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FORUM / RUGBY /  JP Pieterson for Bok outside centre, & remaining backline

JP Pieterson for Bok outside centre, & remaining backline

Started by sharkbok21 REPLIES509 VIEWS· 11 Dec 2014, 21:48
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sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,288 posts
11 Dec 2014, 21:48
#1
11 Dec 2014, 21:48#1

JP offers more at outside centre than any of the other players in SA. 

Apparently he plays outside centre for his Japanese team, as well as past experience for the Boks and Sharks at 13. 


Hopefully he is given the outside centre position for the Sharks in 2015.

He is 106KG and fast for an outside center. 

His lazy running style makes him look slow, but he is still pretty fast. 

His positional play on defense will be tested, but he offers more attacking options at outside centre.


My backline for the World Cup and preparation games in 2015.  

Its a big backline that is able to make offensive tackles, also with lots of pace on attack. Their is a good balance of distribution play makers and finishers.



9. FDP - 

Reserve Pienaar. 

FDP brings a tactical kicking game, as does Pienaar. 

FDP takes the best options out of any SA 9, like when to pass or when to run. When to pass to the forwards or the backline. (none of the Hougaard stupidity of passing to Lood foot on the touchine).  


The tactical kicking of either of these scrumhalfs will make it possible to start Pollard. (If Pollards kicking game has not improved since then). 


10. Pollard-  100KG

Goosen, Lambie reserves. 

Pollard lacks the tactical kicking game at the moment and probably the only reason he was dropped for Lambie. FDP can help in that department. 

FDP will also give him more time and options to attack. 


12. Delande -105kg 

Never got to play his preferred position for the Boks). With Jean injured he will get lots of game time for the Stormers. 

He is the strongest centre is contact in SA rugby. Closest thing we have to Jamie Roberts. 

Is also a good offloader in the tackle and has a decent distribution game


13. JP-   106 KG 

Has an offloading game in the tackle, as well as good distribution. He is a playmaker, not just a finisher. He will be one of the biggest outside centres in world rugby and he still has the pace for an outside centre  which also has to cope with lots of traffic. 


14. Habana

Highest paid wing in world rugby. Still scoring tries. He is no longer the number 1 winger in world rugby now that Savea has taken that spot. 

He has experience for the Boks at 14 and played well. 


15.Willie  

Play maker and finisher. Decent territory kicking game. Will play better with front foot ball.

Cheslin Kolbe Reserve. A few kg lighter than Wilie and probably the better defender- positional play and tackling technique. Offers a similar kicking game from the back. 


11. Senetala

Outright pace. 

The Boks score allot of tries by suffocating the opposition into mistakes, which can result in turn overs. We need a finisher outwide in the mould of the 2007 Habana.  



