JJ Engelbrecht

I was one of the first people to criticise him last year. This year he has been 200 times better. Im still not 100% sure of his defence, but I must admit he is looking rather good this year.

Engelbrecht hd a mixed bag of performances this year.  In some games he wa good - in others rather below par.  In some games his defence let him down and in other games he was better.   On Saturday he ws good in defence - so I really have no negatives on him this week.

I would still not support his selection for the Springbok team - since I am not sure about him - he is in a way unpredictable.   I would rather have Serfontein at 12 and De Villiers at 13 or vice versa.   It would be a trversy of justice if De Villiers is not played in teh Springbok team this year.  Throughout the season thus far - he was by a mile the most impressive center in SA.  

Engelbrecht????????????????  Too one-dimensional and too questionabe on defence.

Well there was no comparison between JJs performance against a totally rattled Hurricanes team and Jean's influential game against the Blues. Apart from the intercept what did JJ really do? Take out Smith. Really? So any time a player gets injured in a collision that's a positive for the other guy?

Engelbrecht has been better this year. And in the last 3 weeks he has probably been our best 13. But this is a period where the Bools have dominated. During the same period Morne has emerged as our best flyhalf, and even his running game has perked up. Why? Because the Bools backs are getting the ball with acres of space.

Dave gets credit for sticking with JJ, he is now a player to be considered. And given the lack of credible alternatives, apart from de Jongh, he almost has to be considered. Face it Mike's pick Jordaan crashed and burned against big opponents. Cook and Sadi aren't test material. The only other option is to move Jean, but he is a world class 12.

So JJ has a huge opportunity. 'But before I conclude he is test material, I want to see him play well in a really tight game. I want to see him bring up the defensive line every time, and not leave gaps. He struggled with the step up to S15.....test are going to be tighter and faster paced.

But if the Bools get to the playoffs, test like games are coming.... and if he can show composure when the pressure is really on, I'll be a convert. Right now I'm just not convinced.

 Does not make enough contribution to be considered a number 13. Still looks like a wing playing at 13. Take a look at Conrad Smith for the required play of an outside center

 Does not make enough contribution to be considered a number 13. Still looks like a wing playing at 13. Take a look at Conrad Smith for the required play of an outside center

Yes, flat on his back!  LOL - only joking boss.

 Travesty of justice would be JDV not in the backline for the Boks based on leadership, experience and continued excellence. Talk about a consistent injury free performer over the past couple years. He needs to be there to mentor these young guys as well

Serfontein has the physicality that Engelbrecht lacks and almost as much explosiveness so he must be the other center. Engelbrecht should get a look off the bench - maybe at wing.

Mozart

You are really the tops.  When it fits your argument - you love the quote stats.  When it does not you use 1 thing in a game to define the career of  a player.  Lets look at the tackle stats of the 13's this year:-

Engelbrecht   -     Tackles made      =     67

                             Tackles missed   =     11

Jordaan         -     Tackles made      =     62

                             Takles missed     =       4

De Jongh       -     Tackles made      =     36

                             Tackles missed    =    12

The problem is that the tackles missed by Engelbrecht and De Jongh resulted in tries being scored against their teams - the one tackle missed on Fruean - which you and Saffex write books about - led to no points for the Crusaders.   Capice.

If you want to rule out a player on defence - the first one to be ruled out is De Jongh, followd by Engelbrecht.   I have a much more solid reason why I was not really impressed with Jordaan - and that was his attacking play.  Now if you give that as a reason -I would go with you.   The defence story is a myth.   Why do you always use stats when it fits your argument and ignore them when you write nonsence on this Board?

Everybody misses tackles Oom Maaik....but when it becomes apparent, as it did in Fruean vs Jordaan, that the player is incapable of tackling an opponent......that's a different story. Given an open field situation one can have no confidence Fruean would be stopped by Jordaan. De Jongh is an entirely superior tackler....and most of the tackles he has missed were in the cause of aggressive defence.....flying up on an opponent and trying to pin him deep behind the advantage line.

And you go ahead and document for us which tackle de Jongh has missed which led to a try. I can't remember one, but you can correct me, unless of course you are just talking the usual bull.

As sad as it was to see Smith go down, there was a positive in that JJ beat his man in the process. There is no doubt that we need to see JJ tested more and his development at 13 is far from complete. What he has shown is the potential he promised early on. 

What I like about JJ is that he looks to attack space, he does not look to take contact like so many centres do. He has the physical attributes to impose himself physically if he has to but his strength is that he relies on this only if beating his man is not a possibility. JJ has the pace of a wing, always a plus with a 13 and he has a really good step. 

