Juan Dejong- ?

 In bok squad selections for this year I have included Dejong many times. He is a specialist center, but can cover both center positions. He even would be out of place on the wing so he offers alot. He should have started against New Zealand as he is proven player at center. In his first season he played alongside Jaque fourie and the Stormers bacline was exceptional that year. He was very good in todays game and many give him man of the match. I would give Deon Fourie man of the match, with dejong 2nd and etzbeth 3rd

Is it time to get rid of Peter Grant? He has forgotten how to pass. One of the cheer leaders could pass better than him. Grant could be killing backline play at the Stormers. 

Sharkbok

I gave an assessment of De Jongh's performance under another thread.    I think he had a good match - especially since he scored the only try today.   However, he has been a disappointment as center for the Stormers throughout the year - so I am still not sure about his effectiveness as ab attacking center.    

The problem is that De Jongh can finish off well - but that depends on other players making space for him.   He himself would never make a line break and an effective off-load in the process.   The three tries he scored for the Stormers and WP this year all came from situations created by other players where he had no defenders in front of him - in other words a clear run to the line.

On the other hand he also fluffed up a try-scoring opportunity against the Wallabies - so all-in-all I still think he is dicey as an attacking player.  His defence is good though. 

De Jongh scored an outstanding try, shown once again that hes certainly springbok material, much better than Jordaan, Taute ect. A real centre with a physical attribute as we saw with that brilliant hand off when the try was conceded. Stormers backline will potentially be on fire if Jantjies joins, Grant ruins the backlines momentum going forward. Deon Fourie and Etzebeth is the real deal!

De Jongh has centre software. He knows how to play the position.....how to bring up the defensive line.....what to do in space. Frankly Whineka missed an obvious solution here. Juan may not be a dominating 13 like O Driscoll, but he is very competent one. I have seen him carry a forward on his back for 5 metres to score a try....and he has produced devastating bursts like the one today, in tests. Not often enough perhaps, but he has the capacity .......instead we have tried to fit square pegs into round holes.

This lad is plenty big enough to be a very effective player for the Boks.

Unfortunately for de jongh and WP these flashes of brilliance happen only once or twice a season. They do not make up for the many ,many games where he does zip except defend adequately.

No De Jongh needs to take step up to the plate. His destiny is in his hands. Perhaps he is not trying hard enough most of the time.

 If he scores for the boks, he better not do that dance.

It looks really stupid. Is he pretending to ride a horse

or his neighbours girl friend?

Beeno

People tend to look only ay one or two incidents in a game and then come up with wonderful ideas/   They remember De Jongh's try today - but they forgot about the fact that he also gave away to converted penalties.   Matter of fact De Jongh is a typical example of a player that can be good and bad in the same game.

I never have had a problem with his defence.   It is on attack where he normally shows zip.   He is extremely unsuccessful in making a line break - study his games th past year and you may find less than 5 of those.   Even if he does - possession is lost in the process.   De Jongh is a 50:50 finisher.   

I will give you three examples:-

*   In the Australia test he fluffed ab excellent try scoring opportunity by getting white line fever - try to do it himself and floppd in the process.

*  Last week in the game against the Lions - Pietesen made a line break and past the ball to him.   He virtually only had the full back aheas of him - but a Lions Loosie running behind him got near enough to for an ankle-tap.   Again got white line fever - d0d not look whethr there are support playersin a better position that could score a try.

*  In all Three tries he scored this year - inclusive of the one  today - other playes created spsce that he can utilize.   He tends to die with balls and not to create space for others.

The main problem is that even when a tries line breaks it normally leads to handover of possession because of an easy exercise it is to tackle him.   You will virtually never find that looks for work outside of the number 13 position.    

If De Jongh ws    

Give it up Mike....just admit you have egg all over your kisser.

Mozart

Definitely not - De Jongh was bad throughout the year in Soper 15 and in the CC games he played in.  In all the games he scored three tries - all three when he was put into space by other players.   He also buggered up badly in the case of other potential tries.   Kindly also remember how many balls he knocked on last week in the game against the Lions;

Een swaeltjie maak nie die somer nie.   

So I guess Lionel Mapoe is also test quality as he scored a similar try against the sharks in the super rugby comp............

