Is Eben our BIP?

The guy goes from hero status to dead average for me.

Maybe I don't know enough about lock play. 

Under Coetzee, I still maintain, Eben was the only player that got better and better. A miraculous achievement if ever there was one. I've got no problem with him as a stand alone. But its when I  eating to compare his performances to that of some of the other, less experienced guys, that questions arise.

Here's my gripe. 

When I think back, I just struggle to recall many moments where he has stood out. He has also not won any MOTM awards that I can recall. It's quite rare for him to make much ground on a run and his offloads are pretty meh. 

If he really is the world's best, or closest to best lock, then shouldn't we regularly be crediting him with more after games?

He just doesn't seem to live up to the billing. 

Despite everyone's issues with Siya Kolisi, the guy is growing one me. 

I know they play in different positions,  but thinking back over this year's internationals so far, Kolisi stands out far more for me then Eben in terms if affecting matches. So does PSDT, by a mile.

Are we all falling victim to the thing that we promise never to do...paying lip service to perceived reputation instead of what is actually happening on the field?

Moz made a post last week about Mostert doing smart things off the ball. Snyman is a similar type of player and PSDT appears to read the game like a test level player should.

The question for all of you is this...

What exactly does Eben bring to the party that the above three don't?

Eben had a massive game in the first English test after his long injury absence, but since then he was nothing better than average,   

There seems to be an entitlement approach on his side and he does not need to produce top level rugby performances to ensure his automatic selection.   This make it appear as if the problem may be psychological and not physical.  

Test players always do better when their positions are under threat.  That is when they start really performing game after game.  For me a hard working player is always preferable.

I am not suggesting Etzebeth should be dropped - the physical ability is there - but the application by him vary from match to match.

On the sideline I like what I saw week after week by JD Schickerling - to my mind an improvement on Snyman and even Mostert.      

I see the better lock combination being Etzebeth, De Jager and Schickerling.   

In view of our loosie problem I hope Vermeulen lasts through to the WC - but I have my doubts about that as well.   There is another bothering problem and that is Whiteley.   The news about his latest injury is that it is in fact a groin injury.   The previous one took him out of playing rugby for months.   Other than concussion problems - knee and groin injuries are the most likely to be career-ending.   What is the lastest news about the Whiteley injury?

If both Vermeulen and Whiteley are in fact not available - I would rather see Du Toit moved to 8 with the back-up coming from Augustus of WP,   Looking at other options at 7, there is -

*   a bloke by the name of Van Dyk - playing for WP that could be the best 7 available; and 

*   Kyle Brink of the Lions as well.    

I have problems with all of the Du Preez twins and Ackerman  because I believe they meet requirements physically - but need finesse and their ball skills are questionable.  

Cera

Forget Bakkies and Matfield?

Not while any of us are still sucking air.

Plum

The problem is here that Matfield and Botha was great in their heyday - but by 2014 there was only Matfield playing and he tried desperately to destroy his reputation.   

The three world analysts and Ceradunce wanted the praise-singing to continue and when anybody differed from them members were attacked on the basis of lese majeste.    Nobody bar perhaps Beeno wrote anything negative about Matfield at the time before 2011 -  but whenever anything was written about the period 2014 to 2015 - the dunce went bananas . 

Did I? How do you know? What I actually thought at the time was that Victor was not the force he was before but still a world class player. That was the truth and remained so until he retired for good. Where was Steph in 2014 or 2015? Nowhere. Lood was exposed. We didn't have great depth and those Meyer did try largely failed. Even the great Bekker. This is what you could not understand. You still don't. Instead you slander him, and others, without any factual basis. Quite frankly, your argument is a mess. 

1. Eben
2. Marx
3. Faf
4. Dyanti 
5. Willie

Quite frankly the whole issue is way above your understanding AO.  So why react when facts speak for themselves?   Matfield in 2014 and 2015 was not a shadow of the player he used to be before 2011 and Meyer's poor selection strategy and absence of a comprehensive game plan has been proven time and time again.     