--------



BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
11 Dec 2014, 22:28
#2
11 Dec 2014, 22:28#2
I don't understand this fascination of Fourie du Preez. We never see him play, he is hardly ever available between injuries and club complications.
Haven't seen anything to write home about in the few games he has played either.
I fear everyone is rating him on reputation
I am busy watching Newcastle vs Stade Francais.
Thus far Morne Steyn has been charged down to concede a try kicked 1/4 and the attacking play comes from skip passes over Morne.
He did one good thing and looped a pass wide in a 3 man overlap 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Dec 2014, 00:01
#3
12 Dec 2014, 00:01#3
 Sharkbo
JP was a flop a 13 in 2012 and was replaced by Jordaan - a real no 13.  He showed one good brak for the Springboks this year agaimnst - wait for it - Scotland, for the rest he showed zero in attacking play.   In two tests  played - he made less meterage against weaker t eams than DE Allende did against Argentina.   His defense is seriously defective  and his pace is way below par - FACTS.   He is not suitable for selection. 
It seems the only thing counting for you was size and weight - not performance and skills.    
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
12 Dec 2014, 00:55
#4
12 Dec 2014, 00:55#4
Jordaan is road kill.  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Dec 2014, 01:35
#5
12 Dec 2014, 01:35#5
 Well
Jordaan was ten times better in 2012 than Pieterse was - fact.   And over the last two years Jordaan was by far - at leat 15% better in defense than any of the other 13s you favour - but he missed two tackles in two years that we all agreed was not good enough - so he is a road kill.   How many tackles did De Jongh miss in Super 15 this year - 26+ 8%.  How many did  Jordaan miss - 13%.  In 2013 he missed only 6% of attemppted tackles - De Jongh missed 23+ %.
So who is the road kill?      
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
12 Dec 2014, 02:54
#6
12 Dec 2014, 02:54#6
Every player misses tackles. The question is whether the player can't make that kind of tackle. And in Jordaan's case he is totally vulnerable to big guys who he has to tackle side on....an accident waiting to happen. 
For heaven sake in the S15 semi the situation couldn't be simpler....he had to take Reid side on, the game demanded that tackle be made....and he was run over. Can we trust him to take down Kuridrani in WC....absolutely not.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Dec 2014, 09:10
#7
12 Dec 2014, 09:10#7
 Balls again.  How did Jordaan take care of Nonu in the game ebtween the Blues and the Sharks?   Piss pot thinking on the part of Mozart - it is so that every player missed tackles - but two missed tackles in two years is not an example of the tackles routinely made by a player.   Missed tackle ratio's of over 20% is a prove of poor defense - over 25% a tackling disaster. 
Can we trust Steyn to take care of anybody in 2015 - with a missed tackle ratio of over 20%.  For heavens sake can we trust him to tackle SBW or for that matter any of the forwards carrying the ball?   Absolutely not.
Jordaan is not the isue here - Pietersen is.   His tackling record at 13 was a disaster - for the Sharks in 2012 and in the tests this year - his attacking play seriously questionable.  Both of those were issues where Jordaan comprehensively outplayed him in 2012 - and in view of his lost pace he is not even remotely acceptable in 2015. 
You are diverting the discussion again by bringing in Jordaan here,   To my mind he is about in position three when ot comess to selecion of no 13 centers - Pietersen is not in any position in my book.    
WI
Winesy83Rookie15 posts
12 Dec 2014, 11:03
#8
12 Dec 2014, 11:03#8
 I'm not a huge fan of Pietersen at 13. Maybe you're right in that it's his lazy body language that irks me. 
Of the other options:
Jordaan- Never been blown away by this guy, again he was talked up hugely. Seems decent but not aggressive enough for me yet. Has good pace and needs get the ball earlier to show his creative side. 
D.D.A- Has the size and footwork but seems like more of a 12 to me. If he's given a lot of game time there this year then great. De Villiers injury could be a blessing. 
De Jongh- I know your feelings on him Mike, personally I like that he has better footwork and finishing than any other SA centre. Distribution has always been his weakness and I know you quote missed takle stats but I believe he has a very aggressive technique. Seems to be relishing in the captains role. 
Serfontein- Again a little underwhelming so far in his senior career, doesn't boss the game physically like he did in the juniors. Obviously a talent who a lot of people see as a 12. Has all the skills yet I haven't seen him dominate a game yet.
Sadie- Has that awareness for space that the others seem to lack. Was great to watch alongside Ebersohn a couple of seasons back. Defence counts against him again but adds a spark and would be great at bringing our wingers into the game more. 
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
12 Dec 2014, 11:13
#9
12 Dec 2014, 11:13#9

You need to decide what you want in a 13, whether you want Kurindrani or Conrad Smith.


It is that simple.


If you want Kurindrani then your answer lies in JJ Engelbrecht or Damien de Allande, if you want Conrad Smith, then your answer lies in a playmaker like Jordaan.  

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
12 Dec 2014, 11:36
#10
12 Dec 2014, 11:36#10

No, that's not the correct backline......it should be

 

15. Willie 14. JP 13. JJ 12. Serfontein 11. Senatla 10. Pollard 9. Hougaard......with Reinach, Goosen/Lambie and de Allende on the bench.

 

Biltong, Jordaan is no playmaker, has average hands and not the rugby nous of Conrad Smith.......Jordaan is not physical enough for centre much like de Jongh is. Jordaan has been sorely exposed one on one at times. Fruean ran straight over him........its one thing to miss a tackle but not in that fashion.

 

If we want a Kurindrani or a Tuilagi at 13, then de Allende offers that and potentially moving man mountain Esterhuizen to 13.

 

If we are after a Fikato kind of 13 then the likes of JJ, Kobus v/Wyk and Jessie Kriel would offer that.

