I'd favour a Jean/ Taute combination.....

You would have to look long and hard at Jean's stats to find performances at 12 as barren as those of Fransie Steyn. Sure he is a strong man as Shane Williams will attest....but he is not a fast reflex player. Witness the ongoing charge down problem he has.

Fransie needs to go back to 15 where he can wind up and let fly....and build up a head of steam. At 12 he is being cut down without any problem....and he seems unable to offload in the tackle. And it's not like playing centre is anything new. He was a far, far better fullback.

As far as Jean is concerned, I have to admit I was wrong about him shifting easily to 13.....he seems disconnected out there. But playing 12 for the Stormers quite recently, he was in good form.

That introduces Taute at 13. Which concerns me. I have seen plenty from Jordaan that suggests he is ready for the big time at 13.....not so much from Taute. Straight hard running usually leads to being tackled and turned in test rugby. Does this player have the guile and pace to make a difference. The jury is out.

But the benefit of getting Jean more involved, at 12, outweighs those concerns. I just hope Goosen stays healthy....Jantjies defending against the big Aussie loosies is not something I want to see.

Personally, i reckon Frans offers more at 12 than Jean does at the moment.

Frans has great vision and has the ability to consistently break the line and free up the explosive Taute.

On defense, he hardly slips a tackle... and often shuts down opposing threats.

Im a big fan of JDV, but i reckon his best may be behind him.

Frans and Taute could potentially be a wicked combination..

That being said, I think Taute would be a complete fullback in years to come!

 I'd prefer Frans at 12 and Jordaan at 13.

Taute vs Jordaan?

Hmmmm intresting.

Dunno hey... Not yet! Taute has shown his talent on just about every occasion that he has been on show for the poor Lions.

Jordaan needs to command a starting berth for the Sharks before getting into a Bok jumper.

Flash

I think that Jordaan is in fact the choice no 13 of the Sharks - he regularly play their for them on Super 15 and CC level.   Had concussion and was off for one week - thereafter was on the bench and came on in the second half.  

The problem is that on CC level the Sharks do not have a proper flyhalf - Viljoen is not a flyhalf's ass - or perhaps he is.   He has a Morne effect on the Sharks backline.   I would rather play Bosman at 10 - Whitehead at 12 and Jordaan at 13 and the Sharks backline will function more efficiently.

As to the issue of Taute and Jordaan.   Taute is a more physical player - not as speedy as Jordaan - who is a cleverer player and more a thinking one than Taute,   Taute has his benefits though - he is more like trying to force a brek and Jordaan would do a different style by affecting a break by guile.   I want to give you one example of what I mean withness the try he scored against the Reds in play-off in Brisbane.   He really made the try - running around Pietersen and fed the ball to the latter by means of an inside pass - allowing Pietersen to make a breask - when Pietersen was tackled Jordaan got the ball back and scored under the posts.

There is a place for Jordaan in Springbok rugby as well - proibably as an impact player from the bench - covering the center and wing positions.

I personally think that Francois Steyn would not play this weekend - he was still on crutches yesterday - and that is very likely that Taute will be at 13 and De Villiers at 12.  It would in any event be very dangerous to play him - he could just aggravate the injury.    However - he is likely to be back next week.   So Taute should have a full game to show his talents and he better use it - because it is a hard world out there and players should use every possible opportunity to enhance their own interest and stake their claim.    A Greyling type of action could be deadly career-wise.   I think Taute will make the grade and would watch him with interest. 

There is one other thing about Taute and that is the way he played at fullback for the Lions - he scored one of the best tries scored that year - playing from full back.   That is really when he came forth as a Super player.  

@clever

That are very delicious!

But I still think taute is better than jordaan at this time.

Taute, Lambo, Jordaan, Frans, Goosen, Jantjies, Serfontein... its so lekker to have such wonderful talent around!

Flash

Add JP du Plessis and Pat Howard to your list as well.    I rate both very highly.   Du Plessis really was a star in the WP backline over the past few weeks.  

Jordaan made a fantastic break in the S15 final against top quality opposition. In that match he beat more (4) defenders than any other player on either team. I'd say he has shown us more. But at this stage I'm willing to wait to see what happens....no sense in being an early mouth.

As far as Frans is concerned Flash, check out the stats....Frans has made one break in six tests this year and gained less metres than an out of sorts Jean.

go Taute!

 One thing that I really hate about couch commentators is that they always look at one thing that a player does and believe that he is the best there is and I have seen it for many years. Let me go back about 10 years when Marius Joubert made a fantastic break against the wobblies, dummied, pretend to kick and scored under the post. It was a fantastic piece of individual brilliance. By this single act people thought that he was the best 13 out there. I'm not saying Jordaan is a bad player that can only attack, I really like the look of him, but I want people to look at how the player plays through out the entire game and what impact he has on attack and defence. 

