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FORUM / RUGBY /  Is rugby in danger of losing its soul?

Is rugby in danger of losing its soul?

Started by Beeno113 REPLIES325 VIEWS· 22 Jan 2015, 10:02
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BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
22 Jan 2015, 10:02
#1
22 Jan 2015, 10:02#1

Ex Tank Laning on Supersport

The advent of rugby as a professional sport has not been without its negativity, and despite the swathes of cash being floated about, a serious question must be asked whether or not the game is in danger of losing its soul?

Call me alarmist if you must, or out of touch.

But there is no doubt that the game is in danger of becoming a farce, a professional hodgepodge of passport-buying players who have little inclination nor heritage to play for but will get a ticket to the World Cup through some or other dubious means.

And it all comes down to one thing: Money.

There is a ruling body. One that concerns itself with top drawer stuff like changing its name. The International Rugby Board is no more. World Rugby is their new name.

But when it comes to ensuring a level playing field for all the rugby-playing nations, cash still rules the roost. (Bent down undr refs still abound!!!!!!!!!)

The IRB turned a blind eye all those years ago when New Zealand employed a mass recruitment drive from the Pacific Islands, so much so that the social exodus became entrenched. (Hear hear tank I have siad as much myslef although with few plaudits from the KBBS!)

Now New Zealanders scoff about those remarks, forgetting the influx of rugby playing talent in search of economic opportunities in the past. (Exactly so!!)

While almost all the current All Black team is born and bred in New Zealand, last year’s sensation Malakai Fekitoa was “imported” from Tonga at the age of 17.

The real problem today, however, is in Europe. With cash-rich clubs, fuelled by millionaires with too much desire for success and money to burn, the Southern Hemisphere has been a shopping centre for European clubs for a while now.(I call them paraites and the English are as much to blame as anybody dispite Becs protesting and trying to blame our players for this!!)

However, when rugby nations start employing these tactics, World Rugby should step in.

Just this week we’ve seen Gareth Anscombe, who won an IRB Junior World Championship with New Zealand, selected for Wales. Kiwi flanker Hugh Blake has been selected for Scotland.

In both cases, both players have been in the country less than six months, with Blake in Scotland a little more than a week. Rugby ancestry is their key, but it still leaves a bitter taste in the mouth.

About three years ago we reported about the case of CJ Stander, Josh Strauss, Quinn Roux, WP Nel and Danie Poolman.

All of these players were offered lucrative contracts in either the UK or Ireland, with promises of making the national squad.

Most of them will qualify just before the World Cup in September, and are likely to be called up into their respective national squads.

And with the promises came other incentives. The Irish rugby union, for instance, offers all tax to be exempt if a player completes his career in Ireland.

I don’t blame some of the players. The chance to earn Euros or Pounds, play your game and make it to the World Cup. Then, when you leave, you are given your earnings tax-free. How could anyone say no? (Tank its nice to read some sound common sense for a change. here we have some hopless idealists ho have no clue about reality. the late great Biltoing Bek got this hopelessly wrong!!)

And that isn’t mentioning the likes of Bernard le Roux, Rory Kockott, Scott Spedding, Antonie Claassen etc who are doing the same in France.

The real question is just how far will these nations go for rugby success, and in the process when will World Rugby actually step in to protect the sanctity of the game? (No chance of that happening Tank too many NH parasites on the board?)

Already we have noises from Toulon about taking World Rugby to court to ensure players aren’t released for international duty.

June and November tours are simply continually pushed through, flogging an already dead horse just to make a quick buck. Yet the Northern Hemisphere clubs oppose a global season, as it wouldn’t suit them.

And as such World Rugby is a lame duck, unable to move the game forward, unable to stop those who exploit kinks in the system.

Ask yourself, while it may be good for players to earn a living, would you truly want a world game where the Home nations look more like a Barbarians squad than the best a country can offer? (Of course not Tank but what can these NH types do if they cant compete with the SH giants?)

If financial incentive is all you need, what value has test rugby still got on it, when a country can handpick players to bolster positions from anywhere in the world, and then give them a test cap as incentive? (Yes indeed and we can trace it all back to NZ first exploiting PI talent. They developed the principle. Oh these kbbs have so much to answer for!!!!! )

Surely test rugby is still a test between nations? One country produces its best and pits its skills against another who does the same.(One would hopeso - you could add under the auspices of a fair competent ref.)

In football the club system is bigger than the country, but still Fifa, for all its faults, manages to mostly stop a wholesale exodus and put on a grand showpiece event where nations do battle.

Rugby cannot allow itself to be held ransom by those with selfish interests at heart. It cannot become the plaything for the Home Unions to exploit the game as they see fit.(Expel Nz with a severe warning to stop corrupting the game. Give them a year off to contemplate the error of their ways and to watch how the noble boks do it. Honestly and hard. Waht an excellent rle model for the kiwis and even some bent Ozzies! Lets get to the root of the problem I say!))

