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How strong is the PRO14 Club rugby?

Started by clevermike28 REPLIES1,580 VIEWS· 06 Nov 2017, 06:17
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CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Nov 2017, 06:17
#1
06 Nov 2017, 06:17#1
The results of the clubs in their games against the Cheetahs and the Kings taken as a norm must be seen in context.   The two teams mentioned are not strong enough to represent the strongest franchises in SA.   The NH teams are not strong enough to really compete against the Sharks, Lions, Bulls and Stormers and would struggle to win any   matches  against them.
It must also be borne in mind that some of the same clubs are playing in the Champions Cup competition and often enough ends up in the semi's or finals.   Even though the top tams like Saracens (partly owned by Rupert)  are above the rest - the question mark is about the majority of teams even in the Champions Cup.             
sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,237 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,237 posts
06 Nov 2017, 12:58
#2
06 Nov 2017, 12:58#2
I suspect if the foreigners were removed from this league, it would be a shambles.Far too many teams- the only reason it can be sustained is foreign imports.
It would be nice to see some New Zealand players representing the Kings and Cheetas.If the money gets pumped into the competition- maybe this will happen.
Pro14 it seems is not the first choice tournament in the Northern hemisphere- with no English or French teams.

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Nov 2017, 13:03
#3
06 Nov 2017, 13:03#3
Well there are a lot of teams and a lot of foreigners. But that’s all washed away in the National teams, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. So over the next few weeks we’ll get a measure of how we stack up.
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Nov 2017, 15:58
#4
06 Nov 2017, 15:58#4
Mozart
I don't like the rub bish selections of Coetzee and it is bound to weaken the team.   WE will see on Thursday what he has dreamt up this time - and that will indicate what is bound to be the case on Friday.
Remember the international teams have coaches - we hacve had a series of dud coaches since 2008.

CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
06 Nov 2017, 16:05
#5
06 Nov 2017, 16:05#5
 @Sharkbok, you have to understand the rationale behind the Pro14 in the context of European rugby. 
England and France are the two "biggest"rugby countries in European rugby. England have 12 teams in their tier one competition and 12 their tier two competition. 
France have 14 in their tier one and 16 in their tier two competition.
Ireland has a different system altogether. They have a number of mostly semi-professional clubs and their only fully professional rugby establishments are the four provinces, ie Leinster, Ulster, Munster,and Connacht.
Wales have a similar system to Ireland with a number of semi-professional clubs and then the four big professional sides, Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and Llanelli.
Scotland traditionally only had two fully professional sides in the old Celtic, which was played between Ireland, Wales and Scotland. 
The Celtic league was replaced by the Pro!2 and then from this year the Pro14. This happened due to two reasons. The first was that the professional Iris, Welsh and Scotland sides could not have a proper domestic competition, each. Scotland would have two games and that would have been the season finished. Ireland and Wales would probably have had six home and away rounds and then a final each and that would have the end of the season for each of them. That was why the had the Celtic league, ie to have a proper competition.
Then, with the start of the European competitions, they had a serious issue on how to accommodate Ireland, Wales and Scotland as well as Italy later on. England and France was easy but it would have meant that, if they applied the same rule all over, the English and French clubs would have to fight for a place in the top tier European competition while the Ireland, Welsh and Scottish sides were virtually guaranteed a spot in the top tier competition.
That is why the Pro12 was introduced. That meant that the Celtic teams as well as the Italian teams had to fight for the top spots in the Pro12 to qualify for the top tier Euro competition. Unfortunately they made a bit of a hash of things with all four the Irish teams being guaranteed a backdoor into first the Heineken Cup and sunsequently the European Champions Cup.
That is more or less the way I remember it. I could have a few slip ups in the story but that is basically it.
As far as allowing too many NZ and Oz players or even teams in, I'm not too sure if that would happen. I don't think that they would be too happy to see more than SA from the SH involved, purely because of the logistics of the thing. In addition, there have been elements within the European rugby setup who have been jockeying for quite while to have SA involved in their competitions. My gut feeling is that they would like to see this idea, of SA being involved in NH rugby, as a way to push for one global rugby season.
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Nov 2017, 00:06
#6
07 Nov 2017, 00:06#6
 Ceradyne
Your long story is meaningless because it does not deal with the issue of the quality/strength of the club teams, which were being discussed.   Do you have to show your ignorance constantly?  

sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,237 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,237 posts
07 Nov 2017, 00:23
#7
07 Nov 2017, 00:23#7
@Ceradyne- I remember reading some stuff like you mention in the news sometime ago. 
The English and French teams get beat in the Euro cup competition because they are over played in their own national leagues. This gave the Celtic teams an advantage.
Next season the SA teams will be much stronger, and we should hoping for one team to win it.
The problem with the Cheetas is they have been perennial failures on defense.
BE
Beeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
07 Nov 2017, 07:00
#8
07 Nov 2017, 07:00#8
 The days of the sharks and bulle raiding Cheetahs talent could be over. The Cheetahs could be making lots of boodle. Perhaps they will in future years be poach ing sharks and bulle players. Hahahahahahahahaha
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
07 Nov 2017, 08:31
#9
07 Nov 2017, 08:31#9
@Sharkbok. The problem at this stage, IMO, is that the French and English clubs do not value the European competitions as high as they should. An example was a discussion that I had with someone a while ago. Being in Reading, I obviously support London Irish who have been promoted back into the Premiership this season. The guy that I was talking is a staunch Exiles supporter with season tickets the lot. Obviously being back into the Premiership means that they automatically slotted into the European Challenge Cup competition and we were talking about the form of London Irish and how they needed a win to pick themselves up after a run of losses. This was a few days before their Challenge Cup game against Stade Francais. He argued that they will probably getting another hiding because they have tested almost their entire first choice team and have included almost all of their players who have not had a run yet. His argument was that the European competition is a cup competition and not a league competition like the Premiership and therefore less important. I then said to him not to be surprised because if the beat Stade Francais because Stade is in exactly the same boat in the Top 14, and that they would probably also field a team of dirt trackers. That, in the end, was exactly what happened and Irish beat Stade Francais by 44-7 in their own backyard only to go down to Saracens by 44-13 in the Premier again the next week. Be that as it may. I agree that the SA teams would be putting up a much better show in the Pro14 next year when they have a settled team and have not just come out of a Super Rugby series. We also have to bear in mind that, although the Cheetahs and the Kings has the odd big loss in Super Rugby, the most of their losses weren’t by massively big margins. What I’m trying to say is that although they were at the bottom end of the log, they were not really that crap.
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Nov 2017, 12:09
#10
07 Nov 2017, 12:09#10
Ceradun ce
So the Top 14 (France)  and Anglo-Welsh Cup is more important than the European Champions Cup  as mentioned in discussion with a rugby noob attached to London Irish.   I have heard funny stories and BS before, but this one is a farce in capital letters.       
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
07 Nov 2017, 12:22
#11
07 Nov 2017, 12:22#11
That is the way that the English and French clubs view it, yes. The Premiership and the Top14 are league competitions while the European competitions are Cup competitions. When it gets to upcoming crunch games in the Top14 and Premiership the English and French sides would often field weakened teams in the European competitions and then try to limit damages in the next rounds. That is exactly why the Irish sides often get into sharp end of the European competitions. The Anglo-Welsh Cup is even less important. It is a cross border competition between the English Premiership clubs and the Welsh regional clubs. Years ago, in the seventies, when the competition started they did not even have a trophy or seeked sponsors for the competition.
sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,237 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,237 posts
17 Feb 2020, 04:06
#12
17 Feb 2020, 04:06#12
The Kings have been the worst team in the tournament for some time. The Cheetas started the season well, but have also become a shambles. 
These players are not used to playing on these type of pitches, or maybe they will never play well on them. January, February and some of March is hellish with weeks of constant rain. 
Is it true that the Northern Hemisphere is going to move their rugby season out of mid-winter? I heard something that they want to play in better weather and pitches. 
The Northern Hemisphere tournaments would be better to watch if they played on dry hard pitches, that will benefit using the backline more often. 
ST
Stavanger1
Pro4,532 posts
ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
17 Feb 2020, 13:29
#13
17 Feb 2020, 13:29#13
Was hoping the Kings would show signs of improvement this year but looks more of the same. Mostly very poor with the odd one or two good games through the course of the season. I feel one or two of the wins they have picked up are down to opponents not taking them seriously. Alas the worst team in the league and that says a lot when you have Zebre and the Dragons in the same league though in fairness the Dragons have improved somewhat this season.
I wouldn't call the Cheetahs a shambles, they basically a middle tier team in the league. In fairness very few teams can beat Leinster at home, they are exceptional strong at the moment. Cheetahs are strong at home but pretty awful on the road. They will have a large block of home games at the end of the season so they have a good chance of making the play offs but have no chance of catching Ulster in second and as a result it will be away quarter final which they are unlikely to progress beyond.
I'm not aware of any plans to change the Northern Hemisphere leagues to a summer time frame.There is rumors afoot that the English Premiership and Pro 14 will be merged in a season or two's time though to form a British-Irish league.


