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FORUM / RUGBY /  It's blindingly obvious....we will never make it with Coetzee

It's blindingly obvious....we will never make it with Coetzee

Started by Mozart59 REPLIES1,153 VIEWS· 29 Jun 2016, 15:39
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
29 Jun 2016, 15:39
#1
29 Jun 2016, 15:39#1
I believe in joint culpability....players and coaches. Nor do I believe we have a magic solution with different selections.....the difference between selecting Strauss or Marx can explain maybe 2% of our 25% performance gap. Selection is part of the problem, tactics and preparation play a much bigger role.

And having a competitive coach is huge. Eddie out thought Checkmate at every level....his team knew what they had to do. Our players against Ireland were making it up as they went along. Thankfully Whiteley and Combrink had some answers.

I have not been a critic of our coaches since the equally clueless Destroyli....PdV was sidelined by the players. But we are about to waste 4 years.

It's not Coetzee's selections that clinched the argument for me....but the clueless preparation of the team. We need a competitor.....a leader of men....somebody with fire in his belly. That person is not Coetzee.
MO
MonsterBokClub Pro442 posts
29 Jun 2016, 16:13
#2
29 Jun 2016, 16:13#2
 No argument from me, agreed.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
29 Jun 2016, 16:23
#3
29 Jun 2016, 16:23#3

Agreed, Coetzee never had it as a coach - we saw that with the Stormers. He advocates the expansive game but we know he is not comfortable with that style......its all talk to please the masses.


His style is a conservative one, evidenced by his discomfort in playing Jantjies at 10 and how Jantjies never prospered under him at the Stormers.....he was far more comfortable selecting Lambie to start and jumped at the opportunity of bringing Morne back on board.


I was mostly impressed with the squad he selected along with the A squad selected.....it was a step in the right direction.


However, unfortunately despite the squad, we saw conservative selections like Mvovo, JP, Beast, Strauss and Louw......not to mention playing Kolisi out of position and an out of form Vermeulen at 8.


These selections sold us short, particularly in the forwards where at best we achieved parity.


Not selecting our most physical hooker and not playing a true bruiser at blindside, accounted for parity.


As for Coetzee the coach, I don't see a game plan, I see a bunch of individuals doing their own thing.....there is no pattern or structure......Coetzee does not inspire, as you say he does not possess the competitive edge.....there is no rugby wisdom or insight when he speaks and we see that in the way the side is playing.


Selecting Strauss as his captain for the rest of the year is a big mistake when he is the 3rd best hooker in the country.


These facts coupled with having to start at least 5 players of colour means the man is on a hiding to nothing 

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,267 posts
29 Jun 2016, 16:54
#4
29 Jun 2016, 16:54#4
There may have been some hope with a proper backline coach- but unfortunately Stick what his name is useless- and only a quota strategic transformation selection
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
29 Jun 2016, 17:52
#5
29 Jun 2016, 17:52#5
 Agreed - Coetzee has no real game plan and his total ignorance about backline play was evident when he coached the Stormers and there was no change since then.   There was NO game plan in evidence in the recent three tests against Ireland.    In an opinion poll about the coach appointment Coetzee had 21% support.  Some people was prepared to give him a "honeymoon" chance.   After the last three tests I doubt it whether he still have a 10% support base and a disastrous RC - which with a deficient game plan is a certainty - he is bound to be a coach with no public support.    
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
29 Jun 2016, 20:53
#6
29 Jun 2016, 20:53#6
 Coetzee is a puppet. I think that's why Rassie left. He was supposed to be a major part of the support team...untill he saw the fine print. I'm no Coetzee fan, never was, but he was a fool to take the job. He will lose the little bit of credibility he has left. IMO he was similarly handicapped at the Stormers, so he knew very well how it was going to be as Bok Boss. Appointing Strauss as skipper was his first error. Following through on orders from "the top" regarding sellections after the Newlands debacle was the final nail. Unless he grow a pair pronto, he won't last longer than Kolisi. Poor sod.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
29 Jun 2016, 21:04
#7
29 Jun 2016, 21:04#7
Dr Mozzzzzzz I recall telling you this many years ago when Coetzee had flopped as the Bok backline coach. I am delighted you have finally realised all this!It fills me with a new determination to persevere with the kbbs and some others!

