BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
01 Feb 2015, 16:31#2
Agreed snapster he looked very good. They must not overplay him as I thought he faded last year as the season went on.We have an awesome bunch of locks. Bakkies thankfully is reitired and wee matfiled 106 kg should do the same immediatley!
I ask all his groupies to take it on the chin and put the Boks above their fantasies.
Thanks
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
01 Feb 2015, 17:21#3
Matfield and Bakkies were great in their day but their day was more than 5 years ago.......put simply, we dont need them at all anymore.
We have better depth at lock than we have EVER had. Sadly we just dont have the coach to do our depth justice.......man it pisses me off.
Meyer is bloody useless
AGAgPleezDeddy
Club Pro900 posts
AGAgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
01 Feb 2015, 18:21#4
He looks a very good prospect, for sure. If he can have a great S 15 then having someone who can play both Lock and Flanker to high level will be extremely valuable for the RWC Squad.Saffex what do you make of young Liebenberg, I was extremely impressed by his performance yesterday.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Feb 2015, 21:13#5
APD
At 20 years of age this youngster looks very good as a future prospect - but he is playing for the wrong franchise. He will get minimal game time because - knowing Ludeke - he is bound to play third fiddle to Pierre Spies and Arno Botha. Should rather have gone to the Sharks.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
01 Feb 2015, 21:43#6
Hahaha....now it's du Plessis. Say isn't the Stephanie dream three years old already.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Feb 2015, 22:04#7
Mozart
There is strong competition among the locks - which is a very healthy scenario on the whole. Du Toit remains the top prospect to partner Etzebeth - but there are other contenders in the field of play such as De Jager, Du Plessis and Willemse among others.
Just a reminder - did you not call Du Plessis a "dumb muscle" at one stage last year? I can recollect something to that effect.
This question remains would you rather have a physically-deficient player like Matfield as a lock or a physically much stronger and more active player that contributes to Tig ht 5 play as a lock.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
01 Feb 2015, 22:12#8
Last I checked Jan was firmly entrenched in the Bok side but hey ho what do we know.
Certainly far better than Jean was aged 21. Easily the best young 12 in the game.
du Plessis is going to be huge. It's going to be tough fitting the likes of du Plessis, Eb en, PSDT, Willemse and Lood in a match 23.
Nice problem to have.....but we have Meyer on board who is still dabbling with useless Matfield.
And yes Mike, Moz would prefer the liability that is Matfield to quality youngsters like PSDT or du Plessis........its the conservative way.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
01 Feb 2015, 23:18#9
Better than Jean ......you have to be kidding Dave. Jean plays most of his first 12 tests out of position on the wing and scores 10 tries. Step by contrast score one try in his first 12 tests as a starter. Jean was a force.... Step is a place holder.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
01 Feb 2015, 23:34#10
Yep better than Jean......has far better all round skills. Jean was good, but never a man to beat his opposite number through skill. He had a good rugby brain, ran good lines......but was never silky like Jan is.
Jan aged 21 is better than Jean was aged 21......Jean's tries early on were not skilful....Jean only made a name for himself from 23 years on. Jan is better.
I liked Jean, but I prefer Jan......his break yesterday reminded me just how good he is. Sadly under Meyer our centres see little ball and poor Jan played out of position at 13 outside Jean who did stuff all, all year
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Feb 2015, 00:07#11
There's funny! He is no better than your former obsession Wynand Olivier.
02 Feb 2015, 00:10#12
Jan has scored 2 tries internationally and he's far more suited to 12 than Jean ever was, De Villiers would have made a far better 13 had he been put and kept there but Fourie was there.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
02 Feb 2015, 00:22#13
Olivier was bloody good......as skilled as Jean, but Jean was better.
Jan is the best of the 3
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Feb 2015, 06:39#14
Yes Shezza but one of Steps tries was as a substitute. I excluded Sub games to make the comparison even....in their first 12 full tests, Step scored once....Jean 10 times. Hero vs pretender.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Feb 2015, 08:15#15
How did this thread get from Jacques du Plessis - a lock - to Jan Serfontein - a center? I now Mozart use his derogatory term for Du Toit and Dave mixed it up with the other Mozart derogatory term for Serfotein, Why do we have to use self-devised names for players and not use their real names?
It is always great to discuss the top players of the past - for one was always one of De Villiers admirers - definitely the best center we had since the professional era. However, the question remains - is he still the great player he was in the past?
