I believe the Boks could win on Saturday

Not conventional I know, but when the Boks play the ABs the form book goes out the window. And consider a few facts:

1) We have a much superior kicking game....with the ability to convert points from way out.

2) NZ have their own disruptions. SBW was a huge part of theit offensive effort.....and Carter's absence will make a difference.

3) NZ were not that impressive against the Bargies a team that plays somewhat like the Boks.

4) Our S15 teams were very competitive in NZ this year....up to and including the Sharks in the S15 final. There is nothing to fear, nothing we haven't seen before.

5) The Boks will be able to play without the fear of losing, everybody thinks that's a given.

6) There are a lot of senior Boks who have taken a personal whipping in the press this week and will be keen to make amends. In the modern flow of a match a week, getting the lads motivated is a big factor.

7) The coach has also been under the cosh.....he wont be ok with a rote effort.

8) The very presence of Bakkies in the camp will add mongrel to the team.

Don't get me wrong the Boks are still onderhonde.....I'd put the ABs at 80%. But its a real 20% chance of winning I'd focus on if I was Meyer. And I wouldnt do any kicking except for touch finding, in the first 20 minutes. Leave that tactic for when the defences have reacted to our phase play.

Go Bokkke!

 Moz i am extremely Glad that you sre so positive. My heart says that we are going to win by a hunnnerd points. but my head says not likely.

I see your points and even if they did play a major factor, the only way we will win on Saturday is if the execution is fixed. Gameplan and approach wont change even if we want it to, and atm we are an open book. But we can hope, and hope is all we have..

Moz, my automatic thought when I started reading was that you were smoking your socks, but after reading the points you have made, well, they are all valid.

I still wouldn't bet on the Boks to win, but it is certainly possible.

EK it's 15 men against 15 men. Hell if Andy Murray can win a grand slam event, the Boks could beat NZ. It's the coach's job to make them believe that.

 Well now you have made a very Strong argument .........

The fact of the matter is that New Zealand are average. It's not a case of whether we can outplay them, it's a case of whether we can get a fair enough game where we can be competitive. In 2010, this supposedly invincible New Zealand couldn't outplay a very poorly coached Bok side. Of their 8 tries in those two away tests, only three were legal. By the time Nienaber got hold of things we completely shut down New Zealand's attack in 2011, an attacking performance that was the best they'd given us since 2003's 50 pointer! Some food for thought. The illegitimate world champions should not be feared. That doesn't mean we will win, but they are nothing worthy of respect of fear. Just an average side with the IRB in their corner.

 Oh Cat be carefull there boet, now you sound like Beeno...

Simply stating a fact. One of their gems was to have Conrad Smith run past the ruck and pull Morne and Kirchner out of position, it left a hole for Nonu to squeeze through. The other? McCaw on the wrong side of the ruck pulls our player aside and steals the ball and pops it to a Kiwi well offside, they proceeded to score a try in the next phase of play. This continued all they way through 2010 to present day. As said, a very simple and obvious fact. This kiwi side is pathetic.

 Hehehe. nice one there.....

heres my argument to the points made,,,

1) theres not much difference in the goalkicking, from the normal distance, cruden has had a better percentage during the spXV then morne and mornes been off in 2012, far below his usual high expectations from other years.

but u do have a big advantage with francois steyns sniper boot.

2) its not our attack which has been the most dangerous part of the All Blacks game, its been our defence, on two different occassions weve managed to keep our opponents scoreless.
SBW is a huge loss considering hes the worlds best 12, but weve more then got our bases covered especially as we have the worlds best 13 playing as well with the most experienced midfiled combo ever in All Blacks history.

carters a loss, but we wont lose any sleep, as we have druden the spXV form flyhalf starting and beauden barret on the bench, cruden was the spXv top point scorer and beauden barret was 3rd.
carters a big loss, as hes the best all round flyhalf EVER, but cruden is a better attacker with the ball in hand, and the conditions this sat means thats exactly whats going to happen, but we can onkly wait and see.

3)NZ were not impressive, but the weather was atrocious and the pumas really turned up to play. more importanatly though, is the Boks dont play like the pumas, the Boks are the worst team at the breakdowns, its why u couldnt get a whitewahs against england and also why the pumas got their best ever result against u in mendoza.
Boks need to lift their game by 50% in this area just to match the pumas, who were subsequently destroyed in the second half, once th All Blacks put their foot down.