These are the attributes that I would look for in a 13 to see whether he is up to international standard.

Defence: Hardest position on the field to defend, you don't have the touch line and you have to trust the wing and your inside center to get there man and not follow the ball. 

Creating Space for your wingers: This is to me the key, we have fantastic wingers in both Habana and Pietersen and Jordaan showed that he can involve these guys by gettin the ball to them quickly but also give them enough space. 

Beating the defence: in the last 5 years there has been 3 world class 13's for me, they are o'driscoll, Conrad smith and Jacque Fourie. Out of the 3 Jacque is the only physical 13 that uses his strength where as the other two are smaller players but both defend well and use guile to beat the defence by smart running and reading the space. So for me Taute is more of a Fourie and Jordaan is like conrad smith and o'driscoll. 

Personally I would go for a player that would try to beat his man through space rather than take contact. I would also go for a player that has a great off load game. What I like about Jordaans play against the reds was that he was able to get the ball out wide and still be involved in the game, thus creating an overlap as the ball managed to get behind the defense. 

My  closing point is, don't just like at what the individual does in attack but look at his whole game and see whether he ads value to the team.

No contest, Frans and JP have been our best backs under Meyer. Jean is long done and has to go. Frans has been solid in a poor backline and showed with that break against NZ just what he is capable of.

The perfect centre combo would be Frans at 12 and Taute at 13. Jean, like Morne has to drop out of the 22 in total

Saffex

Come now - we are discussing this coming Satyrday's game - not what is to be hopd ofr in future.

Saffex

Come now - we are discussing the position this weekend - when Steyn is unlikely to play.   The latter was very problematic in recent tests and did nothing constructive - but showed some signs of life when Goosen replaced Morne in the test in Dunedin.   Would have liked to see Steyn in the game on Saturday - but I believe the chances of him playing is about 10%.  

If he keeps on playing like he did in earlier tests - he may have to be cautioned, since he showed very little in the POM tests and against Argentina and in Perth, where he made no impact whatsoever.   The saving grace for him is that Meyer wants some senior players next to Goosen - but that alone will in the long run save his skin.   Reputation does not really ensure survival in such cases.

Crap, Moz is saying Frans should move to 15 - what a stupid move that would be, it would be as bad as retaining Jean in the match 22

F Steyn back to 15 is not stupid. Hes a ball hogger at inside center and he can use his big boot more @ fullback. I do prefer Lambie @ fullback but Fransie is next best option.

"F Steyn back to 15 is not stupid. Hes a ball hogger at inside center and he can use his big boot more @ fullback. I do prefer Lambie @ fullback but Fransie is next best option."

My thoughts as well.,I totally agree.His big boot from the back would be a huge plus.

Jal you are clearly out of touch - Frans is no ball hogger, he is playing to a pattern under instruction from his coach - he is there to impose himself physically.

What gets me is how out of touch you lot are. Frans has been one of our best players and fools now want to move him to 15, away from the action and better still lets encourage him to hoof the crap out of the ball and concede as much possession as possible. I take it you are a fan of the Meyer gameplan then?

Wow ignorance is bliss. We have 3 obvious complete failures in the Bok backline in Morne, Jean and Pienaar and what do some clowns advocte - moving Frans to 15!!!!

Get with it man...........Meyer has lost Morne, thanks to public pressure........maybe he will eventually wake up to the fact that Jean has to go, Hougaard needs to move back to 9 and Lambie should be playing 15. Its so bloody obvious

No use trying to move Frans now just as he is showing a return to form. One has to recall his very good WC performances. Meyer is whipping this donkey into shape!! 

Jean as was noted in my post re Sabbaticals is a tired player and will come back better after a rest. Next year will probably be his last at international level. By then our younger players will be up and running. No problem.

Kingcorns point about the overall performance and not only a flash of brilliance or one strong point is very valid. Its the overall contribution that needs to be weighed up.

The move of Hougaard back to 9 is  a possibility but one wonders if he will ever really get into the groove of scrummie play.  Lambie or Taute should be tried at 15. 

As for the gameplan- snapster I trust you are not such a dope as you cannot see it was not the game plan that failed against nz. Please note that Louw was far better than wee brussouw  - that you have to admit.   This Bok pack is beginning to resemble a Beeno power pack but is still missing some notable players.

Meyer is marching on to glory! Ou mean ou has got that one right.

Imposing himself......returning to form????? It's in your heads guys, it's not happening on the field.

In Frans' last two games he has run 14 times for a total of 26 metres....not even 2 metres per run. Hell he could fall forward further than that.

And his iron man defence has accounted for 13 tackles and let 3 through. That's mediocre at best and a very low tackle count for an inside centre.