ST
Stavanger1
Pro4,532 posts
ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
17 Feb 2020, 14:04
#14
17 Feb 2020, 14:04#14
@clevermike
In answer to the original question from 2 and a bit years ago about how strong the Pro 14 is, I would argue the overall strength of the teams is now slightly better than the English premiership and with Scaracens relegated  next year, I think the gap will grow.  






SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
17 Feb 2020, 17:05
#15
17 Feb 2020, 17:05#15
Mike saying the NH sides would not compete against the likes of the Sharks is ignorant horseshit of the highest level. Fact is the Cheetahs side on paper is a pretty handy one and the fact that Leinster absolutely thrashed them speaks volumes Fact is one of our Super rugby sides struggled to beat the Kings in a warm up game this pre season Stop making shit up it makes you look profoundly stupid NH club rugby is on par with the best Super rugby has to offer
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
17 Feb 2020, 17:20
#16
17 Feb 2020, 17:20#16

Most South African pros, Faf being a case in point, have improved markedly playing up north. I exclude players who basically retire up north.

That suggests the standards up north are just fine.....something which is readily apparent to any rugby fan who watches the better teams play.

SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
17 Feb 2020, 17:49
#17
17 Feb 2020, 17:49#17
It’s the kind of arrogant shit I would have come up with years ago when I used to maintain SH rugby was far superior to NH It’s simply not the case, the standards are pretty similar Saracens, Wasps, Saints, Bath, Leicester, Sale, Quins, Gloucester etc are all as good as the Stormers, Sharks, Bulls, Lions and Cheetahs in fact I’d probably give the NH sides the edge over the SA sides thanks to the mass exodus of many of our top players who are in their mid 20’s
sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,237 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,237 posts
17 Feb 2020, 17:59
#18
17 Feb 2020, 17:59#18
According to CleverMike, some of the university sides in SA will beat all of the teams in the Premiership. 
Sale Sharks has something like 9 players from SA that would be first-team starters in SuperRugby teams in SA . 
ST
Stavanger1
Pro4,532 posts
ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
17 Feb 2020, 18:22
#19
17 Feb 2020, 18:22#19

I can't really comment on Super Rugby teams as I don't watch them. My understanding is that Cheetahs and the Kings where SA weakest Super Rugby teams so they don't give an accurate reflection of the overall quality level of Super Rugby. Most pundits and fans in the North reckon the best of the Northern Hemisphere clubs would be around the same level as the best of the Southern Hemisphere, many would love to see the winner of the Champions Cup play the winner of Super Rugby.  


MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
17 Feb 2020, 18:49
#20
17 Feb 2020, 18:49#20

Soccer is way ahead here....a global club championship would be a cool event. And easy to do because the two candidates are already in place from Super Rugby and the Heineken Cup. It could be played in a Neutral venue like Vegas or Dubai.

SE
Seb
Pro2,680 posts
SE
SebPro2,680 posts
17 Feb 2020, 18:53
#21
17 Feb 2020, 18:53#21

Yes indeed we'd like that too..ie winners of each settling the argument , Leinster versus Crusaders would be a humdinger.

