Its all coming out now

CC, its not how I see it. It's not what I believe. The question I am asking is that if this is the way the Jews view Satan, and they wrote the Old Testament, even though to them it is not the old testament because they don't believe their is a "new testament, then how is it possible to disagree with them? The only way to get past it is to say, they are all wrong and are all going to hell. Though, I find it extremely difficult to call them godless and confused(as you stated) because they seem to know exactly what they believe and follow their religion very closely. They have have believed the same way since before the new testament was even written. Do you see what I am saying? Christians came after, added new parts to the Bible, changed some fundamental principals and now claim the Jews are wrong. I can't understand it. This is what I am trying to figure out. Like how to the two sides reconcile these massive differences. After all, both can't be true.

 Mr Plum that version of the bible everyone uses is pretty much the one that the Pagan Roman Emperor Constantine ordered the Nicean Council to formalize so that it could be used to control all the lumpen masses .It left out pretty much anything that would show women in a good light or position of strength within the gospels ,even turned some into who.res .And even poor old Judas gets shafted with his gospel getting binned ,it showed him in a more sympathetic light as being informed by Jesus that he must go ahead and betray him despite not wanting to .In short a man made artifact concocted to control the citizenry .

 Hey Wardad. Good weekend?

I dated a Jewish girl some time back and she explained a lot of this stuff to me. Honestly i was pretty ignorant to it all. Nevertheless i was amazed and since then i've done some reading and i can't understand how a serious division like that has been glossed over. I try to ask Christians but i can't get straight answers. I dunno. I guess it's a case of picking a team and sticking to it regardless. It's just sad because it's like banging one's head against a brick wall. People jump to the conclusion that one is trying to challenge their faith, when actually you're trying to understand more about why they believe the way they do.

By the way, i've gathered you're pretty knowledgeable on firearms. I've applied for a license for a handgun as i live on a plot near a pretty dodge area. Do you have any suggestions on what to get? Most people are saying the new Glock is the way to go?

 
I see. In a nutshell you reject Christ as they do. He is not key to your beliefs. He means nothing to you. Just another dude in a robe

The warped issues you have with the Devil and Hell is not really what's causing this mess. You are divided between the Old and New testament. The one you accept, with some very strange teachings and the other you reject as man made gobbledygook.

Have you read the New Testament? Have you called upon God to guide you as you do?

The Old Testament speaks of the coming Messiah constantly ... yet the very person we as Christians accepted as the Son Of God was rejected by the Jews. They are still waiting for their so called Messiah.

The Christian faith is completely based on the arrival of the Messiah. Without Him there would be no Christian religion today.

We have accepted Him as the Christ ... the Son of God ... the promised Messiah ... as spoken of countless times in the Old Testament ... and moved on from there. 

That's what separates us from the Jew.

There were over 600 laws past on to Moses, and to live by them is impossible. If you believe in the law of Moses as your guide line then you will be judged by it. That much has clearly been stated in the book of Romans.

I am not going to try convince you that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah. You have already made your mind up about that.

Let me go back a tad though and show you how the gentiles were always in God's plans.

Abraham was approached by God and told that he would be made the father of many nations if he were to go into a covenant with Him. He agreed and so it all began.

Thing is though, Abraham was uncircumcised when he accepted this. He only received the mark of God in his flesh a little later (after the agreement had already been made) ... by being circumcised.

That established him as not only the Father of the Jew but of all nations ... the uncircumcised gentiles included.  

That's us. I take it your not Jewish, right?

Let me fast forward a bit to the days of John The Baptist.

He baptized the Christ and was witness to Gods voice claiming Him as His son. Much like Moses hearing God's voice through the burning bush. He also witnessed the Holy Spirit descend upon him from on high. All of this as per the prophesy.

Moving on to Saul of Tarsus aka Paul. Just like Moses, he too was divinely inspired to take on a task for God and was responsible for most of the books in the New Testament.

The New Testament wasn't just randomly thrown together as your trying to make out.

The New Testament has indeed changed certain things but under no circumstances does it renounce the Old. It in fact confirms it. The coming of Christ, His death and resurrection, and what He achieved for us through all of this.

Set aside your prejudice and open your heart up to the possibility of a Saviour ... who has already made it possible for you to enter directly into the throne room of the greatest living being ... ever ... to be reconciled to Him ... to have every last sin (no matter what) cast away ... to no longer qualify for the second death ...

