiwis to know that not all SA supporters are as delusional or as stupid as Twatbok.

And then we have Moffie who still doesn't understand the difference between wanting a team to win and thinking a team will win. By way of example, I'm a South African and I'd love to see Bafana Bafana win the FIFA World Cup in Brazil in 2014. However, knowing our national football team as I do, I think there's more chance of Moffie admitting he's a stupid, childish and deceitful old windbag than there is of Bafana Bafana winning the World Cup . . . so according to Moffie, that would make me some kind of traitor.

Wehe, the old fool really is losing the plot lately!

Polyboy, if you have some kind of guide or handbook that indicates how long it should take an international rugby team to recover after spending 2 decades in the rugby wilderness where they play no test matches against other nations and rely on their domestic provincial tournament for rugby then I'd be very keen to see it. Thanks!

Rooinek

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 26 RE: How good is Jake White?
February 27, 2013, 12:55:32

Capone, I believe that at any point in time, the candidates for the job of Springbok coach should be limited to whoever the current Super Rugby coaches are . . . so the people I'm referring to in this case are the 4 South African Super 12 coaches in 2004 . . . whoever those were.

PS I believe I went to some lengths to show why I disliked Jake as a coach as well as a person. If you missed them, go through my post again and separate the facts from opinion. That should help.

Wakey wakey. You have clearly forgotten what happened back then. The post was advertised and in the end the shortlist was Andre Markgraaff, Heyneke Meyer, Chester Williams and Jake White. It was close between Markgraaff and Meyer, with Markgraaff slighty in front. Then first Markgraaff and later Meyer pulled out. That left Chester and Jake. Jake got the nod and Chester was pissed off.

Jake then offered Chester one of the asst coaching positions. Chester did not even give him a straight answer but rather chose to run to Rapport and say that if he was not good enough to be the head coach, he was not prepared to be Jake's side-kick either. we all know where that eventually landed him.

Having read thru the bulk of posts it seems that those that see the subtleties that psychology plays in a winning team would agree that jake was a good coach / man manager. I can see this coming thru at brumbies too... 

I would also think that the politics at play in sa had lots to dissuade jake from staying on.

addtionally for any perceived negative traits from 2005 one would hope that jake as with most humans grows and matures... i personally would have no issue with the guy being the next wallaby coach because he would proabably bring a winning support team with him. And if he's survived politics in as he would have no dramas dealing with petty aru issues...

re suske and his defence of kiwis poaching islanders....... Hahahahahahahahaha you can't defend the indefensible

So Sas if we go through all the players playing S15 rugby for the Kiwi sides, we will find that most of them were in fact born in NZ?

Redsman, Jake was not dissuaded to stay on. He was forced out. Technically his contract was not renewed, but that was just a bit of twisting the truth. The truth is that he did not re-apply for the job in 2007 and he was not informed that he had to re-apply. He was not aware that he had to apply. OK, it was probably a bit cheeky from him, but he reckoned that it was stupid to be expected to re-apply for a job if he is the incumbent. The only thing om his CV that has changed, since the previous one was for the last four years, and SARU were fully aware of his performance and achievements. There was nothing that he could put on a new CV, that they didn't know already.

In addition, the whole process was started while he was away on the 2007 RWC and almost completed by the time he got back. What did SARU want of him? To disrupt his work at the RWC to sort out his application, which would have involved a business plan,etc?

Rooinek, you want a winning guide, hell just look at the All Blacks winning record and copy it.

No polyboy, you misunderstood me. I don't know how you jumped to the conclusion that I was asking for a guide to winning . . . perhaps English isn't your first language . . . but you definitely missed the point.

Either way, just so you know, I was actually wondering how anyone would know what a reasonable time frame would be for an international rugby team to recover after nearly 2 decades in isolation. What are you basing it on? Is there a precedent for this?

Polly ...

Has it ever occurred to you that a lot has changed in South Africa since the collapse of the apartheid era?

Has it dawned on you that South Africa has faced an assortment of issues over the last twenty years, all of which have influenced every aspect of the country … from filthy drinking water … to raw sewerage on our city streets … all the way to the sports fields … where the threat of complete annihilation hovered like a sword over the Springbok’s name and emblem …  to quotas … demographic representation … the selection of moronic coaches … all so that the govering authorities can feel better about itself???

They came at the Bokke from all sides with only one thing in mind … to destroy it …  We have spent most of the last two decades trying to protect and defend our heritage … and while this was going on we’re selecting the best team they'll allow us to, to play against the mighty All Blacks.

And you wanna know why we haven’t dominated world rugby … ???

Are you a complete fool?