JW wonders what this is all about!
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
29 Jun 2016, 21:21
#8
29 Jun 2016, 21:21#8
It's annoying though because when you listen to his interviews after games most of what he says is correct.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
29 Jun 2016, 22:20
#9
29 Jun 2016, 22:20#9
 Even if that's true Plum....being able to figure what happened isn't the job....making it happen is.
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
30 Jun 2016, 00:26
#10
30 Jun 2016, 00:26#10
Well I hope that Mr Stick is taking copious notes cos he's obviously being groomed to one day succeed Coetzee & become our very first truly black coach & by then Fe keleki Mbababa will undoubtedly be one of the team selectors . Sounds mal, but rugby SA style & its a mad, mad world .

I heard onna radio today that the SABC has ordered good news stories only about the beloved Prez ,

http://qz.com/718719/south-africas-public-broadcaster-will-only-allow-news-that-makes-the-president-look-good/




MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
30 Jun 2016, 00:29
#11
30 Jun 2016, 00:29#11
 Have they found such a story yet?
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
30 Jun 2016, 04:24
#12
30 Jun 2016, 04:24#12
 Holymolli....the board is almost unanimous ...Dave and Moz on the same side....what's going on???....I might have to wave Coetzee's flag all by myself....it's gonna be a tough 4 years.
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
30 Jun 2016, 08:13
#13
30 Jun 2016, 08:13#13
All I need no w is for CleanC to agree with Mike and then I'll know I've been in a car accident, and I am lying in a coma in some hospital having fantastic dreams!!!
MO
MonsterBokClub Pro442 posts
30 Jun 2016, 10:23
#14
30 Jun 2016, 10:23#14
Yes,All this agreeing is boring.  
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
30 Jun 2016, 10:31
#15
30 Jun 2016, 10:31#15
 Come now, Comrade ... what's the matter with you ... ???
Just kidding, Bluebok ... not that I would like to see you in a coma ... EVER!! 
Mozart hit the nail right on the head ... and even though selections are a problem, our coach could have disguised them with proper preparation ... a workable game plan ... inspiring his 2nd rate team to play beyond themselves ... for awhile any way ... but that seems beyond his capability ... 
It's like he doesn't care about any of it.
He inspires no one ... not his team ... and we the fan continue with a sense of hopelessness about our future because of him. 
Three coaches since Jake ... and every one of them a fcukup!! Two are definite quota picks and the other a blind fool who would not see.  
There is no way that the New Zealand rugby public would have taken this without some kind of riot ... yet we continue as though it's a bright sunny day and all's good with the world. 
Perhaps it's because we don't really care as much about the sport as we say we do. 
By filling stadiums and buying Bok merchandise we end up showing our support of this absurdity. 
I wonder what it'll take to get us all to say "enough is enough ... ??"

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
30 Jun 2016, 10:36
#16
30 Jun 2016, 10:36#16
Its easy to agree on the obvious.....but then again Moz tends to always come up with the contrary view......but this time we are agreed.....Coetzee is NOT a test standard coach.....I would not even want him coaching my provincial side. Nice enough guy but a rugby genius he is not 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
30 Jun 2016, 13:19
#17
30 Jun 2016, 13:19#17
Mozart initially defended the appointment of Coetzee when doubts were expressed - but he is now seeing what was clear in the past already - hence his about-turn in the relevant regard.     
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
30 Jun 2016, 14:45
#18
30 Jun 2016, 14:45#18
 Whats the chances of someone like Robbie Deans ever coaching your mob ? Not a good fit for the Aussies but they are not as respectful of coaches as SA and NZ players .
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
30 Jun 2016, 15:02
#19
30 Jun 2016, 15:02#19
 No chance at all - the problem is that no real coach will put up with the enforced quota system and have to cut out the better-performing players so as to cater for racial-based  selections.  It will ruin the coach's image as well - so nobody really wants the job.  Coetzee was part of the quota rubbish is well.   In an opinion poll only 21% SA fans supported his appointment - while a further 27% said he should get a chance to see whether he really will make the grade.   So far it is clear that he would not make the grade - hence the sudden rebellion on this site against him.    
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
30 Jun 2016, 16:31
#20
30 Jun 2016, 16:31#20
Considering the political alternatives Coetzee had the best credentials of those with a chance. This posting isn't so much a consideration of what is possible....but what should be possible.  
We should be able to field a coach who is able to take on Eddie Jones tactically....our rugby deserves this.
So far Coetzee has fielded poorly prepared, demotivated teams....he has been considerably worse than I thought. But very politically correct. He is the Bok rugby equivalent of Roy Hodgson and his results will be no better. 
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
30 Jun 2016, 18:34
#21
30 Jun 2016, 18:34#21
 He was appointed 4 weeks before the 1st test, with halve a coaching team....AND he has to field a Q team. The fool should have stayed in Japan...he could have gotten the Jap gig and would have more to work with in th e RWC 2019 Japan squad.
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
01 Jul 2016, 04:58
#22
01 Jul 2016, 04:58#22
 You cannot create a work of art with blunt instruments and without seeking to make excuses for Coetzee there is little doubt that the players he works with are of poor quality. Sure you can blame Transformation, his selection of players, Government interference, Zuma and his 99 wives whatever, fact of the matter is that SAFFA rugby is in deep shyte. The evidence of this is found by looking at our results in S18 and at junior rugby...we are vrot! Sure there's merit in saying he should be picking this or that player and that Transformation is like a yoke tightly bound around the squad's nuts, the fact is, with or without those handicaps not a single one of our best would make the All Black squad. Ackerman, I suggest would have fared slightly better with a half decent gameplan but let's not fool ourselves into believing he was going to do a great deal better and win us the Rugby Championships or the RWC. The day our franchises lift there level consistently enough to challenge the best Kiwi and Ozzie sides is the day we can justifiably demand higher expectations from our national coach.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
01 Jul 2016, 06:00
#23
01 Jul 2016, 06:00#23
Certainly we are not very competitive through the levels. But we beat NZ in 2014 and found a way to take them to the death at the RWC. Now it seems the prospect of a Bok win doesn't even exist.
I'm not disagreeing with that view. It has always been my contention that we never had this huge pool of talent.....just a handful of world class players, many of whom are now out of the picture. Even though they were declining, their replacements are ordinary.