There is a real danger, seeing as their plans have worked perfectly up to now, that after the World Cup the Home Unions will scout out more foreigners under the guise of qualifying to play, make huge offers and hope for a more cosmopolitan line-up at the next World Cup.

All the while the base of the game is being eroded. All the while the system of nationhood is being torn apart.

So I ask you again, is rugby in danger of losing its soul?

Tank the bigger picture is rugby is not the only entity loosing its soul. 

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
22 Jan 2015, 12:07
#2
22 Jan 2015, 12:07#2

Rugby needs to clamp down on the eligibility of playing for a country of non birth.

 

 

 

 

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
22 Jan 2015, 12:35
#3
22 Jan 2015, 12:35#3
" In football the club system is bigger than the country, but still Fifa, for all its faults, manages to mostly stop a wholesale exodus and put on a grand showpiece event where nations do battle."

There is a very good reason for this. Football do not have national contracts. Many want to see massive national contracts to retain players. I have always been against national contracts because they do not serve any purpose. We want players to be patriotic and play for their national sides purely for the honour of representing your country but at the same time because it is his job and he has to perform to get keep getting his pay cheque.


In football it is still about the honour of representing your country. The salary is a side issue. German players, like Mesut Ozil and some others, donated his World Cup earnings to some charity in Brazil, IIRC. He can do that because his earnings at the World Cup was probably around the same as what he earns at Arsenal in around two weeks. The entire Algerian team donated their Word Cup money as well.

When the international windows starts the club players all fall in at their national sides and they all jockey for places in the national sides to represent their countries. They know that they have to produce the goods to catch the eyes of the national selectors to be in with a chance to represent their countries. They do not have the comfort of knowing that their national contracts are their to help make the selection for the national side.

They should dump all the national contracts and pay them match fees for international games.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
22 Jan 2015, 12:42
#4
22 Jan 2015, 12:42#4
 Windpomp if they did that in Sa our players would leave in even greater droves.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
22 Jan 2015, 12:57
#5
22 Jan 2015, 12:57#5
 Beeno, they are leaving in any case because, like you and I have argued many times over, SA Rugby just does not have the kind of money that is waved around elsewhere.


The African countries keep on producing talent that earns salaries in Europe that they can never earn in their own countries but when the time comes for them to represent their countries their first worry is not their pay cheque or their national contract. The first worry is always "Will I be good enough and will I be selected for my national side". Ask anyone from Cote d'ivor if he sees Didier Drogba as a traitor or a mercenary because he plays for Chelsea. No ways, mate, he is one of their players and one of their favourites. Ask any Cameroonian if they think Alex Song is a traitor or a mercenary because he plays for West Ham. No ways. He is one of their favourite national players.
PO
polyboyClub Pro601 posts
22 Jan 2015, 13:08
#6
22 Jan 2015, 13:08#6
Beeno there is a double standard on the part of the article and yourself when no mention is made of "Beast" as a player SA "helped" get citizenship so he could play for the Boks.  Its one thing to accuse NZ (I would love to see proof of NZ's mythical recruitment drive) but another thing to try and "forget" that SA does what they accuse NZ of. 
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
22 Jan 2015, 13:11
#7
22 Jan 2015, 13:11#7
Not to mention Mujati as well  
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
22 Jan 2015, 13:14
#8
22 Jan 2015, 13:14#8
 Poly please oak! You cant compare a mouse to an elephant!! Zim also dont really play rugby. PI nations do.Getting a glimmer? Oh what a poor precedent was set. OZ of course have followed suit as I warned they would. Now we have the NH doing it - and the kiwis were the pioneers of this rotten development!  One of many such pioneering efforts!
One could say the kbbs are pioneers in misdirected pioneering efforts!



BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
22 Jan 2015, 14:53
#9
22 Jan 2015, 14:53#9
I am so bored with this discussion! We are in the professional era, people go where the money is. You know, like all of us here with our respective jobs. If someone offers anyone here the same job they currently have, but for much better pay, what would anyone of us do? You guessed it, take the money! Now from a specifically South African point of view, you also have quotas to deal with, an you got it, people leaving in droves. 
It is the professional era, it may not be pretty, but that is just the way it is. Would these ex-pats rather play for the Boks? I think basically all of them would. Buuuut, there is probably more competition against stronger players for a Bok spot than at the likes of France or Scotland, so playing in other countries will often offer an easier route to the national team. 
The only solution is a cap on the number of foreign players allowed to play for any club, because if it is left to the players, they'll follow the money, and why not? 
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
22 Jan 2015, 15:19
#10
22 Jan 2015, 15:19#10
Bluebok, the strange thing is that there is a cap on those numbers in England and in France. They just manage it properly. If it was a case of young players in France and England being "robbed" of playing opportunities, then why do we not see those players flocking off to play in the SH?