Were you born like that or do you have to work on it every day?

The mere fact that we were able to compete against the best in the world and beat them,winning two world cups, with all this stacked against us, is in itself a testimony to what this nation can muster, if given a shot ... 

There’s a lot more to it than meets the eye.  

Right now, we have a nation that seems happy enough with the Bokke, it’s name, it’s emblem and what it supposedly represents. We are not so much in the politcal spotlight any more ... itouch wood ... t’s as if we’ve been given a bit of a breather from all the bullshit to actually get on with the game.

This is the best it’s been for a long, long time and that spells trouble for twats like you.

You guys have been allowed to strutt your stuff while the Bokke wore legirons. 

Those days are coming to an end ... then we'll see who dominates who.  

Do me a favour … the next time you post something on this site … try to use a little head …

 RooiAAS.....you call yourself a Bok supporter. But you make derogatory posts about the team and it's coaches all the time.....the Boks chances are slim to none and Slim just left town. The Boks are going to get beaten by the Lions, because they are going to be out coached.

Your glee and sarcasm about the team losing is not consistent with a supporter. Ask yourself the question, when last did you get any joy from a Bok win......my guess is, not since you were trying to persuade us Destroyli was a great coach.

@saffex,

"So Sas if we go through all the players playing S15 rugby for the Kiwi sides, we will find that most of them were in fact born in NZ?"

absoloutely saffex, while there are a few island born players in NZ clubs, the overwhelming majority of all players in every squad and even on ITM level are NZ born, it ALWAYS has been, feel free to hit me up on any players from any era, cos i remember a few here saying that tana umaga and jonah lomu were pacific island born players, LMAO, :oD

@bongani2,

"Jake was not dissuaded to stay on. He was forced out. Technically his contract was not renewed, but that was just a bit of twisting the truth. The truth is that he did not re-apply for the job in 2007 and he was not informed that he had to re-apply. He was not aware that he had to apply. OK, it was probably a bit cheeky from him, but he reckoned that it was stupid to be expected to re-apply for a job if he is the incumbent. The only thing om his CV that has changed, since the previous one was for the last four years, and SARU were fully aware of his performance and achievements. There was nothing that he could put on a new CV, that they didn't know already.
In addition, the whole process was started while he was away on the 2007 RWC and almost completed by the time he got back. What did SARU want of him? To disrupt his work at the RWC to sort out his application, which would have involved a business plan,etc?"

i distionctly remember an interview with jake white where he said he shouldnt have to reapply, they should of just given it to him. he siad that before the acutual deadline by SARU was set, because i remember thinking then, he has no one to blame but himself for not getting the job. ever since then i would always laugh my ass of every single time he would play the martyr.

the truth is, jake white didnt apply end of story. like u said he had nothing left to add on his CV, so why not just swallow his pride and apply for the job??? he could sit in the waiting room with the rest of the applicants where instead of a CV, he holds up the webb ellis cup.
if being a Bok coach really meant that much to him, he would of fought for his right to be Bok coach, wether he was incumbent or not, but pride comes before the fall, as evident by his zero coaching after winning a RWC until the brumbies had hit an all time low and hired him 5 years later.

@redman,

"re suske and his defence of kiwis poaching islanders....... Hahahahahahahahaha you can't defend the indefensible"

oh redman, u starting to sound an awful lot like beeno1 aka storminged with ur many comments with out any sort fo proof, the play ground argument im right cos i said so just dosent work as well as u think it does.

feel free to name one single player that the kiwis poached from the islands.

BTW heres a beautiful looking team made up of from the australian clubs,,,

1 pek cowan - force
2 ged robinson - rebels
3 albert anae - reds
4 toby lynn - force
5 james king - rebels
6 peter betham (usually a wing, but at 6"3 and 100kg, he can play No6 for this make shift team ) - waraths
7 scott fuglistaller - rebels
8 fotu auelua - brumbies
9 alby mathewson - force
10 quade cooper - reds
11 chris sautia - reds
12 christain leilafano - brumbies
13 digby ioane - reds
14 richard kingi - rebels
15 mike harris- reds

u know what all these players have in common??? they were allo born in NZ.
while theyre kiwis, im not stupid enough to say the aussies poached them, cos they made that choice, kapesh???

Sasuke, maybe you should really do yourself a favour and get hold of the guy's book, and I am not trying to be funny about it. SARU have stuffed up so many times with coaches, it is not even funny. Normally (from what I understand), with contracted players their clubs/unions/etc sit down with them and/or their agents when the player's contract expires and the discuss issues, etc and then a decission is made on whether to offer an extension of a contract/renegotiated contract or whatever the case may be. Why should it be different with the national coach? Especially if he delivered what he promised four years earlier?

