JJ Engelbrecht as a player

I cannot help writing this thread - as Engelbrecht has been punted as the future 13 great hope.   I have always had some reservations about him in defence - since he really plays and defends like a wing.

However, after watching him play at both center and wing this year on CC level I was in fact shocked by what I saw in the recent games.   Lets take for an example the WP - Bulls game.    In a break-out from their own 22 Du Plessis carried the ball and the defeneder was Engelbrecht.   He completely missed the tackle and was lieing on the grass afterwards.   That happened whilst he was on the wing.

When he was moved to center - the situation was much worse.  Both Brache and Du Plessis scored tries with Engelbrecht missing tackles completely.   The Brache try he could be forgiven for - the Du Plessis one inexcusable.

There were problems in other games as well - especially against the Sharks and the Lions.   This guy has speed - but lacks the insight to play at center.   His future is as a wing - bad news otherwise - very bad news.

Complete bullshit. JJ has shown better attacking skills at 13 than any other 13, bar JP at stages for the Sharks. Yes he needs to work on his defence at 13, his issue is not technique, its adapting to the demands of defending at 13 vs on the wing.

Hell given how pathetic Jean was defensively at 13 against Oz, I'd welcome the attacking attributes JJ would bring to the role and know that his defence was something that could easily be rectified given he has never had an issue in the past when it comes to tackling.

JJ's future is at 13 and right now he would be one of my contenders for the Bok 13 spot. It would not take much to improve on the ineffective Jean at 13

Jean missed one tackle against Oz, a head on against a wing with space.....but saved our bacon against the Bargies with brilliant corner flagging tackles. He has proved his capability at defence time and again. JJ has proven his inability to defend against a flank....spot the difference.

Rubbish Jean missed numerous tackles and has offered sweet stuff all on attack. The guy is a complete liability in the Bok side and offers nothing as a leader. He has to go NOW

He missed one tackle....check the stats. Why dont you rather tell us how great Mvovo was.

Saffex

Sorry - but it is NOT bullshit.   His defence in the CC games was very, very poor.   And in all the said games he was poor on attack as well.   If a player fails on CC level - there is no way he can really succeed on higher level.   I may add that he made Du Plessis look exceptional in tthe Bulls-Province game in particular.   Play him on the wing - definitely not a center - this one.

There was nothing wrong with Mvovo at all. I watched the game Jean missed more than one tackle.

Mike dont lie, I saw the CC games you mentioned and there was nothing wrong with JJ 's attacking game at all - esp consideing he has been wasted on the wing.

JJ confirmed during the S15 that he had all the attacking attributes of a 13 to make a great test 13. I dont need any further proof of that. He does need to sharpen his defence at 13, but on attack he was pure class, much like JP was at times.

These youngster make Jean look like a complete amatuer at 13 when it comes to attack and given how shocking Jean was defensively against Oz, I'd have no issue selecting JJ at 13 against NZ.

Your take on JJ is the biggest load of SHIT that I have read in ages. It is on a par with Moz's take on our youthful talent

Moz and Saffex way off the mark. The only good attacking 13s were de Jongh and Robert Ebersohn. Jean has been brutally exposed on defence in every game this year for the Boks and in too manyy big games in the Super XV; fluffing at least 4 tackles, 100%, against the Cheetahs in the latter stages of the competition.

once jp pieterson returns from injury, it will only be a matter of time before he becomes the Boks 13, while the likes of englebrecht and taute will cover the bench and wing.
i still think that hougaard will eventually return to 9, but if he dosent, then thats going to add even more weight to jps center chances.
 

JP Pietersen was a total tragedy at 13, just as I predicted. In fact, his defence and general play totally disintegrated as his time in the position continued. He just isn't a centre, end of story. You cannot force what cannot be done. Besides JP is still the top wing alonside Habana, the rest have fallen far off the pace of these two. Pietersen can run a bit at defenders, but it's too disjointed, he has no feel for the position and hence nothing ever sparked from him, that despite Whitehead having a fine season beside him. I doubt JP made more than 60% of his tackles and aside from the odd individual break - not once doing anything from structured play - he was useless. JP, McLeod, Lambie, Alberts, the locks and the front row were a shambles. Play JP at 13 for the Boks and it will finish him and destroy his career. How many converts from wing to 13 have been successful? None.

As for Hougaard, he is the premier 9 of the Southern Hemisphere. But as always, our better players get castigated by simpleton Saffers who are brain-rinsed by Keo and his horde of trolls.
 

how many converts from wing to 13 have been successful??? tana umaga, maa nonu, stirling mortlock,,,,,

so no requiscat, none is not correct.

 NewZealand and Australian wings do tend to convert better into centres than Sa players. The reason being is the standard of passing is better than in SA. Our Centres are generally not even good passers, let alone the wings. 

Umaga was brilliant at not only outside centre, but even inside center. I remember the one pass he made against the British Lions, in 2005 I think. He was running at full speed and passed to the wing, probably about a 30 metre pass that was perfect. Graeme Henry said at the post match interview that the pass was unbelievable. 

