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FORUM / RUGBY /  Is Heyneke Meyer Out?

Is Heyneke Meyer Out?

Started by clevermike17 REPLIES505 VIEWS· 30 Nov 2015, 02:11
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
30 Nov 2015, 02:11
#1
30 Nov 2015, 02:11#1
The following from News24:-
"Bye-bye, Heyneke Meyer.

That’s the general feeling among the 29 voters who have to decide the future of the Springbok coach at a meeting of the SA Rugby Union (Saru) on December 11.

Saru will also have taken note of the fact that Allister Coetzee’s Japanese club, the Kobe Steel Kobelco Steelers, will not stand in his way if he is chosen as Meyer’s successor.

The Lions will probably also not make it difficult for the other strong contender, Johan Ackermann.


But the build-up to the meeting is playing out like a political campaign behind the scenes and several of the unions’ votes could be swung at the last moment.   Each of the country’s 14 unions has two votes, with Oregan Hoskins as Saru president holding the 29th.


In an intriguing development behind the scenes recently, there was a meeting planned for only the presidents of the northern unions.   Then a meeting was called with all 14 union presidents. It’s unclear if these meetings did take place and who attended.

But Meyer’s future can even be decided by the winner of a battle between the southern and northern presidents.


Most of the southern presidents want his head to roll, while some northern presidents are still undecided about whether he should be fired and, if so, who his replacement should be.

While the general feeling seems to be that Meyer has had his chance and regeneration is needed, he can still be asked to coach the team for another year. This will apparently give Saru the opportunity to start the process of finding a suitable successor – there is even the possibility that a special committee could be appointed to drive the process.


A Saru spokesperson declined to answer all the questions posed to him by Rapport, City Press’ sister paper, regarding the exact process around determining Meyer’s future.

But he did say Saru’s executive committee would make a recommendation about Meyer’s fate, after which the general council would vote on it at the meeting.


Meyer’s contract expires at the end of the year and, even if it had been extended before the World Cup, as is understood to be the case, that does not guarantee he will keep his job.


It’s not only Meyer who is anxious about his career.

Only five of his World Cup management team of 20 members – Ian Schwartz (team manager), De Jongh Borchardt (media manager), Albe Visser (video analyst), JJ Fredericks (logistics manager) and Charles Wessels (operations manager) – are permanent employees of Saru, according to Rapport’s information.

The medical team of Craig Roberts (team doctor), Vivian Verwant, Rene Naylor (both physiotherapists) and Daliah Hurwitz (massage therapist) has been kept on since the time of Peter de Villiers and could remain for longer if its members are available.

Saru will decide on this, and not Meyer or his successor.


The future of other management team members such as Annelee Murray (administrative and client services manager) will depend on their individual contracts with Saru.

Murray is not a permanent employee, but her contract is not dependent on the Springbok coach."


It will be far wiser to extend Meyer's contract for a year and go through a thorough  professional process to find a new coach than to appoint a failure from the past like Coetzee without a proper professional assessment as coach.    


In a real professional environment neither Pieter de Villiers nor Heyneke Meyer would have been appointed as Springbok coach.   Basically the reasons for that   statement are different - but in the end we have had two failed coaches not delivering the goods,   


Lets forget the CC level coaching and look at what happened on Super Rugby level.   Heyneke was the better selection based on that - but he failed miserably because his selections and game plan got stuck in the past and he was unable to think of rugby in present terms.                     