Fact is that they advertised the post without discussing it with him at all and at a time when he could not pay full attention to the matter either. TBH, they did the same with PDV and may he be whoever we want him to be, it was also not fair. I am sure that NZ would never in a million years have gotten rid of Graham Henry in such a way. The real issue, and that is one of those open secrets, is that the politicians wanted a coach of colour, end off, and SARU could not delay that any more, and they did not have the balls to do it in a proper and dignified manner. When Jake returned after the 2007 RWC final, both Oregen Hoskins and Stofile (the then minister of sports) said that Jake is going nowhere and nobody wants to get rid of him. The rumours were of course already flying around. Withing a few months after that Jake was on his way. At some stage the even moved hos stuff out of his office at SARU and moved it into a corridor, while he was with teh Boks on the away leg of the TN. That was in 2006 IIRC.

@bongani2,

what is the name of that book??? i will try and track it down, reading rugby books and raymond fiest novels are my favourite pasttimes. i dont think jake white is a good coach for the many reasons i stated in my original commnts on this thread (he still knows way more then me, lolz), but i dont have anything personal against him.

but after all was said and done, even if all those things u said were true about the forces that be conspiring to get rid of him for a coloured coach, the reality is jake white didnt reapply, so IMO hes just like oscar, hes got no leg to stand on.
had he reapplied for the job, then at least u could say, they really were out to get him.

the fact is though, the position was advertised and jake white didnt apply for it. those facts regardless of any attachments detailling the circumstances around it and all, can not be denied.

 @Sasuke- 

The books is http://www.amazon.co.uk/In-Black-White-Jake-Story/dp/1770220046

-

I have read the book and also followed the media at the time, and I am 100% certain that Jake White would never have been given the job had he applied for the job. He should have re-applied but I think he wrongly took the moral highground. Jake White was under massive pressure to select more non-white players and it was mostly the politicians with no real interest in rugby just looking to further their own agendas. 

I had heard as early as in 2006 that Pieter Devilliers was going to be the next Springbok coach.

@Sharkbok. The other reality is also that Jake selected more "new" players of colour than any Bok coach before him.

Rooinek, based it on the same reasoning you used to assume another 5 years before Boks are dominant again of course. National pride and good old guessing....call it the "Rooinek 5 Year Plan Precedent" Hows that for english old boy.

Semi seriously though the Boks have won 2 RWC since readmittance that is as good indicator that they should have been heading back to their "dominant" days.  But it hasn't transpired, despite the fact that up until the 2011 RWC, the AB's had 1 RWC but were and still are the dominant team. So you could say that the number or RWC means nothing if translated to what actually makes a dominant team. Don't get me wrong I like SA rugby but at the moment the AB's have surpassed them as the dominant side. If the Boks can't do it in 20 years why would another 5 matter, they would have to make stellar strides and the AB experience a major implosion for this to happen.

Here is the final word.

SA has not seen a coach like Jake White in a number of years since Kitch Christie in '95! Jake's brain ticks rugby and how many other coaches have we seen know little about what backs do or what forwards do and then go and appoint a coach who knows even less like Loubscher.

Jake had the presence of mind to call in Eddie Jones. What a call that proved to be. Never have I seen a Bok backline attack with such purpose and attitude. They actually looked like they had an idea and knew what they were doing.

It was Jake White who spotted JDV and Fourie as being a great centre combination. Other coaches might have wasted their talents on the wing or fullback respectively. Jake knew what needed to change and he built a formidable team and culture that was healthy for Bok rugby. Not easy amidst all the troubles going on behind the scene. He didn't even know who Zola Yeye was until he was the Boks manager and that sort of shit. He faced problems each and every week of his tenure. He would be told who to play and where when he had different ideas. Not easy men but still he built the core of our team that took us forward for a good number of years. No more was the Bok blazer simply handed out! It had to be earned.

Jake and Eddie in 2007 should have been given the next 12 years at the helm if they so wished to take it. I guarantee you then, the Boks by 2018 might have had 4 or 5 WC trophies behind them! He was not stupid. With Eddie by his side and the way their brains tick rugby, Boks could have been the ultimate force once again! No doubt. Whoever doubts Jake does not know what they are talking about!

BokLog: "Never have I seen a Bok backline attack with such purpose and attitude."

Pffffffffffffhahahahahaha!

BokLog, if the ponderous and stilted kick-and-chase rubbish dished up by Eddie Jone's 2007 Bok backline is the best Bok backline you've ever seen then I actually feel quite sorry for you. Just out of interest, had you not been born in 1998 or were you still too young to watch rugby?