His performances in 2014 showed a serious decline compared to 2013. He was regretfully twice injured - the second injury more serious than the first. However, the question remains - is he going to make a comeback performing on the same level s he did in 2013 and earlier?
I doubt it very much - am afraid he is one of the past players and it is not even remotely logical to compare him and for instance Jan Serfontein. They are entirely different types of players. The issue is what is to be done in future not what has been done in the past. Anyway Mozart - why did you not answer my question about the issue of Matfield?
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Feb 2015, 21:23#16
Mike my position on Matfield was clearly articulated in my core players for the Boks post. Matfield like Jannie is in the group that have to prove themselves year by year.
But I would be aiming at a Willemse/ Etzebeth partnership.....with Matfield on at minute 60, to captain us to victory. I would start with Strauss as the formal Bok captain.....replaced by Bismarck when Victor comes on.
I trust that helps.
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
02 Feb 2015, 21:30#17
Given the presence of the great Schalk Burger who but for injury would have captained the Boks there is absolutely no need for the smooth talking hypnotic wee matfiled. In addition you will have on the field Vermuelen the Stormers captain and Bissie the Sharks captain. Quite possibly also Jean the current Bok captain. My guess is we will somehow manage without wee matfiled. Time to show the show pony the door! We cannot afford to field a tight 4 against NH sides. Not such a problem against the wee abs but agaisnt tough packs NO .
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
02 Feb 2015, 22:15#18
Imagine bringing Matfield on for the last 20 ahead of PSDT, Lood or du Plessi s......ish
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Feb 2015, 22:19#19
Mozart
The question remains - what proof did Matfield provide in 2014? I am not sure that there really was anything of substance. Our Tight 5 was weaker than in 2013. This could have been caused by a weakening of our props - but I think the real problem was Matfield. The way some teams dealt with our Tight 5 was totally unacceptable. That was the main reason why our winning record in 2014 was poor compared to 2013.
The opposition forwards walked over Matfield in maul situations like he was not there and his famed line out takes was good in June - but deteriorated badly and by the EOYT became a rarity in games. Statistically he ended up taking 4 line outs in a game - which for any lock is not realistic.
I believe he is playing on reputation - not on actual performances in games. He made a lot of tackles - but those were virtually all in the weak category. His ball carries in traffic was virtually non-existent.
I cannot see how a player coming from the bench can and should captain a Springbok side - it just is not realistic. If a Tight 5 player is the captain - then the VC should be wider out -even among the loosies. They rarely are replaced and that means that they have no trust in the VC to take over the captaincy when the captain is benched. Wrong concept I am afraid.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
02 Feb 2015, 22:25#20
We lost 4 of our 9 major tests last season thanks to physical liabilities like Matfield on board.
02 Feb 2015, 23:57#21
We have a nice problem at lock...
WHo to choose?
PSD?
Eben?
Jacques?
Groot Baba from FS
Ruan Botha
...im not even thinking too much about it, those are just 4 names that i thought of first... i know there are others.
Willemse isnt in the same league though Saf.
03 Feb 2015, 02:19#23
Mozart that sort of try rate is impossible for a test center nowadays, in fact the only player that has had a try to match ratio like that in the past 3 years is Julian Savea.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
03 Feb 2015, 02:40#24
Mozart
The situation is that players must always be rated on present PERFORMANCES - accomplishments relates to the past and in many cases are not maintained at present. The norm should be an equal playing field for every player and only if players are on par - should past accomplishments and experience come into the picture.
Otherwise we are going further down this year than we were last year. The playing of players like Bakkies Botha and Matfield this year in fact cost us dearly - especially in our Tight 5. The loss ratio with among others those two players in the engine room cost us dearly. They were there on reputation - not present performa nce abilities.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
03 Feb 2015, 03:29#25
So scores are lower now than in the past? I must say I don't believe that's true Shezza. Still I take your point that jean's try rate was hard to match. But is one try by step good enough, did he do anything special in all those 2014 starts....I think not.
As for predictions....they aren't worth a damn until we see some real results against test quality opponents.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
03 Feb 2015, 03:57#26
Mozart
Just some questions
* Since when is tackling the main function of a lock?* Is quality of tackles not also to be considered? * Is it of any value if a lock makes tackles and neglects his actual performance requirements up front?