4) saffa teams only play 2 games in NZ during the spXV
stormers beat the highlanders and lost to the crusaders
bulls lost to the chiefs and lost to the highlanders
cheetahs beat the hurricanes and lost to the crusaders
sharks beat the blues and lost to the hurricanes
lions lost to the blues and the chiefs

from a possible 10 games saffa teams won 3, so no ur teams didnt do very welll in NZ

5) All Black players often speak about losing to anybody and letting the team down is an expectation that is worse then anything any opponent can bring. its why the All blacks have been the most successful team ever.
were afraid to lose period.

6) a lot of senior Boks have been taking a whipping for a while, but like meyers gameplans, ive seen nothing change or any indication that it will

7) see comment at 6.

8) bakkies is a good inclusion, that might be enough to lower the guard of the All Blacks, but im expecting the smiles supporting bakkies inclusion will be turned upsidedown after the freedom cup test.

its silly to rule out the Boks and i do think that the Boks will rise to the occassion as both teams always do when facing one another.
drop goals, the forwards fronting up to play for the entire 80 minutes, and with a little luck the All Blacks being off their game for more then 40 minutes is the bare minimum requirment for a Boks upset, and thats not outside the realm of possibilty, but the smart rand is on the All blacks easy.

All Blacks by 15 points.

i love how the All Blacks make requisecat so miserable. poor poor Boks, if only the world didnt pick on them so much.

the AB has some weak points but to be fair its so few and far between that one really needs to be on song in all areas to take it from them. AB's game is picture perfect they cover all the basics and really play from a strong base and there attention to detail in the ruck and so many areas is there strongest advantage.

can they be beaten....yes they can. the game is played on grass and when its 15 against 15 as moz said its still a game that needs to be won. they have some defensive problem areas that i think the boks can exploit but we need to be very accurate and very commited to it. up the tempo on attack and just keep at them. the wall will crack after a while. aimless kicking slow attacking ball and poor attention come rucktime will make the game a long day at the office for the boks. slowing down there rucks and making sure we put pressure on there inside channels will go a long way to stop there attacking pattern.

we need to attack them all day long. no aimless kicking just wave after wave of running and bashing over the advantage line. slow balls get taken up the quick 2 and 3 phase balls gets runned out to the backline. robbing them of the ball should be the main focus i feel. louw should be a starter until brussouw can get back into the team to give us a even bigger edge on the dirt

Mozart.....this is 2012 not 1949 I'm afraid.

The Boks are going to get clobbered....FINISH and KLAAR.

I would prefer this game to get the combinations right for the homes games. I do not see us winning this game at all. 

I think we will beat them in the home games vs NZ and Aus if we get the selections right. We have got rid of many of the underperforming Bulls. This looks like Mornes last starting game as he is moved aside. hopefully Kirchner will follow the same fate.

Test Rugby needs a good fetcher, and if Brussouw is fit and in form- he must play.

We cant have anymore clumsyness at the rucks. We need quick ball to get our strong ball carriers running flat onto the advantage line at pace to dominate the collisions.

No good having lots of strong ball carriers that only get the ball behind the advantage line. Alberts is the strongest carrier in world rugby, some of his test for the boks have been excellants and for the Sharks as well in Superxv.

The 2nd test against England, in the 1st half is how we need to play consistently. To do this we need a good fetcher to give us fast clean possesion. Ideally we can also slow down the opposition possesion without giving penalties.

Are we going to get rid of the under-performing Sharks as well or is it just the Bulls players who under-perform? Or maybe there were no under-performing Sharks? Beast, Du plessis, Mvovo were all outstanding?

what exactly did Zane Kirchner do wrong on Saturday? His tactical kicking was as good as its ever been.

BTW I am not a Bulls fan!

 @Mambo- yes the likes of Mvovo need to shape up or ship out. However realistically the Sharks players were chosen on Merit to begin with, and not Meyers Bulls affirmative action. 

When Coenie is fit he is going to walk back into the team- and someone is going to make way for him. 

Zane Kirchner done nothing wrong in the last test- but then again he does not ever do that much right. Most people agree that Lambie should be starting. As for Morne- this topic has been equasted- he will make way for the best 10 Goose- in the home games, and allways thereafter. 

Mvovo was crap in the last test- and JP should be fit again soon, so hopefully we get our best players back on the field. I also rate the injured Bulls wing much higher than Mvovo. 

@Moz

Bud, where has their coach been under the cosh?

Did I miss something?

One thing is for sure the Boks have always lifted a level or three when we play against the AB's. They of all nations seem to bring out the best in our boys!