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
30 Nov 2015, 02:15
#2
30 Nov 2015, 02:15#2
 John the Baptist couldn't have coached the untalented new young guns....going down.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,279 posts
30 Nov 2015, 02:16
#3
30 Nov 2015, 02:16#3
Yes I agree. Rather keep Meyer than replace him with another dolt. This will at least give ample time to find a suitable replacement. (Most likely Robbie Deans or someone else with a proven track record)
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
30 Nov 2015, 06:40
#4
30 Nov 2015, 06:40#4
 Sure Mozart
John the Baptist knows just about as much of real rugby as Meyer does.  And nobody could coach the untalented geriatrics into playing rugby anymore so they were the main failures in the squad in any event.    
LU
lunaticClub Pro305 posts
30 Nov 2015, 07:34
#5
30 Nov 2015, 07:34#5
 The problem facing the rugby lords in South Africa is not so much if Meyer must go than who the h3ll do you replace him with?  Coetzee is really not any better and it is doubtful if any foreign coach will stick around with all the political interference in the running of the show.
Meyer needs a fat PK and a "board" of advisers - and a decent selection panel where he does not have the final say and players are selected on merit, bugger this "experience" and quota bulldust. And they need  a backline coach with some credentials - the current guy is utterly useless.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
30 Nov 2015, 09:03
#6
30 Nov 2015, 09:03#6
 
You guys are so hopeful.

Reality is obviously not that pleasant to look at, huh?

Bottom line is that contracting this fool for another year just delays the inevitable.

Why hire a lot of additional people just so that one man can do his job properly?

We have already seen how he messed everything up. He just can't do the job. No matter who holds his hand.

It's like hiring a quota at work to replace a man who ran his section perfectly ... only to find that you need to hire several others so that you can keep this incompetent quota employed ... for tax benefits. 

Another thing ... do you guys honestly think that the ANC run SARU would be-able to attract a top line international coach?

You need your head read if you do.

No professional coach is going to touch this team. Be dictated to ... told how many of which race to select ... or it's you job ... and oh by the way ... we want to be number 1 in the world so you better win.

We have no choice but to go along with what's available locally ... and that I'm afraid is another incompetent, race based selection.




BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
30 Nov 2015, 09:10
#7
30 Nov 2015, 09:10#7
CC, you are 100% right! I foresee a dark four years to come! 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
30 Nov 2015, 09:49
#8
30 Nov 2015, 09:49#8
 The way coaches are appointed has nothing to do with merit and everything to do with political expediency.   In the case of the Stromers it is clear that gert Smal put his foot down and said no - but how long will he last?  
The other bugger-up was made by the Sharks when their dud John Smit decided to terminate the services of Plumtree to bring in his pals into the coaching set-up.
The whole coaching and selection process in SA is farcical - hence the poor results of the teams in Super Rugby and in tests.    If you do not have experienced and competent coaches - who in selection has to bring in players on racial/political basis in any event - you can only end up with an unholy mess and a decline of the country in ranking as a rugby playing country.
The best thing to happen is that the country be banned from playing international rugby until such time as team selection is done on MERIT without regard to political interference leading to race-based selection.         
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
30 Nov 2015, 12:09
#9
30 Nov 2015, 12:09#9
 I fully agree that extending Meyer's term for one year will be delaying the inevitable CC. 
Strictly on numbers, Coetzee was SA's best performing coach last year and i don't think he is the best choice but he will certainly be an improvement on Meyer. 
Taking the above into account...isnt Akkaerman/Cois the best man/men for the job? The main argument against him seemingly being that he is green. Actually, that's the only argument against him, as far as i can tell.
Because if they go the Meyer route for another 12 months. Fine, maybe he improves, though highly unlikely. But then if he will certainly be replaced it means the Boks won't make any ground over the next twelve months and then the new couch will also have a settling in period after Meyer's inevitable sacking. So, we could be waiting for 24 months before we see many real and lasting change. 
Remember the KES boy who took over the Proteas at 21 years of age. Captaining guys who were his heroes when he was twelve years old. He struggled in the beginning and many didn't like him but he lead the the Proteas to series wins in Oz, England and India. He was green as F and as time goes on we'll all miss him more and more i feel.
So, if we are gonna assign the next 24 months to building, planning blah blah blah. Why not invest those 2 years in Akkerman. A guy who actually deserves it and i think everyone will agree seems to want to play the rugby we all want to see. 
Considering the options available and the situation we find ourselves in, I would go for an aggressive early decision and show some intent. Yes, his team was mid-table in S15, but they destroyed all comers in the CC. Their CC performance this year were nothing short of remarkable really. They travelled superbly well in the S15 and were only just ousted by the Stormers for the top SA conference spot. Lets also remember that the most well known player he had to start with was Jantjies - A guy who only his dad rated. In terms of recognising talent, creating synergy, transformation and just down right respect...i can't see anyone more deserving.
But nah, in SA we want to do things the hard way. There a million other irrelevant  considerations we take into account before the ones that actually matter.  
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
30 Nov 2015, 13:16
#10
30 Nov 2015, 13:16#10
 
Can't argue with your reasoning, Plum.