Draad

I never said anything to the effect that Etzebeth should be dropped from the team.    I merely think that in some matches he did not show the high performance level we got accustomed to.    That I believe is factual.

Eben was the strongest lock in the competition. I haven't seen another lock drag three players 5+ metres from a standing start. His power game is immense. His defence is highly formidable. I'd love to pair Snyman with Eben. It would be overkill. The most hard-nosed lock duo in world rugby. With skills. 

'Must say, not hearing many Yarpies congratulating the Mighty All Blacks on yet another Rugby Championship victory?'

They're far too intoxicated by the euphoria of the flash-in-the-pan win over the ABs a fortnight ago. The illusions will be short-lived when the ABs rub their noses in it next week. However don't count on any acknowledgement at that point either . They'll be griping about the usual - refs, selections, the coach, etc.

Guten Abend Nboobigumbo. Wenn mich nicht alles täuscht, du bist Herr Drache. Ja? Ja, klar! 

Zier dich nicht. 

The forwards are used to generate that momentum for the backs. Eben, Steph, Whiteley, Beast and Kitshoff are our preferred options. If you see a forward out wide coming onto the ball at pace it's most likely to be Kolisi. I think we have the balance right, and that gets clean quick ball for the backs more often than not. 

"I can't believe this BS. "

Neither can I, Etzebeth is our best lock, he's not the best Bok lock ever but the best of the current crop. Talking about locks, Mostert is lucky to be in the Bok squad, he pales into insignificance when compared to Etzebeth.

Mostert has had some good games, but some bad ones too. We are selling ourselves short by benching Snyman. Eben and Snyman is the way to go. That's a lock pairing to be feared. Nice and combative, tough and dynamic. 

"Mostert has had some good games, but some bad ones too."

Really? Which ones were they? I've never seen him have a good game either at S15 or Test level. He certainly doesn't belong in the test arena.

He was good in the All Black test. I haven't watched his Super rugby games though. He is a good bench option. I had thought he'd be a good 7, but Steph will be hard to dislodge. If Steph can build on his defensive performance against Austria and omit those errors he committed against the All Blacks, the same errors that have been persisting for a few years now, he'll be entirely immovable. 

AO

The Du Toit errors are what?   If you refer to missed tackles only - those are often influenced by the fact that he routinely has a vey high tackle count and in that case he attempted tackles other players would not attempt.   That could potentially lead to missed tackles.   

" He was good in the All Black test."

Gosh....I need to have my eyes tested.

Apparently yes. 

Credit where it is due, he was one of our better players. I'm not necessarily a Mostert fan. I wanted Steph retained at lock and wasn't happy with Mostert's performance in the second Puma test , but he was very good against New Zealand. 

Overall, Snyman is the best partner for Eben. These two are in a class of their own. I don't understand why Rassie won't demote Mostert for Snyman. We lose nothing, but gain so much more. 

Mate, You keep telling us he was good against NZ......I'm saying he was useless and that he's never been good . Tell me exactly what he did that was "good"

Guys...calm down.

I'm not deriding him. I'm not saying he should be dropped.

I asked a question.

One that nobody has answered aside from simply saying he is our best. I already said that he is perceived as being our best. So you all just reiterated what's already been said.

What I'm asking is this...

What does he offer that the other guys don't? As far as I can tell, PSDT has outplayed him both on defence at in Men in meterms made.

Draad, yes, a backline player, hence the question. 

Asking questions is how humble an non egotistical people learn. I know you agree. 

So enlighten me. 

I fully agree with Shark. When close, Eben isn't helping much at the ruck so he'd be much better suited to running a Whitely type line at pace onto the ball. He is relatively quick for his size. He just doesn't look like he has the presence of mind to pick the correct moment though. For me, that's the problem with his game in general, lack of awareness and guile.

