Jean vs Fransie the stats

So far, if you were to believe most of what is said, Jean is a huge problem defensively and on attack. The notion that Fransie just may be the problem at 12 doesn't occur. But that seems to be the case. I compare  our two centres for  those tests this year, they have both played together.

Jean  stats  for tackles made/missed, metres gained and defenders beaten:.. 

3/1....5...0

2/0...50..1

5/0..21...1

4/1...5..0

7/1....52..2

Total=  21/3.....133....4

Fransie's stats for the same thing:

5/1....7...0

1/1....28...2

6/1....16.....0

3/0....18....3

7/1...19...1

Total= 22/4....88...6

The first observation is that these stats for both players are mediocre....so something is going wrong. Secondly it's odd to see your inside centre attempting the same number of tackles as  13....at 12 Jean out tackled Fury by some margin. Wynand for example made 11 tackles in his one test.

Secondly there is no penetration at 12 ....Fransie is making almost no metres. Jean is making more, but still not enough. One has to ask though, is Fransie creating anything for Jean with his lack of penetration.

It's hard to say the Jean at 13 thing hasn't worked, because the Fransie at 12 thing certainly hasn't worked. With Fransie, as with Alberts, we  have found power without guile doesn't crack modern defences. Fransie has been about as dangerous as Braam at 12....and considerably less dangerous than de Wet Barry.

Laughable at best really. First of all the entire backline is on the back foot, as previously stated, secondly, teams are targetting Jean. Something opponents were not so happy to do is take Fourie head on, neither Fransie. Jean has now been run over exactly six times under Meyer. And a lot of ball is being worked through him with very little success. One of the reasons we are getting turne over out wide.

the thing is the likes of frans was a major factor when he played at the sharks just a few weeks back but in the current mindset and approach there seems to be a clear method that they need to play a certain way and to be fair its not just franna but the whole backline looks out of sorts. stats just prove it too. there is a bigger issue more than the specific player himself

Cat your notion that Frans is going to be a success at 12 is looking very shaky. What has he done that's positive at 12?

They r both poor centres. Fransie needs to play at fulback (lambie to inside cntre) and JdV needs to be sent to the old age home.

franna is to slow at 15. his boot and option taking needs to be closer to the gameline. at the back he does not influence a lot seeing that he does not get the ball a lot. lambie is a better 15 in my view. just needs some game time

I agree lambie is beter then Frans Steyn at fulback but if u going to play Frans then Id rather he was @ 15 then @ 12. I wd pick Lambie at 10, 12, 13 or 15 but HM is 2 stupid 2 see his talent.

HM cant coach a backline out of a paper bag to be fair so i reckon your statement is pretty much spot on

True but i dont think he can coach a fwd pack out of a paper bag either so we r doubly screwed!!!

i reckon if he could he would pick his whole team to be flanks and 8th men. i reckon vermeulen has a great chance to be the next lfyhalf mate

Personally I would give this pairing one more game. If it doesn't work, shift Jean back into 12....where he has been very consistent. And move young Jordaan into 13. He played a great game in the S15 final which is as close to test conditions as one gets.

Fransie I fear will lose out to Lambie at 15. Lambie is just so much smarter.

Agree about lambie but disagree about JdV. He has been a weakness ever since Jacques Fourie retired from test rugby. Its obvius that JF made JdV look beter then he rly is and now he is exposed. Time for JdV to hang up his boots!!

Nonsense.....the player outside doesn't make the player inside look better. If JdV got one decent pass from Fury in 6 years I'd be surprised. Fury is one of the great mistaken myths of Bok rugby.

wtf is Fury?

jdv has not had a great game is ages to be fair they both need a shakeup. jean is 31 that is not really buidling a future team. jordaan is class so maybe there needs to be a big call to maybe look to other players to me jdv's replacement should either be jordaan or de jongh. i think jordaan is something special

Agree! Jordaan, de jongh, jp du Plessis, JJ engelbregt, these r the guys we sld be looking at!!!!

I agree Jean is probably in his last season.....but he is still the best 12 we have. As for the vegetable's list, I dunno this du Plessis guy, but all the rest are 13s. De Jongh cannot take the battering at 12. JJ is a pathetic tackler ala Pierre Spies....he has no technique. Guys who aren't comfortable with the physical nature of tackling, never seem to get over it.

So until Serfontein or somebody else shows they can outplay top centres....Jean is our only pro.

we have 3 years until the next RWC the time to build a team is now. rather sooner than later. frans can produce the goods but he does not seem to understand nor enjoy his current role. they seem hell bent on using him to setup phase play rather than just telling him to go out there and just play it as he sees it. he has the skillset and the CV to prove he is the best 12 we have its just there needs to be a shakeup.

 I say that Morne should be made the scapegoat of the poor backline play. It probably is his fault anyway.

Lets see Lambie cut the backline from 15, and Goosen at 10 and suddenly our centres will come to life. I still rate both Frans and Jean. Jean is past his best but he is still a good player. 

With Goosen and Lambie on the field we have 2 good player makers who are also good runners that can create and exploit space. Then lets judge our 2 centres. I predict we will then see some good running rugby, like the Sharks and Free State styles. 

Morne and Zane must go.....

You may be right Shark....if there is no penetration at 10....it's hard at 12....and if none at 12, doubly hard at 13. Half a step through a tackle gives momentum, which can then be expoited by the player outside no longer being lined up by his opponent.

You have to beat tackles to win matches. So far Fransie is beating far too few at inside centre to bring our backline to life.

As soon as Goosen is ready, I'd make that change....and certainly, definitely, indubitably Inzane Kirchner has to go.....but maybe Fransie as well.