Certainly a victory over NZ seems a high hurdle. But how about a victory over Ireland. Even this diminished group of players were surely capable of winning 3 out of 3 against this weak Irish team. Coetzee's failure to start with a  discernible plan and still to have no plan by test 3 has to be concerning Denny.

I honestly believe coaches show their stuff quickly....Eddie completely changed the Pom team. So these early disappointments are valid concerns. Yes it's a horrible job. Yes our new talent is disappointing. Yes the quota thing is a nasty complication. But we could have been way better against Ireland, even with current talent. Hell compare the line speed of the Pom backline on defence.....our chaps were dawdling up there. That's coaching....just one example.
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
01 Jul 2016, 07:11
#24
01 Jul 2016, 07:11#24
 If what you're saying about Coetzee proves to be correct then he's going to run out of excuses.....he will be in for a nightmare of a ride, Bok fans do not take prisoners. I agree though that he's not selected the best squad and should he hang onto the likes of Mvovo and Kolisi then he can kiss my ass goodbye. Still, the long term fix to the ills of SAFFA rugby is not even in it's infancy. At the end of the day, he's taken on the role, the coach has to be able to coach and the players need to be able to play....a gameplan is a coaches footprint.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
01 Jul 2016, 08:13
#25
01 Jul 2016, 08:13#25
 Eddie Jones transformed the Bok backline. Hence it was obvious to any thinking person that Alistair had flopped badly as the Bok backline coach. Jake knew he was no good so appointed Eddie.I then had the task of convincing many that Alistair was a flop and didn't deserve to get a WP appointment.  If only more folk would avoid the EGG landing by paying close attention to Beeno - especially ou JW who so often flounders on topics - its so unnecessary.
Dense denise is excelling - "At the end of the day, he's taken on the role, the coach has to be able to coach and the players need to be able to play".  Awesome stuff!  Dense thinks this is a deep insight! hahahahahahahaha
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
01 Jul 2016, 09:59
#26
01 Jul 2016, 09:59#26
 " But very politically correct. He is the Bok rugby equivalent of Roy Hodgson and his results will be no better. "
Woy Coetzee?
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
01 Jul 2016, 10:07
#27
01 Jul 2016, 10:07#27
 Haaaaaaaahahahahahahaaa!!
Beandip the pussy whipped ... telling us to listen to his deep thoughts. 
That's hilarious!!!
The docile little mouse frightened of the missus ... living his fantasy out on this board. 


MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
01 Jul 2016, 11:51
#28
01 Jul 2016, 11:51#28
 Hasbeeno, exactly how did Eddie transform the Bok backline?You haven't had a decent back line since Danie Gerber was around and that's 20 plus years ago!Face facts; your back line play is crap and will be in the foreseeable future. You have no talent in that area so it's back to the good old bash, bash of the forwards.How depressing....
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Jul 2016, 13:12
#29
01 Jul 2016, 13:12#29
 

With the real show by Coetzee as coach of the Springboks in the recent irish test, we have to look at the similarities between Meyer and Coetzee:=

Similarities

Both Meyer and Coetzee have a major commonality  - both had o game plan and both consider scoring of tries is not to be tried and that penalty conversions only remains a consideration.