It makes sense to invest quality time in Ackerman. He's not a stupid man and has learnt a great deal in 2 seasons.

He seems to bring the best out in his team. They all play with passion and for each other.

He in fact is the only log ical choice ... and Swys of course.

A potent team gave Meyer a few Super Rugby titles. Even Snorre won the Tri Nations without any effort on his part.

You've convinced me, Plum. I like it. You should think about sales. I can see you making a fortune in that field.


PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
30 Nov 2015, 13:32
#11
30 Nov 2015, 13:32#11
Haha thanks CC :) It's just that, I know, if the Boks play the way the Lions have been lately I'll have those goosebumps again when they sing the anthem. That's all I want. Not the sense of dread I've been filled with lately. Sucks that the Lions will lose him though, really sucks! We can't have it all hey. Anyone know a good cloning clinic? Could we interest you in a catelouge CC :)
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
30 Nov 2015, 13:46
#12
30 Nov 2015, 13:46#12
 
All I need is for Coetzee to be appointed as Ackerman's replacement.

If that ever happens, Plum ... I'll make it my life's mission to find out exactly where you live ...


WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
30 Nov 2015, 14:20
#13
30 Nov 2015, 14:20#13
 Ya'll could do worse than appointing Deans .Pretty sure he would work in better with Saffa players than the Wobblies who feel the need to argue about every damn thing with their player power and "branding " nonsense .Like Kiwis you guys have more respect for the coach and look to your senior player group more too .Deans was wasted on the wallies and has been given very little credit although he is due .
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
30 Nov 2015, 15:56
#14
30 Nov 2015, 15:56#14
 We don't have the players....never seen a worse crop of wings or loosies. The rest aren't world beaters either. Sad but true.
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
30 Nov 2015, 17:01
#15
30 Nov 2015, 17:01#15
Agree that we are struggling for wings a tad Moz. Though I certainly don't agree on the loose front. Plus, a good coach should be able to fill these cracks are there is a decent ago nt of talent in the pool. I'd like to see a. Unbiased comparison between what we have now as compared to the two world cup winning squads from 95 and 07... Fancy the task Moz?
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
30 Nov 2015, 17:33
#16
30 Nov 2015, 17:33#16
 Plum
The unfortunate part is that Mozart's assessments are not based on performance - but on prejudice.  The prejudice relates to the reputation of players.  He would tell you what the players used to be capable off as factual insofar as their present performances are concerned.
What the new coach will inherit is a bunch of experienced players - Le Roux, Vermeulen, Etzebeth, Mtawarira, Strauss and Bismarck du Plessis.
Then there are the above average newer players - De Allende, Pollard, De Jager, Malherbe and Nyakane - who have already proven themselves to be better than their predecessors.
Aside from the above there are some real rookies - Kriel, Payne and Du Toit - who have a lot to prove.
It ius no use to cry about the losers that has already proved their incompetence - De Villiers (after his injury against Wales), Alberts, Matfield and Jannie du Plessis - there are many better players than those 4 selected by Meyer.
So where are we really insofar as team selection is concerned:-
15  Willie le Roux14  ??????13  Harold Vorster/Jesse Kriel12  Damian de Allende11  ??????10  Handre Pollard 9   Faf de Klerk/Cobus Reinach/Payne 8   Duane Vermeulen 7   Lappies Labuschagne 6   Jaco Kriel 5   Lood de Jager 4   Eben Etzebeth 3   Frans Malherbe 2   Bismarck du Plessis/Adriaan Strauss 1   Tendai Matawarira/Trevor Nyakane/Steven Kitshoff
I have not put in wings - but there are to my mind plenty of options - not worse than what Habana and Pietersen produced recently.  
However, there are plenty of options other than the above listed players.
Matter of fact considering the duds Meyers selected and their latest performances I am more optimistic about the future team then I was about the past team.  However, all can be destroyed by another incompetent coach and political interference.                  
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