And to further my question...why do we so rarely talk about what a good game Eben.has had after the match. Even for the stormed he almost never steAls the show. Odds are that if he were as good(remember, we're calling him potentially our best Bok) as we think then it should happen more often. The way Mostert, PSDT and even Snyman do from time to time.

No? Remember how Bakkies did that? Isn't Even our new enforcer? Been clearly isn't in the same.league. The question is, how far below Bakkies he actually sits.

ORGANHUFFER STKES GOLD

Eben was the strongest lock in the competition. I haven't seen another lock drag three players 5+ metres from a standing start. His power game is immense. His defence is highly formidable. I'd love to pair Snyman with Eben. It would be overkill. The most hard-nosed lock duo in world rugby. With skills. 

You have to be mentally deranged to not acknowledge what a fine lock Etzebeth is. This is about as crazy as those knocking Du Toit. Last i heard Du Toit is leading the tackle count in the RC!.Man of the match etc But these oaks say Du Toit cant tackle bwahahahahahahahahhahahaha

Eben has been doing very well and cannot be faulted. To think also there are those whose idea of a great lock would include the extremely pap wee victor - weakest lock ever , a backline wannabee who shunned the hard yards etc. No more BS about Eben oaks its embarrassing!

Ndabonkers you sound like a kiwi trying to look like a South African turncoat - also sounds like that turncoat ou rooitwitterbug!

Steph has had his moments and they've been very good, but I think you are missing alot of the work Eben does do. His defence is very good, without the mistakes Steph makes in every game. He is more mobile and our best lineout jumper. His around the field is of the his quality.

@Denny: His defence was extremely good. He bettered Steph in the All Black test. Was among our best. 

I posted a video on Steph's first half. The one The Church of Steph said I was lying about. No, Mostert was definitely the better of the two in that game. 

Plum, in short, who would you prefer to tackle, Eben or Mosterdt? Who would you prefer to get tackled by? There is more to rugby than the stats you can read in columns after the match. It's a bit more complicated than that, but it's a start. I'll try and elaborate later.

There is no other player in world rugby with the same presence...that's why teams target him.

Mozart and AO - the self=proclaimed world experts - are still targeting Du Toit and they last week wanted Mostert at 7 and would prefer it if Du Toit is dropped from the squad.

Then they proclaim they do not hate players - that really is an indication of the extent of their real hatred.   

They are back on track - but changed their previous selection of Mostert at 7 by now campaigning for Louw being selected in the place of Du Toit at 7,  

Honesty ios totally absent in their case.        

You have just defined hate as wanting any player player you like demoted for another. This puts you in danger, as you categorise yourself as hateful in the process. You can never take one step without finding your foot in your mouth.

AO

No it became hate after years of campaigning against a specific  player and in doing that try to discover anything you can dream up to criticize a player and never giving him credit for anything.  Also to that building up falsely a possible alternative;   The latter could entail lying about what the alternative player achieved and that is perhaps the most noticeable of all in Mo zart and you.    

Years of campaigning? You are literally losing your mind. 

Lying about the potential of an alternative? Lets see open up the Lügnerin files:

1. Hates Morné. Lies about performance of Lambie
2. Hates Morné. Lies about performance of Goosen
3. Hates Frans. Lies about performance of Damian
4. Hates Esterhuizen. Lies about performance of Damian
5. Hates Am. Lies about the performance of Kriel 
6. Hates Victor. Lies about the performance of Lood
7. Hates Victor. Lies about the performance of Steph
8. Hates Alberts. Lies about the performance of Coetzee
9. Hates Du Preez. Lies about the performance of Reinach 
10. Hates Hougaard. Lies about the performance of Reinach
11. Hates Louw. Lies about the performance of Coetzee

You're right Draad. It's nowhere near as simple as that.

All I know is, the Lions with their teensy pack have no trouble shutting Eben and PSDT up. Been doing it in the regular. 

How much does that presence actually count for?

Far as I can tell, the best counting to do is on the scoreboard. 

That's the problem with Eben. He is all presence and very little else.