Both has no idea about usage of the backline – with forwards often meddling  by being first receivers of balls.

Both has serious selection deficiencies – Meyer had no interest in performance of players and was solely interested in reputation players without regard to performance.   Coetzee has a similar  problem – he has a mixture of experience and racist-based quotas in his selection methodology.   In both cases performance is not really an issue of importance.  

Differences

Whereas Meyer disliked the Lions players because they would require a more comprehensive game plan – Coetzee did select Lions players  for the Springbok squad.   He used them sparingly though – mostly from the bench.      

 Both should never have been Springbok coaches.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Jul 2016, 13:12
#30
01 Jul 2016, 13:12#30
 

With the real show by Coetzee as coach of the Springboks in the recent irish test, we have to look at the similarities between Meyer and Coetzee:=

Similarities

Both Meyer and Coetzee have a major commonality  - both had o game plan and both consider scoring of tries is not to be tried and that penalty conversions only remains a consideration.

Both has no idea about usage of the backline – with forwards often meddling  by being first receivers of balls.

Both has serious selection deficiencies – Meyer had no interest in performance of players and was solely interested in reputation players without regard to performance.   Coetzee has a similar  problem – he has a mixture of experience and racist-based quotas in his selection methodology.   In both cases performance is not really an issue of importance.  

Differences

Whereas Meyer disliked the Lions players because they would require a more comprehensive game plan – Coetzee did select Lions players  for the Springbok squad.   He used them sparingly though – mostly from the bench.      

 Both should never have been Springbok coaches.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
01 Jul 2016, 15:15
#31
01 Jul 2016, 15:15#31
 Fact vs Fiction.
In HM's first year 16 tries were scored by the backline......7 by the forwards.


CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
01 Jul 2016, 15:24
#32
01 Jul 2016, 15:24#32
 BS, Moz. Morne Steyn was the flyhalf and we all know that he could never "get his backline going"...........
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
01 Jul 2016, 18:38
#33
01 Jul 2016, 18:38#33
 Those passes weren't Morne...somebody else surely. And the incompetent bug.ger even had the temerity to score a try against the Poms in HMs first test.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
01 Jul 2016, 19:59
#34
01 Jul 2016, 19:59#34
 Somebody else needed a go at 10, discarding Mornè completely is all on Meyer.
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
02 Jul 2016, 01:18
#35
02 Jul 2016, 01:18#35
 Some would have it that Jantjies was the man, he would fix it all, he'd ignite the backline, our wingers would get ball, don't need no coach, just pick da man and get rid of Morne, tries would flow like koeksisters off Fatima's conveyer belt........umm perhaps I'm missin somethin...
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
02 Jul 2016, 10:58
#36
02 Jul 2016, 10:58#36
 Am I missing something! Bwahahahahaha how about your marbles  dense- even Eddie wouldn't have made a difference etc. Hilarious!
Dense certainly does have co mic value!
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
02 Jul 2016, 11:07
#37
02 Jul 2016, 11:07#37
 Coetzee is not a rugby genius, but he is an excellent man manager and builder of structure. He continued building the Stormers team Rassie started. That team came close to winning the SR trophy a few times, but there was just something missing in the backline.  Leave Alistair and give him a proper backline assistant.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Jul 2016, 23:16
#38
04 Jul 2016, 23:16#38
If you look at the awesome level the ABs have already hit against Wales, we need more than a good middle manager.....which is what Coetzee is. We need a passionate, tough minded tactician that demands the very best from his players....and puts the focus on excellence.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
05 Jul 2016, 01:56
#39
05 Jul 2016, 01:56#39
 Lets get back to Meyer's team who in his first year scored 23 tries - they did it in 12 tests - ie less than 2 tries per match.   16 tries by the backline in 12 tests is really not good enough.   Morne was so bad in that year that he got dropped after buggering up repeatedly.   In the 7 tests Morne was at flyhalf the Sprinboks scored 10 tries - in the other 5 they scored 13 tries.   And dofdooos said that the tries were scored despite Morne being in the backline - what a bloody fool  that idiot is.  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Jul 2016, 05:33
#40
05 Jul 2016, 05:33#40
 Well riddle me this Tokkie. In 2013 with Morne at the helm in each test we scored 45 tries in 12 tests or 3.75 tries per test. In 2015 with Morne absent we scored 34 in 11 tests at 3.1 per test......in spite of the huge try haul against the USA.
Obviousl y contrary to all your BS Morne raised the Bok try scoring rate.
Crow Tok....more crow.
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