 

If we want a Jaque Fourie, then Stokkies Hanekom is your answer.

 

Our best bet is to have one of each in the squad and work with both JJ and de Allende at 13 but with an eye on the likes of Kriel, v/Wyk, Hanekom and Esterhuizen as 13 options.......there is plenty to work with.

 

Just watching the Oxford v Cambridge match yesterday, while a lower level, the benefit of an out and out speedster at 13 with a good step was so apparent. The Oxford 13 was a real threat with ball in hand.

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,288 posts
12 Dec 2014, 12:46
#11
12 Dec 2014, 12:46#11
Jordaan a playmaker? The same player that cant pass or catch? Comparing him to Conrad Smith is a joke. Jordaan is a finisher, not a play maker. He would be far better on the wing. 

Kurindran to JJ Engelbreght is even worse. JJ offers very little in contact. JJ is probably our best outside centre in space, and like Jordaan may be better suited to wing.
It is not that simple 
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
12 Dec 2014, 12:50
#12
12 Dec 2014, 12:50#12
Kurindrani and JJ are completely different players.......de Allende is more like Kurindrani  
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
12 Dec 2014, 13:24
#13
12 Dec 2014, 13:24#13
Kurindrani doesn't pass, he runs, that is what JJ does.
Conrad Smith runs into gaps, yes he is a more experienced players than Jordaan, but Jordaan can create gaps for his support runners 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Dec 2014, 13:28
#14
12 Dec 2014, 13:28#14
 Wind y83
Let me gt it straight - I am not writing up Jordaan as my first choise no 13.  In the ain I am saying he is not a bad players and probably the number 3 or 4 outside center in SA.   This story of Mozart and Dave is BS.   Two missed tackles over the course of two years - and harping only on those is delusionary.   In many more cases Jordaan made try-saving tackles and often enough chamged the game like he did in Super 15 this year - as happened in the Sharks - Blues Game and the Crusaders Round Robin game.
The other thing that bothers me about Jordaan is that he has over the last two years had to play outside of in the main Francois Steyn.  When playing ouside Whitehead in 2012 he was magic - no problem with any passing or catching of balls and he scored one of the best tries that year in Super 15 (ie against the Reds in the play-offs.). 
Playing outside Francoois Steyn is a huge headache.   His passing game is often enough inaccurate or passes are badly timed.   That put therecipient in a veydifficult position - hence the comments of Sharkbok - who fails to see the deficiencies of Steyn.   However, it was not only Jordaan who suffered in games playing outside of Francois Steyn - every other back playing outside of him encountered the same problems.
Lastly about Jordaan - he performed exceptionally well in the CC after Steyn was gone to Japan - which to my mind proved my point that he suffered badly playing outside of Steyn.  
The player that has been a constant disappointment for me has been De Jongh.   As you said his passing game is not up to standard - but he has been hugely disappointing when given a chance to play for the Springboks in 2012.   H came on from the game in the Aussie game in Pertoria and buggered up an excellent tryscoring opportunity.  That was followed by two very poor test performances at Murrayfield and Twickenham.   He was nowehere to be seen in either of those two matches.   I gaine the feeling that is the reason why he is off Meyer's scorecard at present.   
As to his defense - I think he tries very hard - perhaps to hard to make strong tackles and then miss too many tackles.   Missing tackles remains a serious problem at 13  and that rmeans a serious negative in my opinion.
Personally I think De Allende would be the ultimate answer at 13 - so lets wait and see what happens.       
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
12 Dec 2014, 14:12
#15
12 Dec 2014, 14:12#15
Mike it seems it is only you and I that rate Jordaan, everyone else thinks he is too small, can't catch a cold and can't pass a kidney stone.  
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
12 Dec 2014, 16:42
#16
12 Dec 2014, 16:42#16
I like Jordaan but would not play him at centre, I'd play him on the wing.  
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,288 posts
12 Dec 2014, 18:39
#17
12 Dec 2014, 18:39#17
The only thing worse than a big player with no passing skills, is a small player with no passing skills. I was "initially" optimistic about Jordaan other than his size. However when I saw his poor catching, and terrible passing I wrote him off as Springbok Material. 
I agree that he should play on the wing. He is a finisher, not a play maker. 
A playmaker must either be able to punch a hole through the midfield and offload to runners angling into space, or the brains and skills to create space. 
I think it is in general disgusting to see a professional rugby backline player that cant catch or pass well. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Dec 2014, 20:44
#18
12 Dec 2014, 20:44#18
 Sharkbok 
I think it is in general disgusting to see a member of thiss ite writing garbage like you do.