I have a passage for you, Plum. Romans 12 1-2.

Hope I've helped a little.



 

"Well Plum ... after reading your lengthy contribution ... and based on how convinced you are, that what you've posted is all true, I seriously doubt I'd stand a chance of redirecting your thought to any alternatives.

It seems well and truly rooted within you. In fact I would go as far as to say that the seed you've planted has already produced several crops and to uproot that forest would be near on impossible."

Now that is a bit rich coming from one of the intolerant bible-bashing christians on this forum.

I bet the irony flies straight over Klown's indoctrinated and god-fearing forehead.

Pretty much everything that Klown or Baboon-ou has said on all of these threads regarding religion is further evidence that faith is for those people who don't want to know the truth.

Hey CC

I'm not prejudice at all, there is nothing to set aside CC. People who are prejudice don;t try to understand, they have already made up their minds. I have not...hence my questions. I don't necessarily believe that one is right and the other is wrong. And it is not me who believes this stuff about heaven and hell that is different from what you believe. It is the Jewish faith. Like i said, go and do some research and you'll see, i have not made it up, and i don't believe it. What i am asking is how Christaisns and Jews are able to each believe that they are right in a game where there can only be one winner...with the prize being so hefty. Like does it not make more sense to meet somewhere in the middle? After all, you guys are on the same team right?

The Jews didn't accept Jesus because he didn't fulfill the prophecy that their messiah was supposed to. Whatever the prophecy was, i take it it was around before Jesus came along? And if this prophecy was in their Holy Book, prior to Jesus, and it sets out details about attributes and actions of said messiah, and then he comes along and doesn't do what the prophecy says...can we blame them for not accepting him? Should we not applaud them for sticking to what the book says? I guess the book does say that one is supposed to obey it?

Do you see how this confuses me?

Those are not my "warped" ideas. They are ideas that have been around since before the new Testament.

 Plum get an old browning 9mm or a smith and wesson 38 .The browning has been around since post WW1 in one form or another and is still in military use ,its ultra reliable and will knock down most folks at 25m or so .The 38 is another old and ultra reliable weapon like all revolvers theres fark all to go wrong .The US army still uses the Colt 1911 very similar to the Browning ,all cheaper than all the fancy shizz ,after a coupla hundred years theres only so much you can do with a pistol.Better still come to Oz or NZ then you wont need one bromost handguns that do kill people usually its the owner or loved ones.

The Browning sounds good Wardad. I'll be heading to the range in a few weeks and hope I can test out a few there. Just, you know how it goes. Each guy is gonna tell me the gun he owns in the best. But i will check out the Browning for sure. Haha na mate, i love SA. One does need to have your wits about you sometimes though. Right now, I'm on my stoep(porch), 30 degrees and I've had shorts all day while working. I sometimes wonder if my clients could see my work environment if they'd still take me seriously. I deal with architects, consultants, construction companies etc...and do most of this in flip flops. I can't see myself having this life anywhere else. Plus, aside from Beenis crowd I love my countrymen. From indians and whites to coloureds and blacks, mostly people are great here...as long as one leaves arrogance at the door. It's mainly the older crowd that are all doom and gloom. The younger guys see a new world and most of us excited for it. Soon, we'll have guys my age taking over the political scene too. Hehe the days of the dinosaur are almost over...then we can truly move on.

 Oh and if your a Futurama fan then you cant go past Nibblers gun from "Consolidated Head Melter " And all guns come with a simple point a nd kill interface .

 CC some good posts ...., no bible bashing pure reply's to Plum.As Christians I believe that we should not fall into the trap trying to convert people, that is Gods job. Our task is to bear witness, plant a seed of question with love and respect by demonstrating how we live our lives. This is the greatest challenge for Christians as we are all human and fall short of the mark. 
  To believe in God and follow Jesus is not something that can be reasoned and debated to a conclusion. It is a transformation of acceptance within your heart that brings peace (or it was for me).I do not condemn those who have chosen another belief system but I do reserve the right to pray for them in love. 

 
Nicely put, BokBF.

So true ... it's not an easy walk. By no means do we claim to be perfect. We have however made a choice and will try as best we can to stay the course.

There will always be those who mock from afar ... criticize ... ever watchful ... waiting for the inevitable slip so they can mouth off loudly and point their grubby fingers.