ST
Stavanger1
Pro4,532 posts
ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
17 Feb 2020, 18:59
#22
17 Feb 2020, 18:59#22
I think the main complaint against that idea is that the rugby season is already crammed enough as it is. Was the main reason the Northern Hemisphere objected to the world rugby league that was proposed last year.
sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,237 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,237 posts
17 Feb 2020, 19:01
#23
17 Feb 2020, 19:01#23
Leicester might be similar to Ireland. Good on slow wet pitches, but lack of pace and skill from the outside backs.
So if Crusaders played them I imagine it would more of a contest on a slower pitch. 

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
17 Feb 2020, 19:03
#24
17 Feb 2020, 19:03#24

Well it’s just one game.....there are a bunch of exhibition games played in early November.

SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
17 Feb 2020, 19:15
#25
17 Feb 2020, 19:15#25
Bullshit Shark again you are judging sides according to wet pitches played on in the past. Most the grounds now have artificial pitches or a combo of artificial and true. The result is a more expansive game. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Leicester out wide Your thinking is archaic - it would imply the likes of England can’t employ an expansive game when in fact theirs is up there with the best expansively. You need to be playing expansive rugby at club level in order to do the same at test level. Sure when it’s bucketing with rain you can’t run it but let’s face it most games are played in dry conditions which happen to be far milder these days up here
ST
Stavanger1
Pro4,532 posts
ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
17 Feb 2020, 19:41
#26
17 Feb 2020, 19:41#26
Of course up north their will be more wet weather matches than in the southern hemisphere but the majority of the games are still played in dry condition.  If you think wet weather makes Leinster look better than they are you obviously haven't watched them play much. I'd be pretty confident regardless of the type of pitch or weather conditions they would give the best Super Rugby team a run for their money. 
Leinster and Saracens are clearly the best two teams in Europe at the moment, but at the end of this season Saracens will effectively be disbanded and will likely take years to get back to the level they are currently at if at all.
The Champions Cup quarter final between the two will be immense. Leinster are yet to lose this season in any competition and will be playing to a full house in the Aviva. Scaracens have nothing else to play for this year and the Champions cup will be there last chance of significant silverware for  at least 2 years.


sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,237 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,237 posts
17 Feb 2020, 23:23
#27
17 Feb 2020, 23:23#27
The Test of Scotland versus England was atrocious conditions. There is little point in playing in this type of weather, regardless of the surface. 
Winter here is windy and rainy. Unless there is a stadium roof, it is far from ideal conditions . 

Wales can play an expansive game plan, whereas England is playing reasonably expansive. 
Ireland looked poor in the World Cup, and it was the lacklustre outside backs that were the worst. 
ST
Stavanger1
Pro4,532 posts
ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
18 Feb 2020, 00:41
#28
18 Feb 2020, 00:41#28

The hall mark of Joe Scmidth's Ireland was basically a low risk, percentage based game plan.

Ireland where immaculately drilled under Joe to do the basics very well. Excellent set piece, excellent at the break down, precision box kicking, low error, low penalty count, high possession choke the life out of opponents. They where never a creative team offensively, reliant on winning penalties to win field attack position and through sheer persistence eventually getting over the line

When the ball was kicked back to Ireland they didn't try to break the defense line when they ran it back, they ran back to where the support was so they wouldn't get turned over easily. Everything was about efficiency and low mistake count.

It wasn't pretty but it was effective and Ireland got to the top of the rankings playing that way in 2018.

2019 was a different a story. Ireland got figured out and the manner of England's win where the completely bullied Ireland up front in the 6 nations really broke Irelands confidence, and Ireland never came close to their 2018 form, combined with a dip in form of a number of players it was pretty horrible to watch.

So far under Andy Farrell its about 80% the same gameplay but I've already seen more attacking play from Ireland in the first two games than you would see in a whole 6 Nations under Schimdt. Positives on the whole. England game next weekend should be good, I'd still slightly favor England at home but Ireland have a decent chance I reckon.

Leinster are much more attack orientated than Ireland in general. Leinster are as close as you get to the full package in club rugby.



SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
18 Feb 2020, 00:44
#29
18 Feb 2020, 00:44#29
Ireland might have been poor in the WC but were on fire a year ago beating the AB’s. School boy and junior club rugby here is no different to back home, the kids are encouraged and directed to play an exciting brand of running rugby.
— END OF THREAD —

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