Fact is there is no evoidence that Jpordaan is either a poor catcher or passer of the ball.   It is difficult to catch balls when passes are poorly directed or mistimed - and Jordaan had the misfortune of having a player inside of him who is an epert inn both of these fields - Francois Pienaar.   I cannot remember ever that Jordaan missed a reasonable pass to him - and this is the first time I have seen an allegation of him not being able to pass.
However, I tought it wise  to look at the 2012 stats to find the reason wwhy Pietersen was replaced by Jordaan at 13 and found the following:-
Pietersen
He played for the Sharks ten games at 13 and the stats was as follows:-

Piertersen

2/0

10

9/44/66

344

5

10

12

5

58/16

0/0

4

0/0

 

 

Jordaan


He played for the Sharks six games at 13 and the stats was as follows:-


Jordaan

2/1

10

3/9/18

165

3

8

0

4

38/5

0/0

2

0/0



Evaluation


Although Jordaan played 4 gammes less than Pietersen he scored two tries - same as Pietersen - but in addition he also assisted in teh scoring of one try.


However the next column represents an importasnt aspect insofar as center play is concerned.   Pietersen handled hte ball 119 tmes dealing as follows with the ball.  He -


*   kicked the ball 7 times    =   5,88%;

*   passwed the ball 44 times   =  36,97%

*   carried the ball 66 times  himself    =  55,45%


Jordaan similar stats were as follows involving 30 carriies in the 6 games he played:-


*   kicked the ball 3 times    =   10%;

*   passed the ball  9  times   =   30% 

*   carried the ball himself    =  60%

  

However the column also indicated that  on average Pietersen handled the ball 11,7 times per game played and Jordaan 5 times per game played.   This apsect is imprtant since it reflects on the effectiveness of ball-ahndkling so lets look at the further aspects attached to performnce:-


Ball carries effectiveness


Pietersen  -  66  carries - meters gained  344  -   average gain - 5,21 meters per carry 


Jordaan   -  18  carries - meters gained  165  -   average gain - 9,17 meters per carry 


Jordaan is the more effective in this regard.


In 66 carries Pietersen made  5 line breaks beating 10 defenders


In 19 carries Jordaan made  3 line breaks beating 8 defenders 


Percentage - wise this also favours Jordaan heavily.


Defense 


Pietersen  74 attempted tackles

                58 successful

                16 missed

                Missed tackle ratio  - 21,62%


Jordaan     43 attempted tackles

                38 successful

                 5 missed

                Missed tackle ratio  - 11,63%


Pietersen was not an effective tackler at 13 - a missed tackle ratio of over 21% is totally unacceptable - since too many missed tackles in that position leads to opposition tries.   Jordaan's figure is what is really required in that regard.


Pietersens Test Performances at 13 


Despite what is written elsewhere Pietersen was not really successful at 13 - as is evidenced by the stats provided above.   To see whether there was really an improvement in the three tests he played at 13 this year I did a similar evaluation for the three test matches and the results were as follows"-



Piertersen

2/1

10

1/9/17

114

2

6

2

2

18/5

0/0

4

0/0

 

The problem with the evaluation is that the most positives occurred against the very weak Scottish side - where the try scored and the two try assists occurred.   However there are two elements to be borne in mind:-


*   There was a slight improvement in meter gains - ie from 5,21 to 6,7 meters per carry:


*   There was no improvment in his missed tackle ratio, which is way too high for a center at 13.


If the game against the Scots - where alkl players shone - is left out - the figures looks considerably worse.


CONCLUSION


In essense ther is from the above figures no indication that Jordaan is poor in ball handling.


However, Pietersen is not as effective a ball carrier at 13 as he is being touted on this site - and his defense can at best be classified as iffy - with a missed tackle ratio way too high for the team to be comfotable with.   The latter wa th problem in 2012 and was still the problem in 2014.


Incidentally Pietersen's ball carries in tests in 2014 was sunstantially below the ball carries of De Allende in his two tests against Argentina.    