One thing that MVOVO proved over the weekend, is that he will never be a center. That double tackle by Adam Ashley cooper was the most poor play making ability ever. He crab ran into Jean Devilliers, instead of running straight to draw his man. This made it possibale for AAC to tackle them both in one tackle. Embarrasing actually.....

You have to feel for Meyer, these type of basic skills should be learnt at school level, let alone Super15 level or test level.

I'm talking South African's Sasuke. New Zealand and Australia is a different story as they more often than not have backs with generic skill sets. South Africa have never successfully converted an established wing to centre.

The failure to draw the man is a big problem for Saffers in general and one which has dogged the Sharks in particular. I dubbed Plumtree's backline philosophy as "shuffle-ball", making passes just for the hell of it. JP was a chief culprit here too, and something that Jean has failed at too - but then, Jean was never a centre either, he is a wing in the mold of JP, vice-versa actually, but you understand what I mean.

Saffex

This thread was not a discussion of Jean De Villers - I do believe that he was exceptionally poor in all but one of the tests he played in this year and that it is time for him to be replaced.

The discussion dealt with Engelbrecht and in essence his attacking and defnesive abilities after his release by Meyer from the Springbok squad.     I did not mention any Super 15 games - where I can in particular remember two good attacking moves involving him - in both cases the ball died with him when tackled and the Bulls did not benefit from the moves scoring tries in the end.   I also remember at leasst an equal number of cases where he failed in defensive play.

I do believe - and strongly so - that   De Villiers need to go.    I have seen ZERO qualities on the part of Engelbecht indicating he is the one to replace De Villiers.   I believe if he replaces De Villiers he would be a one or two test player - nothing more.   Matter of fact I hope they do replace him - it will at least quiten you down.:)

The problem with the sterile Springbok backline is NOT only De Villiers.   It starts with Morne Steyn - the worst attacking flyhalf since Jannie De Beer and Braam van Straaten - augmented in the last few tests by a very average Francois Steyn.   The latter's display in the last few tests was nothing to write home about.   He purely played crash ball and not very successfully at that.   He never made a clean line break and apparently does not know how to off-load balls in tackle situations, creating space for outside players.   At this stage he is a very average no 12 and need to sharpen up drastically or go.    Incidentally Mozart is correct - Francois Steyn did miss that tackle that nearly led to a try by the POMS in the 2007 WC Final.  Then there is De Villers - who is way past his sell-by date and should go as a matter of urgency.   

In the past few tests there were no structured plays where the balls reached the wings - never once was the ball passed to them.   The wings had to look for work all the times - otherwise they would never touch the ball during games.   Where they did manage to get the ball in open play they did remarkably well.    That brings me to Mvovo - his display when he was brought on against the Aussies was the most shocking display  I have seen in years.    He has SPEED - nothing else.   He will be out of the Springbok team and bench on the return of the team to SA.   

I am hoping against hope that something is done to replace Morne Steyn at flyhalf and De Villiers at 13 - but that plus the absolute disgrace we have as a backline coach - will change matters.   If that happens the present excuse for poor and sterile play by Francois Steyn will also go out of the window.   If it happens and the latter continues playing like he did in the past few tests - he should also go and play rugby in France - if any team there would have him, which I doubt as well.

Our backline play is a real disgrace and I put the issue frankly and squarely on the players involved plus the atrocious backline coach - nothing else.   There now suddenly is an excuse that they do not get good balls from the forwards - but they do get good balls and stuff those up completely.    I would rather see a completely new backline starting with the scrummie and replace all players - bar the wings - than to see them continueing playing the sterile rugby they have been playing.   By all means - bring in younger players with ball sense and handling skills (and also defensive abilities) - not the slow and useless goats we have at present.  Incidently - talking about the scrummie - Hougaard is wated in that position - he neither has the instincts or the ball-passing abilities of a good scrummie and Meyer apparently realized that.   I do not think he would ever be used as a scrummie again.  

STRONG LANGUAGE - BUT THE SITUATION IS SO BAD THAT I FEEL WE ARE GOING NOWHERE WITH THE PRESENT CROWD.   The question remains who should be brought in and who not.   I believe that a number of experiments will start to happen and some players will go out of the window after one or two tests as a result of failure - problem is Engelbrecht is one of those that will most likely end up as a mistake as well - especially if his present CC form is an indication of what he is capable of.

if he is meant to play at 13 then JJ needs to get groomed now. the demands and lines for a 13 is light years different that wing ext. he just needs time to develop and the relevant coaching offcourse. that being said will the blue bulls develop him correctly ???? will he turn into yet another mindless battering ram like meisiekind ?????

there is a lot of junior talent to pick from the really issue is getting them to a elite level. development needs to happen. egos aside we need to fasttrack those that show promise and concentrate on them moving forward. the like fo jdv and co have at most a year in them. so to use them in a mentorship role for the very young players to learn form him really boost our chances going forward.

mark this post my brus, jp pieterson WILL be the Boks incumbent 13 soon enough and if jj englbrecht does start to get more gametime, it will be from the bench or on the wing.

ive seen enough good qualities from jp pieterson at 13 to know he can succeed there. he still has ample of room for improvement, but that just further strngthens my jp for 13 convictions.