Moz - Sasu does counter your points but that doesn't mean that we go to NZ and expect to lose, after all we are the "Mighty Boks"  lets hope the attitude is in the right space? Realistically we have to improve in many areas, especially at contesting for the ball at the rucks and blowing them off the ball.

But more so maintaining intensity for 80 minutes which to me is a basic test fundamental. Lets start tackling to which I think is another fundamental, and why not try kick away from a player rather than Kirchners and Mornes stupid at the player???? Why not put in a fetcher afterall every other team in the world has one? Just another fundamental . Lets try get our backlie to run straight rather than across pretty simple fundamental to me? What about instilling some discipline into our game after all penalties give points away to other teams and I am sure we are giving plenty away at the wrong end of the field - is that another fundamental that we are failing on? 

The game of rugby is pretty simple really all you have to do is score more points than the other team. Our challenge this week is to score more than an average AB team (average so says reqcat) and we will win. The challenge is to where do we target them? What attacking capabilities do we have at this time with the squad we have can we attack gthe AB's.

They will compete at the rucks and mauls. Their scrum is arguably the best in the world after what they done to Argentina. The have a very quick backline and their loosies are inexplicably faster than ours. Nonu and Smith may give us a chance to play on their lack of game time together but with Morne and JDV we dont have the firepower to do so. What channels do you guys think the Boks need to aim at pull this one out? Their defence is the best in the world. 

Forget this pathetic crap that reqcat is bleating on that the AB's are an average team...WTF!!!...If they are average then all you are saying about SA rugby is that we are below average...yes?

One clear message has come through of late and that is the question around the player depth and quality of SA rugby. Or should I say the lack of depth? On a positive we are blooding new guys and this must be good for our team. On a negative when you start losing or drawing against lesser teams then you start doubting your ability and we know how that disease works ala "destroylie"

 

Mozart

Frankly - I cannot see hoiw this can happen.   First of all - we will not have a strong team on display.   The Springboks are in fact in deeper trouble than I can remember for a long time.   They may be forced to play Beast and Malherbe as props - even if Cilliers is avaialble or for that matter Jannie Du Plessis - they will still be in a very poor situation.   Both of them absent and malherbe will have to play a full game and Beast ultimately replaced by off all players Greyling.

Locks - since Balkkies is not available - they will have to play Kruger and Alberts on the lock - with Van der Merwe on the bench.   Bad news those as well.   I can live with the loose forward combination of Louw at 5, Coetzee at 7 and Vermeulen at 8 - but those players are not really the best we have.

The Springbok back line play is a shambles.   Pienaar is OK - but neither of the Steyns and De Villiers have been up to standard this year.   Matter of fact they were poor.

To beat the All Blacks mean the team must fire on all cylinders - but can anyone realistically say that would happen.

Look at the following as the potential team:-

15  -   Kirchner - Lambie would be a better proposisiton, but will most likely be on the bench.  The All Blacks knows that Kirchner is very weak under high balls when pessurised and they will pepper him with those.  

14  -    Habana - but ill he last the whole game and disaster will struck when Mvovo is brought on.

13  -   De Villiers - sub-standard in the games against the Argentinians in mendoza and particularly poor in Perth.

12  -   Steyn - not at all acceptable thus far in the tests he played in.

11 -    Hougaard - Like him as a wing - but did not really play well in Perth.

10  -   Morne Steyn - the most predictable flyhalf of the past 50 years and easily dealth with by the opposition thus far this year.    Cannot inititate any backline moves of note.

 9    -  Experienced player - but cannot do much on his own

  8   -   Vermeulen - a hard grinder - but not expereienced on test level

 7   -   Coetzee - Very inexperienced - excellent defender - but likely to be neutralized when he tries to carry the ball    The other option is Potgieter - but he is clueless and would be a disaster.  bad news that one.

 6   -   Louw - was not playing on international level this year and likely to perform moderately.

 5   -  Kruger - not really the best around - was never in sight against the Wallabies other than when he gabe a penalty in front of the posts.  

 4. -   Alberts - had a good game against the POMS - but otherwise below par.

 3  -   A shambles here - dont think Jannie Du Plessis will be fit to play and the replacement likely to be Malherbe.   The first did not perform well this year and Malherbe has no international expereience.

 2  -  Strauss - good on Super 15 level - but way below par on international level.   Liebenberg is worse.

 1`.   Beast - way below par this year.

The above would be lucky to lose by less than 20 points against the All Blacks.   if the All Blacks cannot beat that combination by a very large margin - then they could indeed be called way below the standard normally set by New Zealand.   .  

bring it on Mozzie!

i thought the same as u wigboy. I thought we had a chance...... until Meyer named his team!!