The above is the reason why I have serious reservations about the performances of Pietersen at 13 and why I am not comfortable wih him in that position.



sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,288 posts
12 Dec 2014, 23:47
#19
12 Dec 2014, 23:47#19
 Ha Ha Clevermike. When I said disgusting, I meant in general to any backline player especially a centre who is not a good passer or catcher of the ball. 
I may write some garbage, but I am not the current title holder of the Willem Alberts of the year !

I have watched a good few games where I have seen Jordaan make poor passes and his catching is worse. Not upto springbok standard. He offers little in contact either. He is another JJ where he has lots of pace and a good step but does not have the hands to play at top level.
When Pieterson was playng at outside centre the Sharks had a really bad run of form. This was around the time that Plumtree learned he was no longer required. . 
JP has good hands, he has pace and he is big and effective in contact. Jordaan should move to wing. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Dec 2014, 08:04
#20
13 Dec 2014, 08:04#20
 Sharkbok
You lost it -  Pietersen played at ouside center in 2012 - not 2013.   Plumtree was fired in 2013 not 2012.   In 2012 the Sharks reached the final of the Super 15 and had to play the Chiefs at Hamilton in the final after globetrotting for 3 weeks running.
If Pietersen played in 2013 it was likely when Jordaan was injured - but even that was not regular like it was in 2012 - when he played 10 matches at 13 and the rest at 14.   
There is a huge difference in the two players - Jordaan is a thinking player and Pietersen is not.   He is in a sense like JJ Engelbrecht - runs straight at the first defender and then not effective in ball carries at 13 - as shown by distance gained per carry - while he does pass  far too few balls.   
The main problem is the defense of Pietersen at 13 - with his deficient pace he is a defensive liability.    You may say he looks like a lazy runner and thus appears to be too slow - but he is not appearing to be a slow runner -  he is a slow runner and his sojourns in Japan just adds to that problem.    On the wing he can defend easier because he has the sideline to assist him - but even on the wing he is nowadays a serious defensive risk.   
I have also seen this year ball catching deficiencies in Jordaan - but in the main he was not the problem - the real problem was Franacois Steyn - whose passes were inaccurate and badly timed at the best of tiimes.    Nobody can catch passes passed too far in frotnt of him or behind him.   
You may think that Pietersen in theory may do well at 13 - but De Allende was in fact better than him at 13 from a ball carrying perspective.   I am beginning to reach the stage where I think it is evident - he is playing onreputation - not actual performance.   That means bad news.         
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
13 Dec 2014, 08:56
#21
13 Dec 2014, 08:56#21

I am with Mike on this, I like JP Pietersen, I always have, but I think Sout African rugby need to change, and that requires players with the ability to be quick thinking, lighter on their feet and more pace.


Either your 12 or your 13 needs to be fleet of foot, quick thinking and pacier.


Late Ettienne Botha was like that,  the Bok backline needs three players that break the mould of what we have seen in the last decade of Springbok rugby, we have more well rounded fly halves now, and truth be told most of them can back Willie up at 15 as well. Now we need that same diversity in our midfield combination.


It is the only way we will break our predictable patterns.


Next we need more skilled forwards and a pacier backrow.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
13 Dec 2014, 09:44
#22
13 Dec 2014, 09:44#22
 JP is not looking good on the wing. He has to try 13 and hope for thebest there, Jordaan simply needs to ptove he has tyhe physicality for 13. Is a very dangerous player. Very much superior athlete to conrad carthhorse!! I hope Jordaan has abig 2015.
Allende is our 13 and Jan at 12. All very simply really.
Kolbe/Reinach, Pollard, Habana, Jan, Allende, Senatla and Willie,
Oaks that is a backline that shoudl be tried by Meyer. Pace to burn! Also has enough experience. Once you have booted out wee matfiled We will have a tight 5 and therefore can speed up our backrow.
Coetzee/ Kriel, Vermulen, Louw/Burger. Meyer has every option in the book.Alas he is probably on the phone trying to persuade Bakkeis, Juan Smith, Steenkamp Jaque Fourie, Fourie Du Preez etc etc to please be fit and available for the RWC.
Our only obstacle is Meyer seeing sense.  

— END OF THREAD —

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