Frans is showing no signs of improvement.

Yes imposing, he always gains metres in heavy traffic - he has hardly been afforded space with Morne on his inside. He breaks the advantage line with his physicality and has done so in all his tests this year.

Its called perspective, the Boks have hardly been playing an expansive game.......Frans is there to batter sadly under the instruction of Meyer, much like Jean has been doing but far less effectively.

The one time Frans was afforded the opportunity to break he cut the Kiwi defence with ease. I dont recall a single missed tackle by Frans, he just does not miss tackles.

With Goosen at 10, we should see a more expansive approach and Frans should thrive

Frans is one of the first names you stick on the teamsheet at 12 - its a given and never to be questioned.

The question marks need to be pointed at Jean, Pienaar and Kirchner - thankfully the worst culprit in Morne is history - Meyer just has to wake up to the rest of the deadwood

Saffex

I watched the tests this year and in all the tests Steyn made just one significant break - for the rest he crashballed everything he possibly could.    Granted that break came after Goosen was brought on in the All Black game.- so there may be some justification in what you sid about playing outside Morne Steyn.

However, that one breaking of the line in 5 tests he played in was just not enough.   Another problem is that he goes to ground and do not even attempt to draw defenders in and off-load the balls to players running into space.  All-in-all Steyn was very, very average and not really of much value in attacking backline play.   I also noted that he missed at least two tackles in the All Black game.

I for one would have liked to see him operating alongside Goosen to see whether he improves as a result of faster and more efficient balls he is very likely to get.   IGowever, this is very unlikely to happen on Saturday.  If he continues  to play like he did in tests this year I believe that he is playing on reputation that is not being implemented in the games he plays in at present.

No amount of words about how imposing he is - when in fact he is not - is going to keep him in the Springbok team - he better buck up and start showing the coach and the broader public that he still deserve to be in the Springbok team.   

I am not in favour of wild suggestions about moving him to full back - he must stay ast 12 - but start to demonstrate that he in fact deserve to be in the team as a 12.

Saffex

May I add something more.   You said that De Villiers need to be removed and I agree 100% with you on that one.   However, I know you want Hougaard at scrummie - but that is a lost cause.   Please  look at the thread that I wrote on the scrummie issue and the problems we have in identifying a proper scrummie.   Hougaard just does not make the grade - he is not a natural scrummie and has too many problems that coaching could not solve in the ten tests he played in in that position.   Problem is his scrummie play deteriroated badly this year - that is why Meyer finally gave up on him and put him on the wing.

I do not really blame Meyer for that decision - so you will have to put up with Pienaar until a younger scrummie comes to the fore.   Also you said above that Steyn played according to the Meyer game plan.   Is that plan - whatever it is - not the reason for Pienaar playing like he did in the past two tests?   I firmly believe he is playing strictly according to instruction

Stampax, im not a fan of HMs kick & chase game but if u cant see the advantage of a fullback with a big boot then u shd rather talk rugby with my pal Bean brain. 

Dont blame the current coach, Fransie has allways been a ball hogger at inside center whatever coach he played for. As for out of touch u say "move" Fransie to fullback as if its not the other way round. out of touch wd be not knowing that Fransies original position is fullback & he only played centre as an emergancy in the 2007 WC. I do agree with you on JdV Pienar & Kirchener tho. They must all be dumped.    

Look Japjap if that is your best take on Frans over the years then you are as stupid as Beenbrain and co.

Damn right I'll blame the current coach regarding gameplan, but that has stuff all to do with Frans's form as he has been good to date in a conservative plan.

Yes there is an advantage in having a 15 with a big boot, but that is not the reason to move Frans there now is it?

Thats like selecting useless Morne to play for the Boks because he is/was a great goal kicker

Can u give me a few exampels of where Fransie had good games at inside center in the last 2 or 3 years? Tx!

With pleasure he was great in the first 2 tests against England and was the best centre on the park against NZ Japjap

Stampax, okay at least I know what Im dealing with here. Steyn looked very ordinary against the Poms & helped lose to the ABs with poor goalkicking. If those r his best games then theres not much more 2 debate.  Tx!

Japjap you know stuff all - only a complete idiot would blame a player for losing a game because of 50+m kicks being missed

 Fransie was "great in the first 2 tests against England ". You surely are taking the mickey? Frans ran the ball 20 times in those two tests and gained a miserable 37 metres.....less than 2 metres a carry.....he would have done better just belly flopping forward! Jean by contrast ran the ball 9 times and gained 57 metres.

As for this new convenient argument that nobody playing outside Steyn can make a break.....tell that to the stone known as Wynand Olivier. And certainly I never heard you making that excuse for Jean, who in any case broke often from inside centre.

Admit it, you're just making it up as you go.....