I really do laugh at these clowns who keep throwing the JJ on the wing crap. Talk about rugby ignorance, why on earth would you want JJ on the wing, when he is making a good fist of 13 and we are short of an obvious candidate at 13? How stupid and short sighted is wanting JJ on the wing. What to play ahead of Habana or JP?

Our best 3 options at centre are Jean, JJ and Serfontein

Mozart

So - as per normal Mozart ignore the stats when it comes to one of his favoured players.   Trust De Jong who miss 25% of his tackles to be acceptable - but Jordaan's 3% is unacceptable - because of one tackle where Jordaan used the wrong tehnique in one game.  That is the worst piece of logic ever.   De Jongh misses tackles routinely and is guaranteed to miss tackles badly as well.   De Jongh ia superior tackler and he misses because of his aggressive tackling according to you.   Miss 1 in every 4 attempted tackles because of aggressive tackling - what a load of bullshit to make a stateent like that.   

And when i quoted the Twickenham vanishing stats on De Jongh - that got entirely ignored,   He is not an international players backside - despite your spirited defence of him.

Insofar as missed tackles leading to tries is concerned - one in the Cheetahs game and one in the Brumbies game.

Now to help you further - I have extracted the points scored in Foxpsort for De Jongh in his last thre games:-

  Sharks   =    19 points

  Hurricanes  =   1 point

  Blues           =   13 points.

The above point allocation is based on the performance of the player and is more or less in line with the ESPN  stats - which you normally refer to as a true reflection , but ignores when  it does not fit your book:-

The point allocation made is a disgrace for any player on Super 15 level.   To average 11 points per match in three matches will in other franchises be an immediate cause for dismissal of a player from the squad - but Coetzee has him on a pedestal - same as you.  

I say Jordaan is not fit for selection - get in Foxsport the point allocation for achievements are as follows:-

  Jordaan    -      152 points

  Engelbrecht  -   136 points

  De Jongh      -      92 points

Thus far he has 92 points from 7 matches - which equates to an average of 13,15 per match. You can ignore that and continue to think he is an acceptable center - but he is not at all on Super15 level.  

Yet- in your estimation - confounding all facts - you rate De Jongh higher as a center than Jordaan.  But ignore statistical facts and keep on harping on one incident in one match and you keep on making a fool of yourself.  

You put JJ on the wing so he can be a potential starter in the Bok setup. He's not going to supplant JDV, Serfontein , JDJ and/or Ebersohn at center in current setup. Habana and JP are both moving on and becoming less available - Rhule / Basson / Mvovo do not inspire a lot of confidence and there is opportunity there for JJ

BTW - the Hougaard-at-wing experiment needs to be forgotten. He either shapes at scrummie or moves on. 

Oh what crap, JJ is playing centre and doing a good job, why on earth would you want to move him to the wing? JP is 26, he has many years ahead of him. There is no way in hell the likes of de Jongh or Ebersohn are ever going to make it as test centres and Jean is in his 30's.

JJ has been playing 13 for the past 2 years, this notion of him being better on the wing is a load of bullshit and smacks of short sightedness. Why on earth would you want to move a player doing well in one position, to a position that he has not played for two seasons. Its just stupid, especially considering we have a vacancy at 13 and none on the wing.

 Rhule has scored the most tries out of all the SA wings. JJ should stay at 13 where he is needed and plays his best rugger. Can't wait for Dries Swanepoel, but he's most likely destined for the Bok jersey next season or maybe the season after!

 Not saying he isn't any good at 13 or that he doesn't deserve a shot there, but you gotta be pragmatic and understand that with the current setup and coaching staff he isn't going to get a look at the center position. Just not going to happen in my opinion. JDV and JDJ are the incumbents, Serfontein and Ebersohn are obviously next in line based on current form and the camp invites. 

He's a good player and one that I think could help the Boks, so put him on the wing where there is more of an opportunity and see what he can do - better than having him as 3rd or 4th cover at center. 

Shezza - I don't think the most tries scored stat says much on its own except that Rhule plays on a side not afraid to spread the ball wide and has been the beneficiary of good ball movement and speed. Rhule hasn't created a lot in my opinion. I would hesitate to put him on the international stage. Basson led the Super 14 in tries a couple years ago and that hasn't translated to the international level at all. JJ is stronger than either Rhule or Basson.

Well its not going to take long for Meyer to realise that you cant play test rugby with little centres. de Jongh and Ebersohn will not last and Jean has one year left in him. JJ has to come into contention as he is our best 13 right now. de Jongh is not even close and Ebersohn is playing 12 and not made an impression for a good few games now.