In France they have the JIFFS rules (Joueurs Issus des Filières de Formation) or loosely translated Upcoming Players Path. For 2014/15 55% of a clubs players have to be JIFFs, i.e. players who have before the age of 21 spent either three years at a club's youtha academy or five five seasons licensed to play in France. From 2015/16 clubs will be fined if their matchday squad does not include at least 12 JIFFs and from 2016/17 they have to have at least 14 JIFFs in their matchday squad.

The reason why I say that they manage it better is that in the last summer (mid 2014) many clubs have signed youngsters who fall outside of the salary caps so that they would be able to sign more international players after the 2015 RWC. I read an article about it last year and that is exactly what is happening now. http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/france-countries/top-14-clubs-cut-foreign-imports-37670 The French clubs have kept their "quotas" in check and they are now able to recruit international players again for after the RWC. That is why Toulon have persuaded Bakkies Botha to extend his contract by a few months just to get them past the RWC period. They did that after Bakkies retired from international rugby, which meant that he would be available during the RWC. Problem was that his contract runs out at the end of this season and he has already indicated that he would not renew it. He has, however, agreed to stay on until after the RWC.

I have given the number of new signings of foreign players, for 2014/15, in an earlier post as well. These were the number of signings per club:

Number of overseas signings per club 2014-15

Grenoble: 6. Montpellier: 5. La Rochelle: 4. Toulon, Oyonnax, Lyon & Clermont: 3. Brive, Toulouse & Racing Metro: 2. Stade Francais: 1. Bayonne, Castres & Bordeaux-Begles: 0.


Where are they from?

New Zealand: 11. South Africa: 8. Australia: 6. Wales: 2. Fiji: 2. England: 2. Ireland: 1. Italy: 1. Fiji: 1.


What position?

Props: 5. Hookers: 2. Second rows: 6. Back rows: 4. Scrum-halves: 1. Fly-halves: 3. Wingers: 5. Centres: 4. Full-backs: 4.






BE
becsPro4,378 posts
22 Jan 2015, 15:37
#11
22 Jan 2015, 15:37#11
 Rugby lost its soul the moment it went Pro. Simple as that. 
And I am afraid that no-one should be able to roll up and play for another country on a whim, as is being done in this 6 Nations. It is an insult to the born and bred players who have slogged their guts out for years and who are good enough themselves to play for their national side. That simply disgusts me. No player should be able to change nationality, full stop. I think we just need to get that rule in place a while and see where that takes us ! 
You are either born, or go through a School system, in a country to be a valid option to play, or you don't play at all. 
Playing sport for a national side, the side representing a country, is not like any other " job ". It is something more than that. So don't give me any claptrap about restraint of trade, blah blah blah. 
And yes, France is trying to wreck European Rugby and Bath and Saracens are under investigation for breaching the salary cap in this country. 
The attitude of the majority of the players, owners and the so-called fans these days really leaves much to be desired. 
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
22 Jan 2015, 15:57
#12
22 Jan 2015, 15:57#12
 @Mr. Been,

last time you brought this same issue (that NZ and the AB "employed a mass recruitment drive from the Pacific Islands") I proved you were wrong.

In the last 10 years when around 100 new players became AB, only 4 of them were born and bred outside NZ. As the article correctly says and you forgot to mark:
"almost all the current All Black team is born and bred in New Zealand".

The springboks have at least 3 players born and bred outside in the last 10 years: Tonderai Chavanga, Mujati and Mtawarira and they could be more.

So, where the f*ck is the difference?
PO
polyboyClub Pro601 posts
22 Jan 2015, 16:09
#13
22 Jan 2015, 16:09#13

Beeno, your verbal 2 step is unconvincing.  Zimbabwe if I recall have a national rugby team so they really DO play rugby.  Trying to attach degrees to whether its one or 1000 players is like saying " a single murder is not as bad as 5 murders" so again you tripped up there.  The thing is that if there was ever a convincing media reported poaching of a player,  Mtawarira is it.  I don't see the point debating the PI issue with someone who relies on heresay and internet rumour, as I have said in the past I lived in the era that PI's immigrated (emigrated?) to NZ, my grandfather was one of thousands who came seeking work and ended up playing rugby, as did succeeding generations. Stats have also been printed in the media detailing the birth place of the AB's.  Should read it it would make enlightening reading.

BE
becsPro4,378 posts
23 Jan 2015, 12:31
#14
23 Jan 2015, 12:31#14
 There is an opinion piece in today's Daily Mail about how disgraceful it is for certain people to just roll up and play for another country. 
And how former Scotland players are appalled by this selection and how they thought the days of the " Kilted Kiwis " were behind them. 

Maybe some of you should take a read of that article ? 
— END OF THREAD —

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