Agreed Rooi, that take on Jake is a load of bullshit. The best thing that ever happend was seeing that back of him.

Hell his record in 2006 was 42% and Boklogic wanted him to continue for another 12 years - heaven help us.

Jake was an average coach, with an average record of 67% and sadly a man with a massive ego. Do not rate him as a coach at all

Dave, It's obvious we'll never agree on your comments about Jake, each to his own, we'll agree to disagree and leave it at that but answer me this one...let's take Jake and Eddie out of the equation for a wee while if you can and answer me this......

IF the Boks had to meet any other team in the final of 2007 RWC i.e. France, Australia or NZ....would they have won?

 Yes Denny, the Bok side was a good one and they were good enough to beat any side in that final

My thoughts exactly...for 2 reasons...

1) It was the best prepared Bok side to participate in a RWC

2) Vic, Bakkies, Smith and co had reached the peak of their game.

My final words on the subject....it is a pity that the Boks never got to play the AB's and even though you will never admit it,the credit for (1) belongs to Jake White.

 Rooinek or Jalapeno, whatever you call yourself these days. Im really not interested in your take on Jake white much like im not interested in your take on any matters relating to rugby. U will back Saffex up if he says pigs can fly.

98' I was 10/11 years old so I watched rugby very blindly. I am not putting Jake up against any other coach as he was unique. The inside balls and running lines of those backs at the '07 WC was great. Go watch the England pool game and Argies semi again.

Whatever you and Saffex say you can not back it up in this case. Saffex usually hates stats but all of a sudden he loves the 67% win rate of Jake. PDV has an awesome win rate against the AB's. Does that make him a better coach than Jake White?? Please guys!! Jake White unearthed all those players you guys love so much!

 Jake and Kirwan the better coaches at themoment.  Jake did wonders for the Brumbies with no real stars and John is just exceptional - almost as good as he was as a player.

@kalaedfreddie,

jake did wonders for the brumbies with no real stars??? O_o

2013
beat the reds missing their best players and the rebels,

2012
the brumbies played a total of 16 games where they won 10 of those games. here is a list of the following teams the brumbies beat,,,
15th lions
14th force x 2
13th rebels x 2
11th waraths x 2
10th cheetahs
9th highlanders
8th hurricanes

i thnk ur jake did wonders comments is a wonder.

kirwans doing pretty good, but if u want to see the best coach in the comp then check out dave rennie, he took a team with no real stars too and turned them into superstars and the current champions.
kerr barlow, retallick, sam cane, b taumafuina, b afeaki, craig clarke, r robinson, asli tikorotuma, andy horrel, all are amongst the best players in the comp all last year and this year.

The 2007 Boks indeed did deserve to win RWC 2007 and were a good side.

Irrespective of what you think about Jake White he did do two great things for SA Rugby.

1. He appointed a born leader to lead the team, namely John Smit.

2. He managed to win Rugby WC 2007.

What have you guys achieved other than bad mouthing a gentlemen?

Sasuke, I beg to differ with your comment re. Dave Rennie. He must be a good coash and there is no doubting that but to say he took individuals that were "no real stars" is far from true.

Nanai-Williams, Kahui, SBW, Masaga, Kerr-barlow, Brendon Leonard, Cruden, Robbie Robinson for the backs

Messam, Cane Thompson, Sam Cane, Craig Clarke, Mahonri Schwalgar, Hika Elliot, Aled De Malmanche, Brodie Retallick, Tanerau Latimer in the forwards.

These are all star players and would play for any other union in the competition guaranteed. Chiefs have more star players at their disposal than most unions and thats a fact. Most those guys are experienced and it was/is their time to come good as they have been under achievers for many years.

Out of the backs listed there, that is undoubtedly the best backline in the competition. Second to none and that proved the case when they went on to win the competition. Dave Rennie obviously put some good structures in place but its always easier with a star studded team as you will agree. From that season, we saw some awesome new talent come through in Tikorotuma, Horrell and co who were not well known prior to the year beginning.

@suske - Chiefs full of ABs or fringe AB players - not to mention an Asutralian born halfback...

As an ardent reds supporter I can assure you the brumbies are the real deal this year and are easily THE aussie team to beat. Not sure if Chiefs are playing them and where but if you look @ the stats from last year you'll also note that of the games they lost none were by that much -

I think you'll find no other aussie team has a tougher forward pack (not to mention the inclusion of George Smith @ 32yo he still be a force at the breakdown) and for me Mowen is the no8 the wallabies have been urgently searching for ....now if only dingo realises this and gets him in the Gold. 