JP has many years in him, Habana another year at least and Rhule is the next in line. JJ has no more chance of making it at wing than he does at 13. We need him at 13 not on the wing.

i agree with oimatey, put englebrechtt on the wing and let him build into becoming a regular starting Bok player.
Boks do have some issues though, cos their options in the midfield are limited, JDVs time is around the corner, but his experience will be a strong factor and IMO meyer will retain his services.

if the Boks are silly enough to let jan serfontein play in the under 20s, then they should use the june test eries to play englebrechtt at 13, but keep JDV at 12 as he will help balance the greeness of englebrechtt.

given the quality of opponents in the june test series, i would have rather have seen jan serfontein at 12 and JDV at 13 for the same reasons, only i think sefontein is ready now.

i agree with mozters assesment of the situation, englebrechtt wasnt responsible for conrads KO, it was just a poor tackling technique, the same thing was said about ezebth when he rattled bizzy. bizzys head was in the wrong place at the wrong time hence himgetting dazed.

but mozters point about the bulls hitting a good patch is spot on, the measure of a player should be taken as a whole, not just how they perform when everythings going right, but how they perform when everythings going wrong and thats why i really rate serfontein.

ive been a staunch defender of some of the threads here against jj, but while he was great against the hurricanes, he was very ordinary against the crusaders and the question of how he preforms against the top teams is a valid question, the hurricanes, warratahs and kings are not close to ebing the best from the SANZAR countries and thats who the bulls have faced the last three games.

i do think that the serfontien/englebrechtt combo will be the Boks incumnbent midfield combo by the next RWC though, when they click, they are a real handful.

Oom Maaik you seem to have compartment syndrome of the brain.....heavy pressure/small brain. Look you stupid old coot Fruean got the ball twice and ran over Jordaan twice. I have zero faith in Jordaan defending a big guy like Fruean in tests. Leave him in the CC where he can show his speed running through acres of empty space.....allowing a fool like you to tell us how stupid Meyer was for leaving him out. You'll be happy and the Boks wont have to deal with a guy who couldn't stop O Gara on the burst.

Oh so JJ opposing Conrad Smith is not a test then? JJ game against the Saders was solid. What I dont get from you clowns wanting JJ on the wing is who do you propose he replaces - Habana or JP?

JJ needs to play 13 for the Boks - end of story. It would be stupidity playing him on the wing and it would do his development at 13 a disservice.

Jean at 13 is a big no, no. If he is to play for the Boks it has to be at 12. We should be looking at Jean, JJ and Serfontein as our three options at centre, one on the bench.

Agreed Moz, Fruean completely exposed Jordaan. I had reservations about his physicality and the way Fruean brushed him aside, confirmed my fears.

There is a big difference between missing a tackle and being bashed out of the way for the simple reason that you are not physical enough to front up.

As good as Aplon is, Ranger showed exactly why Aplon is not a test candidate. Ranger bashed him out the way with ease. Jordaan is a gifted player, but he needs to stick to wing if he hopes to make it.

@saffex,
who does jj replace on the wing??? thats easy bro, replace them both. im of the view that theres no need to select players who arent based in SA or who are planning to leave, theres a mountain of talent in SA begging for the opportunity te rep SA, buts its disheartning when the likes of steenkamp can make the Boks but kitshoff cant, what a joke, o_O

in jps case hes still going to be playing for the sharks next year, but because he signed up with japan, i doubt he will be available for IRC and if hes not available for the IRC, then why would u waste the june test series on him, when it is a prime opportunity to test out some of the players who prob will be.
still, IMO i would only pick players who stick to SA and i have similar views with NZ. i was completely against SBW playing against ireland and OZ last year, despite him being the best 12 in the spXV and the world hands down.

i wouldnt say that englebrechtt was solid against the crusaders, but he wasnt bad either, just like the bulls as whole in that game he was for lack of a better word, bland. the crusaders dictated the terms of that game from start to finish and there wasnt a single thing that any bulls player did to counteract that except make up numbers.

 I would never even consider JDJ as 13, there's nothing special about him, he's big ordinary and has been benefitting from De Villiers good form. JJ has that ability to draw defenders towards him and get over the gainline and when he has a decent 12 inside him he shines brighter. His interception try complements his vision, would've never seen JDJ run so far in an attempt to intercept. 

Oi, Rhule's tries against the Waratahs and Rebels weren't just simple finishers they required a lot of pace, awareness and a bit of guile. Rhule is a suitable replacemt for Habana but I'm not writing Habana off because he's going oversea's.

@shezza,

when the hurricanes are in their 22 and passing the ball 20 times from side to side making no ground and then a prop passes a long pass with more hang time then jordan, then it makes intercepts like that easy.