01 Dec 2015, 00:32
#17
01 Dec 2015, 00:32#17
I guess we all have our favorite players Mike. Maybe Moz's happen to be some of the older guys. The one thing we know for sure is that there are one or two players that almost everyone agrees on...and a whole bunch that nobody agrees on. Kinda makes you realise how abstract the task of understanding who the best guy for each spot over a given time period is. As always hindsight is 20/20. BUT to my mind, this is where the coach comes in. He might not pick the best player in a position but he sure as hell has to achieve the best performance possible from the talent pool. In other words, the team he puts together should best any other combination. This is where Meyer failed horribly. Many people disagreed with him from the start. I don't think anyone on here thought we'd win the WC. Considering what we have available in terms of talent, the WC was nothing less than a fkin train smash. Not because we didn't win it, I mean there will only ever be one winner. But because of how we played. I don't care about how professional Scotland and Samoa are, they are shyte teams, sorry. We expect to, and should destroy them every time without fail. Beating them says nothing about our progress. The telling games, to me, we're Wales, Japan and the ABs game. Wales ; Meyer's team executed his game plan 100%. They denied Wales in every facet. Any coach anywhere in the world would have been proud of the players. Ample posession, territory and total tactical dominance...yet for 80 minutes HM would have us believe our boys didn't posession the skill to get the ball from 9 to 14. The Boks should have lost that game. Japan; Nothing need's to be said about this. Nothing aside from mentioning that no CC team would have lost to them. I feel the Lions CC team could have put 50 unanswered points over Japan easily. Disgraceful. Certainly not the players fault. Not in my view anyway. They did as they were told and they were, as usual by Meyer, told wrong. The ABs; The Boks at no stage seemed like winning. Even at half time. How many people after 40 minutes, though the Boks were leading, thought we'd win. Nobody. We had nothing. So as long winded as my point is, what I am saying is the following. Deciding who the best is, is extremely abstract and tough. But deciding who the best is when they have been curtailed, hampered, confused and overcoached into oblivion...well it's impossible. So, in some parallel universe Matfield and co also went to the WC. But they went with Hansen, Eddie Jones or Batman as coach and brought back the trophy. In that universe Moz made a long post saying..."I Fkn told you so!" And Matfield became a living legend. Unfortunately we share our dimension with Heyneke Fkn Meyer and we'll never ever know how the well the Boks, old and young, could have done. To me, that's the overarching point. And really, I feel sorry for the players. Even Matfield. And even if Matfield should have manned up and retired. He should at least have been given a fair shot. And he wasn't. No Bok on that team was give shot.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
01 Dec 2015, 08:07
#18
01 Dec 2015, 08:07#18
 
Oh shame!!!!!!!!

Poor Mozart's sulking again.

It's hilarious seeing him pout!!!!!

Haaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaaaaaaa!!!

The poor dear.

Yes Mozart ... it's true ... your relics were indeed thumped by Japan, Wales, Scotland and Argentina and yes they did drop to an all time low of 5th on the rankings.

I know you don't want to accept it ... and I know that that's the very reason your behaving so childishly ... after all the things you've said in support of the elderly ... and of your coach ... I too would be embarrassed if I were you.

The difference between us though is that I would have been man enough to stand up and acknowledge I was wrong. Move on. You on the other hand have chosen to pout ... to stubbornly remain in a constant state of pouting.

Let's face it Mozart ... you made a right twat of yourself and I see your determined to continue this trend. Good luck with that.

My dad's brother behaves much the same way when he doesn't get his way. His entire demeanor regresses to that of a tantrum throwing 4 year old. You should see it. It really is sad.

I guess that's why he needs 24/7 care.

Perhaps you should consider the same.


— END OF THREAD —

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