Seems to make them happy.

I've made a decision and am happy with it. It gives me peace.

Ever wake up in the morning to find an unexplained excitement all over you?

Awesome way to attack the day.





   

 
Plum ... you are obviously not happy with what you believe in ... it leaves you feeling hollow and empty ... and rightly so ... it has no substance. It's a bare bone.

That is why your looking elsewhere.

And yes ... you do believe in something. It's not Christianity though. Heaven only knows what it is.

I told you that you'd struggle to rid yourself of what's already planted.

You keep hanging onto that twisted translation ... trying to blend it with something else. It seems that that something else is Christianity ... for now anyway ... till you reject that completely and move onto the next. 

There are plenty religions out there to choose from.

No ... there is no meeting in the middle. You cannot select your favourite parts of one and mush it together with your favourites of another.

Have you lost your mind? It doesn't work like that. I thought you were a little smarter than that.

Either renounce this lifeless hybrid you call a religion ... or go for it ... balls to the walls.

By the way ... the Jews rejected Christ because they expected Him to destroy their enemy, the Romans ... and to rule over them as their King. Instead He up and died on the cross. That wasn't supposed to happen. They even called for Him to come down from the cross if He were the Christ. He didn't. He gave up His ghost and descended into the pit of Hell to take the keys of death away from Lucifer ... among other things.

What they didn't realize is that His kingdom wasn't of this world. He told them so several times over but they would not hear.

I would have thought you'd have done your homework properly.

It seems I was wrong. You do want to be spoon fed after all.

 Bwahahahahaha I knew my ol friend rooitwit would not be able to resists making a complete twit of himself. Rooitwit your ingnorance about Christianity exceeds even you stupidity in giving any credence to the ludicrous theory of evolution so discredited by science today.Grow up rooitwit you are getting on in years now and all this childish babling needs to be set aside. Hahahahhahahaha
I would have thought you'd have done your homework properly. 

Man these half bakes and not even remotely  even done any thinking never mind investigation. You post amnterial for them to look and and all they do is rant away like loonies. Incapble of learning so closed are their bigoted "minds". They are simply politically correct sponges sucking up one load of drivel after the next.  They are as gullible as they come and their foolishness knows no limits. In one sense it is so outlandish as to be very very funny but of course its also very tragic.Wared DUD, ab ass and plumpie please oaks do grow up! Join the real world! Try and excercise some discerment. Ditto ou rooitwit a hatter of not e!!

 Hi CC

Nope. I don't feel hollow and empty at all. Looking for answers and hearing other people's opinions on things doesn't mean that i'm hollow bud. It means 'm having a conversation. Nothing more and nothing less.

No, i don't believe in something. I have an idea of how i think the world around me works, but i change that idea as and when new information comes to light. What you are referring to when you say i "believe in something" is, i guess, the explanation i gave you on HOW THE JEWISH PEOPLE in general view the things we discussed. Again...NOT ME. I can't make this any clearer. But fine, if you want to make it seem as though it's me who made this up, and if that helps you to not confront the questions i asked...then so be it.

Why is it that you are so adamant to prove that it is me who thinks this stuff? I have told you multiple times that it's not what i believe...IT's WHAT JEWS BELIEVE. Does it make it easier for you to answer my questions if you can approach the debate as though i am a evil misguided crackpot?

Nothing has been "planted" in my head. Well, having an inquiring mind. Maybe being inquiring is the root of all evil, i don't know. If that is the case, then i guess you are correct.

No, those were not the only reasons the Jews rejected Jesus. Another reason is because their book says that the Messiah was to be completely human. Jesus was not...he was a demi-god of sorts, since he did not have a human father. Unless his mom managed to remain a virgin whilst becoming pregnant? He also did not usher in an era of peace and goodness for all mankind. Anyway, not that you care, but i will list here a bunch of things which the Messiah in the Old Testament(Original version) was supposed to do/be...

• Isaiah 1:26: "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City." Some Jews interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established."
• Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance.
  