IMO any team/player playing the hurricanes on sat would have shined, including de jong.

 They may be easy but there is a huge risk, JDJ wouldn't of dared come off his line just in case he would've failed, there's no flair in his play. Flair in my eyes is when a player has some audacity, JDJ hasn't got this.

Your opinion clearly shows you haven't payed attention to the form of the Bulls. They are playing very well and I would bet my life that the neither the Stormers nor the Sharks would've shined against the Canes. Before you mention it, I'm a Cheetahs supporter not Bulls.

 I would say de Jonghs break setting up de Villiers, showed flair. I agree, however, that de Jongh is not proactive enough. Once in a bit of space he is devastating, he needs to run more lines as he did in that try.

My own feeling if we are looking for another 10 year incumbent, like JdV, the only real candidate out there is Serfontein. I'm with Oi on this...I'd play Jean at 12, Serfontein at 13.

Mozart

You are talkingutter crap again.  When did  Fruean ran over Jordaan TWICE - manufacturing things again.  In that game Jordaan missed ONE TACKLE only - he made 7 tackles five of those he tackled Freuan.  When did the second miss happen?     In your imagination maybe.

I would suggest that you never ever use stats again to justify points you make on this Forum - because if you regard it as meaningless in some cases and meaningful in others - you are practicing bullshit.   Either stats is relaiable to support opinions or is unreliAble should be ignored completely.  Saffex ignore hem completely - you use them when it suits your argument and then falsify them if it does not suit your argument.  

No Sas, I have no issue selecting foreign based Boks, so JP and Habana would be my choices on the wing, with Rhule pushing for a spot.

I would not consider JJ on the wing and if I was selecting the Bok side now, my centre pair would be Serfontein and JJ, without a flinch. I would never waste JJ on the wing

The first four games Engelbrecht played this year in Super 15 was below par in performance - but his last four games were good.   I will have no problem with him on Super 15 level at all - but the question remains is he good enough on Springbok level against stronger opposition?   I share Mozart's idea - if Meyer wants to use him - he should put him on the bench and try him out to see what happens on higher level.  To select him outright I believe would be an experiment that could easily fail.

My first choice center pairing remains - De Villiers and Serfontein.    I also believe that De Villiers is getting close to retirement age -  but he is still good enough to perform on high level and it would not wise to experiment with other players before he does leave the scene.  

 JJ has had no below par games, he has been solid to damn good all season. I'd be happy with Jean at 12 and Serfontein at 13, with JJ coming off the bench. 

But I would select Serfontein at 12 and JJ at 13 if I was Bok coach. We need to move on in the centre department

I just think that Jean is still a quality player. Serfontein can learn alot from him ,if they play together. Wouldnt put Serfontein and JJ together RIGHT NOW. But it is an option going forward. I always believe in a mix of experience and youth. I think JJ still has to learn how to read the game at centre( in terms of defence), something which can be coached.

Love him or hate him Juan De Jongh makes some good hits at very good times(kills moves off by doing spot tackling).If JJ can learn how to do this.....then he will be great. Im sure he can learn how to do this given proper coaching.

Jean and Serfontein together with JJ coming off the bench excites me as JJ can cover wing as well. With his pace and step, he will cause problems for opposition teams when he comes on. Last year he struggled, maybe he wasnt adjusting to super rugby, maybe it was other issues......

Rugby107 you have obviously missed many of JJ's games this season. He has mastered the art of rushing the line and snuffing out attacks. He does it all the time

@ Rugby 107...Jean and Serfontein together with JJ coming off the bench excites me.

No question but JJ NEVER wing.

Jean De Villiers and Serfontein without any doubt the best combo for now...the old warrior still has what it takes...no where spent at all...brings experience and tactics and strong leadership qualities. JJ has time he can wait...JDV is the stalwart...they can learn from him and the spinoff will do the youngsters mountains of good going forward into the future.

 I'd rather JJ start with Serfontein on the bench. 

Don't have a problem with that Shezza...and I'm very happy that we have Jordaan, Ebersohn,de Jongh and Swanepoel as extras...that's bloody good news...cannot understand why some men argue and bad mouth each other like some frustrated and infatuated schoolgirls over their celib idols...lol...fluck it.

As time goes by the right combos will fall into line...shit we should be over the moon with what's in reserve.

Seb, the reserve tank is alot bigger.......add de Allende, JP du Plessis and Pat Howard from the Cape, Rohan Janse v Rensburg, Frans Venter, Small-Smith and Daniel Kriel from the Bulls, Sadie from the Cheetahs and Lindeque, Whitehead and Tyler Fisher from the Sharks.

Yep Saffex...the dam is well stocked with good fish...this augurs well for the future.