So Wigboy, yr goin on abt who u think shd or shdnt be Springbok center but u dont know who JP Duplessis is???

ROTFLMAO! U crack me up!

What a load of rubbish. One thing Frans has done is impose himself physically both on attack and defensively. Those stats are complete rubbish. Frans almost always breaks the first tackle and certainly carries forward momentum with ball in hand.

The issue starts at 10, where Morne has been pathetic as a distributor. A 10 is meant to ignite the backs, with your 12 providing much of the same and your 13 providing the finishing touches. The only back amongst these 3 who has looked marginally the part is Frans at 12. Jean has been a complete failure as a 13 and your choice would be to drop Frans and move useless Jean to 12 - wow, you really do have your finger on the button Moz..

Lets get Goosen in at 10, to ignite the backs, with the physical and creative Frans to feed off him and then play a real 13 who has enough clout to actually take on the opposition through skill and speed, instead of crashing into their opponents and dying with the ball or crabbing across the field giving the wings no room to attack. Lets get a youthful 13 in with speed, physicality, a step and a swerve - look no further than JP, Taute, JJ or Jordaan. Its that simple. Get rid of the pathetically inept Morne at 10 and the long past it Jean at 13 who lets face it is not a 13's backside.

Man this post has to take the cake. The real culprits are Morne and Jean, but Moz wants to discard Frans - make Moz the Bok coach I say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Saffex

The real answer is that all three are poor - Francois even more so - because so much was expected of him.   Morne is and has always been below par insofar as backline play is concerned - Jean is a flop at 13, but really no worse than Francois is at 12.   We have to find new players in those three positions - and should start off with Goosen.   If he is brought in and performances are still as poor as at presence - then the other two should go as well.  

In another post I was most critical of the Springbok back line play and indicated that only Lambie and the wings (inclusive of Hougaard as a wing) are really acceptable - the rest are putrid.  

I always was a great Frncois Steyn supporter - but he has gone backwards since 2008-09 and is at present a semi loosie - too slow and unimaginative to be an inside center.   It may be necessary to overcome the present dull performances - but then he himself in the first instance shoul accept that his present performances are below par and needs to improve.   That would help in the rehabilitation of his game. 

 The stats don't lie Dave. It's your biases and eyesight that leads you to conclude Fransie has "imposed" himself. No centre who has gained an embarrassing 88 metres in five games, has imposed himself

9. RP, 10. Lamb, 11. Hougg, 12. JDV, 13. Habana (lost some pace but great on D lately), 14?, 15. Frans (needs to lose weight and grow his hair back...) 

Also.... Bring back Bakkies! What is the go with JP and Bjorn? 

I have also thought about Habana at 13 ....but the JP flop has cooled my enthusiasm for these wing to centre swaps. Couldn't agree more about Bakkies.

I have also thought about Habana at 13 ....but the JP flop has cooled my enthusiasm for these wing to centre swaps. Couldn't agree more about Bakkies.

Funnystone both JP and Basson are injured. We have had a sea of injuries but of course that should never be taken into account - best just blast away at the coach. After all having our players all fit or at least a limited number of inuries would never have had any effect against England, the Argies or OZ.

Bakkies is welcome back in my book providing his form warrants it.

Jean and Morne are NOT the sole reasons for a lack of performance in the backline. There are many factors including the forwards  as well.Go forward ball, quick delivery, game plan. going to ground, kicking ball away, players running of  theflyhalf, injuries, capabilities of the backline coach, predictability  etc etc etc. Hear the wise words of Mallet - Carter would have flopped in the Boks set up.  

Oh that snapster, sharkbok, ragtad  and Mike and some others  would grasp the overall picture.

Moz, Jean although nearing the end, has again, been one of our best backs

The stats are a load of rubbish, for those same stats had Goosen making no line breaks when in fact he broke the line with his first touch.

The reports and ratings of Frans at 12 have been positive by all in the know. Frans has done a good job by imposing himself physically and been a threat throughout. He has made a handy job out of nothing given how poor the Boks have been and how poor the two on either side of him have been. 88m in five games speaks volumes given how crap the Boks have been.

What a joke, lets consider Habana at 13, a complete flop everytime he has been tried there. JP in his last few outings at 13 was outstandig for the Sharks, so your take on his flop is complete bullshit.

JP would be far far better at 13 for the Boks than the poor job Jean has done there. No contest - Jean has been a complete failure at 13

Saffex

I am sorry to differ from you here.   I do think that De Villiers was extremely bad in the tests thus far this year - but so was Francois Steyn.   He has done squat too justify the favourable comments made by you.   Maybe the charge down try was the only eal thing he did - which in any way could count in his favour.   For the rest he was as bad as De Villiers - if not worse.

Him imposing himself on anyone is a joke - but not at all funny.   Unless he bucks up and start playing rugby he does not deserve selection.   I have not seen ONE line break on his part - neither ONE download in a tackle situation.    Really not good enough.  

I am in favour of the removal of Morne Steyn and De Villiers - but if they go and Francois Steyn continue to play the sterile and really poor rugby he played thus far in tests this year - he should also be given the boot..

Mike, the positive comments on Frans have not only come from me, the scribes say the same as do his ratings after each game. He has not set the world alight, he was never going to with the Boks being so poor and having piss poor Morne inside him.

What he has been is imposing and a real handful. The Boks have not played attacking rugby thanks to a poor gameplan by a naive coach, so the chances of Frans breaking free have been zero.

Its called persepective Mike and you dont get that at all. Watch Frans tomorrow, he wont get the opportunity to run with freedom, but what he does do with limited opportunities is very good.