Moz of course if the guys fir ewe can win. However there are a lot of negatives.

Beast needs to be replaced by Coenie, Bissie i missing and jannie also needs replacing by WP Nel .

Bekker is on the bench -is he fit? Juandre is n oinerantional lock.

Louw is not fit and neither is Vermulen. Alberts blows hot and cold. Collectively the trio lacks pace and I am surprised coetzee was dropped.

The backline is a problem for a whole host of reasons not least of all a pap tight five.

Ex Keo:

South Africa’s rivalry with New Zealand is considered the fiercest in the game, but the All Blacks have been dominant in the professional era. Pre-isolation the Boks held a 21-16 winning advantage, but since international readmission in 1992 the All Blacks have won 30 and the Boks just 13. One Test has been drawn, 18-18 in Auckland in 1994.

For us to return to our traditioanl dominance (over many decades) of Nz we need to become professional. Currently we have jokers running rugby in SA with pockets of talent . Only excellent player talent keeps us in the picture. The talent is often pretty raw.

What has happened to Rassie's Bok involvement? 

@ben10,

current preisolation record is 20-15 to the Boks, not 21-16 with 2 draws and thats from 37 games, wont say anything about the lack of neutral refs for 90% of those games though.
and while the Boks got the better of the All Blacks, in that era, the All Blacks had a higher winning percentage then the Boks when it cam to ALL tests played.

but anyway, the cheetah props would be in my frontrow as well, but meyer is continuing the tradition of form means jack when it comes to Bok selections, u really need a kiwi coach IMO, cos the saffa plan aint working.

Pre isolation we were better than you and better than  very other nation on earth. Hence the only conclusion is we were were the best. Simple logic saSUE - not your strong point but I hope you are getting a glimmer.

The get the jarpies campaign has succeeded and until our rugby bosses break that we will have difficulties. Political intereference like the appointmemet of ou pdv is also a big problem. We should have been winning consistently if Jake hd been retained.

We did have two nz coaches at the Lions saSUE and look what happened - bwahahahahahahaha  - okay to be fair  they had problems also beyond their control.

But I am not opposed to getting in a foreign coach in specialsit areas like the backline, scrum  etc but not really a head coach. The head coach must have a deep understanding of the way we play and keep us on track  - an exception maybe possible but great care must be taken.

the only reason why we had a great pre isolation record was due to the fact that we played a different brand of rugby and was based on brawn skills speed and power. not like the mindless meant to be brawn we see now. while the other countries has catched up to us in regards to the size and power side of things we have gone light years backwords in playing the game. where we dominated in the pack and in the backline its been a slow progression in the modern day rubbish we are seeing right now.

our pride takes a bit of hit but we need to accept that in the areas of backline play we are ultra rubbish. sorry to say but we lack. in the area of scrums and the basics we are up there but those that know the game are either not involved or are based overseas. the likes of gert small and co that are based overseas just shows that we cant have that type of coaching talent overseas. we need them in the country at a higher level to oversea the general path that we are taking and can implement changes to ensure we dominate on all fronts.

i think we need to move in that age of specialist coaches and look at the head coach role more a management role where by he delegates the technical areas the specialists. the days are gone that one guy can do everything so we need overseas help in the breakdown and backline areas. those our biggest concern. the likes of gert small os du randt and co are amazing forwards coaches so it just a matter fo getting the right guys into the mix. the currecnt crop of coaches the like of the tjop van graan and the laubser joke of a backline coach need to sacked as quickly as humanliy possible.

@sasuke i agree with you on many things but the statement that the games that we won against you pre isolation was due to bad refs is just a poor assesment seeing that in those days throwing a punch in a scrum was a natural as walking. those days everything went so its cutted both ways. i dont buy into that excuse. we were a better team from 1 to 15 in those years skils were much higher and the mindset was way more attacking. wish i could say the same these days

Don't know if I can draw a correlation between a country's fans and their players but some Saffer poster here are indeed softies. Complaining about referee bias, conspiracies and collusions to keep them from being the dominant rugby nation, while favoring the AB's. What a bunch of cry babies, the only reason Boks had a pre isolation advantage was because of bias SA refs especially at test level in SA, and an apartheid system that prevented touring teams bringing non white players, therefore your so caled pre isolation superiority was artificially contstructed to favor the Springboks. Now with use of neutral refs and players of whatever race who is the best in their position and presto equal playing field = superior AB record. I really respect the Bok team all Kiwi's do  but the bleating has to stop, be like your players and admit a loss is a loss and keep it on the field.