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
03 Feb 2015, 20:37#27
Oh boy I cant wait to rub some ignorant followers noses in it when it comes to the impressive Lood this season.....the same lad who made the S15 side of the year last season playing for the hopeless Cheetahs......he must have had a really average season to have achieved that accolade......the ignorance level of some is beyond comprehension.
Lood was huge last s15, he was the best lock in SA by some distance.
Cant wait for the nose rubbing......its going to be easy work......Lood performs every game.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
03 Feb 2015, 20:44#28
We have more depth at lock than we have EVER had......we have test stars in the making in Etzebeth, PSDT, Willemse, Lood and du Plessis.
Add impressive youngsters like Lewies, Jean Kleyn, Ruan Botha, Mostert, Peet Marais, Jandre Marais, Quinn Roux and Carl Wegner
Not to mention U20's JD Schickering, RG Snyman, Nic Janse v/Rensburg and Jason Jenkins
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
03 Feb 2015, 20:46#29
APD - I thought young Liebenberg at 8 for the Bulls looked an outstanding propsect.....he made a massive impact against Sarries.....he was not far behind du Plessis for MOM......the 19 year old is one to watch. I hope Spies does not keep him out.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
03 Feb 2015, 20:47#30
Lomp may be huge....but unfortunately as the Bargies showed, he is soft.
AGAgPleezDeddy
Club Pro900 posts
AGAgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
03 Feb 2015, 20:54#31
We definitely have a great set of young locks in Etzebeth, Willemse, PSDT, Lood, Du Plessis.
It's a shame Flip is a bit injury prone, because he's a more experienced option that is still physically dominating, Moz, remember that Lood is still pretty young and some of the tricks of the trade and more aggressive stuff will be picked up as he gets older and mo re experienced. He had a good campaign for the Cheetahs last year and can hopefully build on it.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
03 Feb 2015, 21:38#32
I respect you views APD, but I have to demur on the Lomp issue. Our best young locks in my view are Eben and Willemse, who is massively strong. None of the others look like world beaters to me. Although one of these days QuinnRoux is going to surprise us all and get off the bench!
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
03 Feb 2015, 22:52#33
Oh would that be because some little 9 ran under him and Bismark....or would it be him being pushed out to touch......wow if that is the measure of how hard a player is, no player has any hope.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
03 Feb 2015, 22:54#34
Last I checked Quinn Roux was starting every game
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Feb 2015, 04:04#35
There is a long argument about other players - but my viewpoint is that if Matfield played on Saturday against Saracens - Saracens would have won the game. That match was effectively won by four key players in the team - Du Plessis, Liebenberg, Labuschagne and Serfontein.
The moment Labuschagne and Liebenberg left the field Saracens started to get easy balls for their backline and they started to score tries.
Even though he did score a try - Spies made virtually no other contribution when he came on.
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
04 Feb 2015, 12:30#37
Liebenberg was extremely good and at 19 can only get better (He is of course from Cape Town!!!!!!!!!!!!!).
Bulls can put in one heck of a pack unless they opt for wee matfiled and spiesies! They are daft enough to do this!!!
Greying/Nyankane (I prefer Greying), Strauss, Marcell van der Merwe, Flip, Du Plessis. What a tight 5. Add in Lappies, and Liebenberg as loosies. I have my doubts about the quality of Stegmann. He might have played his best rugby. How about Arno (103kg) at 6?
Backs of Hougaard, Pollard, Jan/Odendaal, JJ, Basson Kriel and Ndungane/JJThe wing Ulengo at 100 kg is one to watch but he had a very passive game against Sarries. Hopefully he has more fire and go in him than that. Time to try Spiesies as a wing as he sure aint no forward. Need to see more of Travis Ismail who at 96 kg on the wing may stand a chance of making it. Piet van Zyl at scrummie and Hougaard on the wing is another possiblity.
Bulle should make at least the semis if injuries and bent refs dont derail them and the coach has half a clue. The bulle coaching has lacked nous. Wee matfield maybe is having too great a say and making matters worse? Bulle have a great squad but lack brain power.Beeno available for consultations at a moderate fee!
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
04 Feb 2015, 13:35#39
I looked at the Bulle website today and Arno is listed at 103 kg.Spies and matfiled will sink the bulle's chances. How they cant see all this is amazing.Sorry to hear Flip is out for so long. This reduces the chances of matfiled getting the boot. Loosing guys like Willemse is very very bad. We are now loosing top young players.
Your loose trio could work.