I was impressed with Dejongs run. He has always been more of a winger than a centre though. Good when given space to run,has a good step in open play, but cant put anyone into space,cant pass. He did well to cut Jordaan off when he rushed up, but he did miss the tackle though and on a dry field Jordaan would have been away. He also missed a tackle on JPP in open play, which he should have made according to his standards. Dejong punches well above his weight in defence though(he does get run over on the odd occasion) and nobody can fault his commitment.

A balanced review is needed,the focus cant be on the glory of one good run.

Suck it up Mike, you stated WP had no chance in the final and now ranting about De Jongh. Get real bru!

@sharkbok...it is called gangnam style. Search for it on google.

@Bok107 & clevermike.  Who whould you choose at outside center for the Boks?

Clevermike...With reference to your points above. Point no. 2: How the hell can you fail a guy due to an ankle tap? An ankle tap is normally just luck. Have you ever been ankle tapped? It is difficult to do anything when ankle tapped. Juan did the right thing and that was to go for the try.  And it would have been a try if there was no ankle tap. Yeah and sometimes loose forwards are bloody fast.  Think of Spies, Keegan, Kankowski

Point 3.  That is normally what happens when you play at 13. Your inside center or flyhalf or whoever is on your inside should be able to make the gaps for the outside center and wing. That is the basics of the game and de jongh takes the gaps easily.  If you want to see how not to play outside center, go and watch Jaco pretorius for the Bulls. he was one of  the worst outside centers I've ever seen. Conrad Smith is a good example, he can take a gap but mostly those gaps are made by the inside player.  An outside center is just as good as his inside center makes him to be.

What I see from Juan is talent. Yes he makes mistakes and some of them are due to the over exuberance of youth but with time I think he will develop in an unbelievable player if coached properly.  Unfortunately, Heyneke and the Bulls has a tendency to butcher outside centers. Jaco played well when he played for the Lions, but with the Bulls he played outside center like an inside center.  The Bulls have rarely produced fine outside centers. Andre Snyman was maybe the last one.

CleverMike also refers to his form in Super15. Like I said before an inside center makes and outside center.  Jean de Villiers was crap almost through out the Stormers campaign. He played better at the end, though.  It was also Juan's first season at outside center.  So give the guy a break for goodness sake.

Heyneke made a huge mistake playing Jaco Taute at center. Conrad Smith made him look like a baby.  If Juan was there, I think the backline would have performed much better.

And I have to agree with Linebreaker it all sounds like sour grapes to me.

 I think I need a minute to let the stupidity of Mike's comment waft over me...

Exactly Gordan, you made some good points. All this talk about De Jongh saying he can't create space for others is just ridiculous, there is absolutely no need for it if your an outside centre, the fly half or inside centre should be creating space for the outside centre who plays a more crash ball oriented play style as i stated before. Super 15 season is the past we are now focusing on current form now, De Jongh is real talent and he has progressed over the weeks and is now capable of doing well at a international level. Jordaan is not there yet.

a 13 should still create space for the players outside of him,anybody with any rugby intellect would know this. Dejong failed in every test he played in bar the wales test in 2010. He has no vision.

Jordaan as a 13 is better, Taute as a temp centre(should stick to fullback) is also better, but for heavens sake don't play JJ ahead of him. Look the province fans will love dejong, but what has he done to prove that he is a international centre?

 Would I be negative if Meyer picks him at 13? No. He is not a bad player(nothing special)  and  we had to sit with Jacobs for an entire year in 2008, then Dejong probably deserves a shot. I just don't see him making the position his own. 

At one stage Bulls fans thought wynand was a better centre than Devilliers....I see the dejong episode as the same thing, Its a insult to to compare dejong to olivier, but both lack vision.

Gordon

You make some very valid points.   Maybe I do have an attitude problem.   I hate the "dead" backline play the Springboks are playing - their backline has no attacking capacity.   they have good wings - but nothing inside of them.    I have a negative opinion of all the centers we have now had for years - and one of those is De Jongh.   As far as I am cocerned he is really poor in attacking play - hence his own atrocous record and for the Stormers and WP.    