• The whole world will worship the One God of Israel
  
• He will be descended from King David Via Soloman
  
• The "spirit of the Lord" will be upon him, and he will have a "fear of God" evil
  

and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership


• Knowledge of God will fill the world
  
• He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations
  
• All Israelites will be returned to their homeland
  
• Death will be swallowed up forever
  
• There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease
  
• All of the dead will rise again
  

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness


• He will be a messenger of peace
  
• Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel
  
• The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance
  
• The ruined cities of Israel will be restored
  
• Weapons of war will be destroyed
  
• The people of Israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah Study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart
• He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart
• He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful

Ok, well how many of the above did he fulfill? Thus, can you blame them for not considering him the Messiah and feeling that Christians hijacked their religion and changed it to suite their requirements...as you seem to say i have done IE Pick and choose what you want to believe.

If you consider that you are correct and that all the Jews that don't believe in Jesus will go to hell even though they also follow the word of God and that there is no middle ground for Christians and Jews. Then I guess for me to even consider that maybe, hopefully, there could be a middle ground since i cant stand the idea of so many people going to hell(the hell you believe in), then yeah. I am immoral and certainly require salvation. And i most certainly have lost my mind.

Again, it's NOT MY TWISTED TRANS LATION.

Also, why is it that as we go further into this, you don't seem to answer any questions? Well you tried to answer a little at the start, by saying "Because that's how it is", but then you have slowly turned into becoming insulting?

Why even bother to take part in this kind of conversation if you will become immature as soon as you can't answer? And also, why is it that, i'm not Jewish, Christian, Muslim etc and yet i am able to have a mature conversation with you, simply pointing our things and that i've read about or learnt first hand, and then asking questions...and you are not able to do the same?

So to summarise...You can ignore everything i wrote here but just elaborate for me on these two things...

1) Why do you insist on saying that it is ME who is twisted and has lost my mind to believe the above, when i have clearly pointed out that A) I don't believe it and B) it's from the Jewish faith which pre-exists yours and is the faith yours is "based" on.

2) Why have you felt the need to become aggressive and insulting?

Just those two. That's all i'd like you to address. My guess is it will be ignored.

 I read this and my heart weeps for all the misinformed Christians whose venom spitting is worse than many a jihad deed committed.
Yes, there are people committing unforgivable crimes against innocent people and many do that in the name of religion.  Does that immediately make every person who is not a Christian a bad and unwanted piece of scum?  Reading the ramblings of the mad-man who started this thread it does seem as if there is no space in his heart for anyone but himself and those who share his warped sense of religion.
I too have religious friends from other religious groups but I have yet to meet one with such thick blinkers as the ones worn by the mad-man who started this thread.  You my friend are a typical example of the feeble minded folk who believe everything the Western media feed you.One day you too will stand before your God and he will ask you why you called yourself Christian if you were so hellbent on living a life totally opposite to what your Christ preached.
You are my friend a bad example of you own faith and in so being you are tainting other people with your intolerance and judgmental behaviour.
If all Christians are like you (as you try and tell everyone that all Muslims are the same) then there is no hope for this world.  Instead of finding a solution together with people who also condemn the atrocities - you go on this crusade of blaming and playing holier than thou games.
I will pray for you my friend because you are so f()cking lost in the wilderness of hate you will never be free.
Salaam!  

 Coloured Fred hating what God hates is a wise thing as he hates evil.
Clealry you have no idea of what is right and what is evil.I have quotes the koran texts re jihad against infidels, how they shouldnt have non muslims as friends and how the koran gives the the right to lie to infidels. Their moon god has led them severely astray and the results of their behviour to others are there for the whole world to see. 
The folk against muslims today in every country bar muslim lands do so because of the evil they see coming out of islam. They want to protect themsleves, their beloved families and people and culture. No sane person can argue with that. You would problably have supported Hitlerl saying it was unkind to criticise him/Fortunatley folk across the board are standing up and saying we dont want islam and we dont want sharia law. Nothing wrong with that - its the only sane respone.
I will pray for you my friend because you are so f()cking lost in the wilderness of hate you will never be free.
WHATA GIVE AWAY BY OU COLOURED FRED. So full of hate he cant pray for somebody. Well in cloured's case I wold not value those prayers as I am suspicious as to who would answer them!!
Coloured Fred get a grip. You are sounding like that raving halfwit ab ass. Bwahahahahhahahahahahhaha. ou warped DUD needs another 50 points of IQ to reach ass level. 
The madness coloured fred is in the koran which has all this very nasty stuff in it aimed at the so called infidel. I know you hate have these things revealed but hey I am only quotting the relevant surahs so that all may see them.A good thing coming out of jihad is the spotlight islam is coming under. Ignorance has been its biggest benefactor. Also the increasing numbers leaving Islam. Unfortunately many are becoming atheists as they now believe God is some sort of monster. They shou ld not however confuse allah the moon god with the true GOD