 I believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus

"I believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus" .....or perhaps in Federer winning Wimbledon and Ernie Els winning the British Open?

@carpertmuncher,

nah bro, i didnt say they were bad refs, for all i know they were the best refs ever as those games were way before my time.
but my dad use to own a bookstore and was big rugby nut as well, so there was never any shortage of rugby books from yesteryear and one in particular was on welsh and lions legend gareth edwards who pointed out that when planning thier tour of SA, there were plans implemeneted to counteract the expected biasedness of the saffa refs.
there many other comments from others as well, but that comment in particular always stuck with me.

like u said it was a two way street and NZ themselves had NZ refs, but like morgan freeman said, "what is verby is verby", lol.
while i said in that post i wont say anything about the whole neutral ref, it was an obvious but playful dig, but IMHO Boks did deservedly get the better of us in that era, and i wont say anything about the fact that more tests were played in SA then in NZ during that era, LMAO, :P

@ben10,

preisolation record,,,
All Blacks 69% winning percetage
Springboks 63% winning percentage

its a little hard to explain in a manner that u will understand,given the intellect u posses qualifies u for the paralympics, but i will type slowly so that u can understand.
69 is more the 63. if a number has more or is bigger then an other number, it means u have more then that, in this case All Blacks have had more success then the Boks in the preisolation era.

oh and FYI, the lions did havea NZ coach and when was the last time the lions won a currie cup before them??? :D

Sorry saSUE what you fail to understand is tha there was a side in the world that was better than you and better than any other nation. Hence logically we were the best.

Besides you probably played more of the weaker teams in any event. Further strip out all the tests won by cheating and your wins would drop by at lest 50% or so? Bwahhahahahahaha

No you played second fiddle to us and that is that no ifs and buts.

Poly the crybabies are those who allow the down under refs to get away with murder and say nothing. Those are the spineless jelly babies. So no the bleating will not stop. The message is nz must clean up their act.They are the laughing stock of world rugby in this regard. Their top ref dumped, paddy sacked and their captain know as mccheat. How much more of a message do you need before you now your rugby is rotten to the core?

I do recall Bryan Williams etc playing here and the abs still getting their usual beating. I wa a lighty then but recall Joggie Jansen giving Williams such a severe going over he lost his nerve completely. I may be wrong but from what I have read there were few mouries in the old ab sides so how much difference they would have made is debatable. You also conveniently omit the fact that we also suffered in that no players of colour were allowed to play for the Boks.

What you do not mention is the self serving relationship you have with islander rugby. happy to rape their talent but do zip to involve them in super 15 or a  the Rugby Championship.

saSue I also doubt these stats record the cavalier tests. I think  we win those tests 3-1 -  lost one of them because Naas Botha suddenly couldnt convert a kick.? Nz came over wanting to claw back some test losses and believed isolation had made us weak (it certainly didnt help) but to their dismay they received another hiding.

Then there were squeals that this was not their best side and should not form part of the test playing record. Hahahahahahaha so lets make it 23-16? a compfortable lead arising from many decades of competition. 

This the norm which we will be reverting to. All we have to get our house in order and, as Eddie Jones says, who will then be able to live with the Mighty Boks? certainly no the hapless abs as history shows.  Hahahahahahahahha

Beeno no ab worshipper for sure!

I beter provide some actual facts here b4 Bean Brain embarasses himself even more.

Before isolation: NZ 15 wins, SA 20 wins, 1 draw

After isolation: NZ 31 wins, SA 14 wins, 2 draws

Total: NZ 46 wins, SA 34 wins, 3 draws

fact is, nobody gives a shit about results from half a century agao and the ABs have owned us in the modern proffesional era. OWNED!!! 31-14!

As if thats not bad enuf but heres a moron like Bean Brain pretendng the Boks are better and trying to blame NZ cus the aparthied goverment wdnt let players of color play, as if thats anyones fault but our own!!!

When I read crap like this Im embaressed that Bean Brain is a fellow Sth African.

well given the get the jarpie campaign that has cost us numerous tests and our own politically related issues it is no wonder the tide has turned.so markedly.

Jallopy my guess is that embarassment is your natural state!! 

Please note those stats have already been provided. Please note saSUE and I were dicussing pre isolation so  folk indeed are interested. Also note politics stopped players of colour coming here but it also stopped players of colour playing for the Boks. Same cause effected both sides. Remove the cause and who knows how the balance would have shifted.

Jallopy have you any clue at all! Bwahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha what a dope