I am not convinced of Brumbies backs just yet but young Jesse Mogg has 100m time of 10.6 so obviously pace to burn... not to mention kick and step - probably a little on the lightweight side so we'll see if he makes it through the season.

Also if they can keep toomua & liliafano on the field for a season they will give the comp a big shake this year...

@redsman,

so even though the teams thebrumbies did lose to in 2012 were not by much, that means what exactly??? o_O

again, here are the list of teams that the brumbies beat in 2012 and keep in mind they never once played the stormers or crusaders both of who were semifinalists,,,

15th lions
14th force x 2
13th rebels x 2
11th waraths x 2
10th cheetahs
9th highlanders
8th hurricanes

but hey if thats ur definition of a great year, then good for u, i just hope NZ never lowers their the bar to the miedocre level that u clearly have.
any NZ team who had those fixtures would have made the finals easy.

BTW, the blues NZs 2012 wooden spooners didnt just beat the brumbies, they smashed them 30-16.

each to their own about how well the brumbies are actually performing, but IMO beating the reds and rebels means sweet fudge all.

i do like ben mowen though, was a bit of a penlaty magnet in 2012, but all in all im waiting for the brumbies to fail against the REAL top teams in 2013.
theyre just lucky that the retard friendly aussie conference allows them to play every austrlian club twice, which is the equivilent of playing the special olympics and saying ur the same as usain bolt, LMAO, :oP

and is that ur best response to the NZ poaching islander players???? thats pretty weak redman, just like austrlain rugby.

BTW i love how george smith only retunrs to super rugby after McCaw takes a sabtical from it, LMAO, along the smae lines as the NRL banning the shoulder tackle when SBW announced his return to league, LMFAO, :oD
ur aussies may not be the bravest SOBs, but theyre definately not the dumbest. :oD
considering how australia are the leading authorities on banned drugs in all their sports, why dont they just take something to help them grow some balls??? :oP

wow, more zingers then ur lame player poaching argument, but i guess i only needed one for that, but i couldnt stop once i was on a roll,
BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, :oD

jake white won a RWC. only a hand few can claim that. the fusion between jake white and eddie jones was the real recipe of success. the only thing that jake did was build a team of exp and builded the team around that aspect.

jake did a lot for the boks but his mentality towards a proper open sider it seems has changed over the years so i for one are alot more open minded to his style of coaching. meyer on the other hand plays his game a lot like jake did apart from the fact that that type of playing pattern does nor yield winning results as the mindset is still stuck in the 1970's.

i personally would like to see jake take over as the next bok coach from 2014 as meyer wont last the year in my view. jake made his mistakes in charge at the boks i think he learned over the years. one cannot underestimate the effect eddie jones had on the boks RWC chances as the bok backline was nothing short of majestic under him.

 Well said Muncher. I think we have a few coaches who are now really experienced. Guys like Jake, Mallet, Venter Rassie etc. Brains is what is needed - our biggest failure is upstairs.

George smith back probably more to do with lions than mccheat going on leave. Mccheat is old and slow now he's going on leave so pocock doesn't show him up now that favourite cheating kiwi ref Bryce is gone...

As for crusaders how pathetic we're they last weekend... Hhahaah bunch of overrated ref dependent losers hahaha. And since Bryce has been sacked they got no trophies hahahaahahah....

kiwi team to watch is blues they aRe looking real solid but haven't travelled yet as for chiefs they'll be in the mix but don't have the same mojo as last year. 

Well see re brumbies but I guarantee they will dominate any fwd pack in the comp if they can keep key players on the field.

 Jake won a World Cup. His bad year (2006) can largely be contributed to the circus he had to deal with politically.

Now he is overseeing a great turnaround in the Brumbies fortunes in the premiere regional competition in the world.

If that doesn't prove he has what it takes as a coach, then not sure what does.

 Get this into your thick skulls. Jake White was a poor coach wilth a poor record who brought back washed up has beens like Os Du Rant and Percy Montgomery. 

I agree with you carpetmuncher + oimatey ! So good to see there are some sharp minds on this site. Jake gave us a worldcup even with a 66% win ratio! I'd say thats a good pass! He took a young group and made them champions.His team went on to win a series against the British Lions under Dummy de Villiers.

Jake is doing great work with a young Brumbies side. He has really assembled an amazingly talented coaching staff at Canaberra , i wouldnt be surprised seeing the brumbies in the top 8 if not 4.

I dont agree that Mallett was so bad! He holds the joint record for the most consecutive wins with NZ and with a win ratio of 71% thats pretty good in my books.