 Coloured Fred hating what God hates is a wise thing as he hates evil.
Clealry you have no idea of what is right and what is evil.I have quotes the koran texts re jihad against infidels, how they shouldnt have non muslims as friends and how the koran gives the the right to lie to infidels. Their moon god has led them severely astray and the results of their behviour to others are there for the whole world to see. 
The folk against muslims today in every country bar muslim lands do so because of the evil they see coming out of islam. They want to protect themsleves, their beloved families and people and culture. No sane person can argue with that. You would problably have supported Hitlerl saying it was unkind to criticise him/Fortunatley folk across the board are standing up and saying we dont want islam and we dont want sharia law. Nothing wrong with that - its the only sane respone.
I will pray for you my friend because you are so f()cking lost in the wilderness of hate you will never be free.
WHATA GIVE AWAY BY OU COLOURED FRED. So full of hate he cant pray for somebody. Well in cloured's case I wold not value those prayers as I am suspicious as to who would answer them!!
Coloured Fred get a grip. You are sounding like that raving halfwit ab ass. Bwahahahahhahahahahahhaha. ou warped DUD needs another 50 points of IQ to reach ass level. 
The madness coloured fred is in the koran which has all this very nasty stuff in it aimed at the so called infidel. I know you hate have these things revealed but hey I am only quotting the relevant surahs so that all may see them.A good thing coming out of jihad is the spotlight islam is coming under. Ignorance has been its biggest benefactor. Also the increasing numbers leaving Islam. Unfortunately many are becoming atheists as they now believe God is some sort of monster. They shou ld not however confuse allah the moon god with the true GOD

The common denominator here being Beeno. EVERYONE ELSE IS GOING TO HELL! Beeno, it upsets you when Freddie sets an example for you huh? So much so that yet again, just because his opinion, which he delivered quite humbly, differs from yours, you feel the need to insult him. Truth stings like a wasp on steroids. I'm glad that your brain is at least still able to recognize truth...though of course your ego is completely unnequiped to help you deal with it like a man. Nothing new there. By the way, neither you nor CC have answered me yet. Shall I quote you..."Run rabbit...RUN." Nah, I'll just wish you a lovely day ;)

Sorry Plum ... I tried to get through your long winded bullsh!t story but could only manage till here.

"No, those were not the only reasons the Jews rejected Jesus. Another reason is because their book says that the Messiah was to be completely human. Jesus was not...he was a demi-god of sorts, since he did not have a human father.

I'm a little puzzled ...

The Israeli nation is waiting for their Messiah ... right?? ... the Son of God ... for an eternity ... to deliver them from the hand of their enemy ... and to take up His rightful spot on the throne as their King ... right??.

Yet, from what your telling me, they knew very well that He was divinely conceived ... fully convinced that the child Mary was carrying, was in fact placed there by the hand of the Living God ... that the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob had actually fulfilled a prophesy regarding the coming Christ ... YET ... knowing all this ... they still decided to reject Him ... because he wasn't human enough for them.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa!!!!!

You are a liar, Plum. You fabricate as far as you go. I must say, I'm rather disappointed.

Something else that I'd like you to please explain ... you are obviously convinced of His divine conception ... yet you too reject Him ... and Christianity for that matter.

Tell you what, Liar ... don't bother with an explanation. I really don't want to hear anything else from you.

Umm, no. They are saying that if Christians reckon he was conceived from a (mom + something else) then he cannot be the Messiah. Because remember, according to Christianity and Judaism, angels are also not human. Neither are giants, nor demons. So, taking into account all the kinds of sentient beings in these works...Jesus not having a human father does not automatically qualify him to be the Messiah. What does "Demi-god of sorts" mean in your book CC? I am not convinced of any of this stuff. I am referring to what is written. I keep telling you I don't believe it. All I have said was that the Jews version of Hell and Satan make more sense to me. I think you are interested totally misinterpreting what I'm saying. I can't understand why you say I am lying? You keep trying to trip me up on my own words haha. But it's not working. Now are you gonna answer my two simple questions or not?