The blame for the above is probably due to veru bad backline coaching in SA and the idea of 10 man rugby.   In Super 15 and in the tests this year - Hougaard's service to Steyn was quetionable - Steyn was bad news at no 10 - his namesakke Francois Steyn seems to believe only in crashballing without off-loading skills - De Villiers himself was bad news.  

My real question to you is - must we put up with the rubbsih - or can somnething not done about it?   I think there possibiities - but not by means of the atrtrocious player selection we have to put up with

Mike we are all grasping at the truth....sometimes right, sometimes wrong. The Sapp.....mostly wrong.

My own algorithm is that tests are vastly different, with less space and things happening much more quickly. So players need to be prepared for test rugby....and until they prove themselves at that level, we don't know if they belong. Experience matters, strength matters, pace matters, nerve matters.....vision matters.

So a player like de Villiers gets my benefit of the doubt. He ticks all the boxes and he has shown he belongs, again and again.  Fans said he had lost pace, but then we see him hauling in sprinters from behind. He still has plenty of pace. He doesn't create they say.....but three times in the RWCQF he cracked Oz wide open, only to lose his partner for pace.

De Jongh gets the benefit of the doubt because he rarely lets the team down. He needs space they say. But have you ever seen Fury beat his man in a regular line move at test level? I haven't. And de Jongh , like Aplon is a clean open field tackler.

I like Jordaan he has pace, a step and vision. He still needs experience but he is halfway there.

I think Fransie suffers from a ponderous thought process. Taute is simply not a centre and JJ can't tackle. None of these guys amount to a long term answer. Whitehead is a tidy player, but doesn't have the special element to lift him above provincial level.

So it's a mess. Our best centre is close to the end and none of the youngsters are ready or suited. It sounds negative, but it it's honest.

 "Maybe I do have an attitude problem."

Ya think?

Mozart

The Springbok backline has not functioned for three years now - and if players are selected based on the fact that they can tackle - the real question is - what are they there for?  

That means that Meyer has given up on any idea about the backline and they are really there to make up 7 players who can be added to the forwards to ensure that we have 15 players on the field.   Whether you like it or not - our backline is a collection of poor players - who have failed in the past and are continuing to fail.

Lets look at the positions in the backline as favoured by Meyer.   He started off with Hougaard as scrumhalf and when he failed badly in that position - he switched him to wing - where he was dismal.  He apparently is now back in favour - but for this tour he picked Vermaak as well.   Both Vermaak and Hougaard were dismal in the CC semi-final in wet conditions - so what will make them better in England?  Leave Pienaar out - since he is near retirement age - and the next two are failed players that has been shown up - even on CC level -  as useless are selected. 

At flyhalf he selected Morne Steyn - a player that has always been utterly predicatable and a poor link insofar as backline plauy i concerned.   Morne had one flop after another - and suddenly a new excuse popped up - the poor dear was tired out by the ,many matches he played over the past two years - accounting for his poor performance.   He then brought Goosen on board - who played less than 120 minyes in four tests before serious injury and then used Jantjies in a test where he was so poor that his fellow players eventually cut him out and did not pass balls to him.   In the meantime the best flyhalf by far - Lambie - is left to warm the bench.   I don't think Meyer likes the idea of playing him at flyhalf for some stupid reason or another - which would not have applied if Lambie had a contract to play for the Blue Bullls.   The injury to Goosen and the failure in Soweto of Jantjies - has now opened the way to go back to Steyn - since a kicking game is what is required in England.    Despite your insistence on expereience - there is postitive and negative expereience and Morne is definitely negative.

With due respect - I think that De Villiers should in fact retire from international rugby.   Insofar as I am concerned he has done nearly nothing in the past two years isofar as attacking backline play is concerned.   He lost that part of the plot completely - and has failed in the most basic requirement for backline performance - namely creative play.    I always had a high opinion of the skills of De Villiers - but whatever he was three years ago - has gone down drastically.   That was shown in the failure of the Stormers backline performances in the Super 15 this year and was carried through to the Springbok team.   I think we seriously need some new centers - who can meet requirements and develop them further - not the dud who failed us in the past and will continue with that record of failure.

Saffex answer to the 12 position is Francois Steyn - a player that has failed in the tests he played this year - is clearly overweight and slow to boot - who cannot attack the gain line and if he does and is takled - does not have a clue on off-loading a ball in tackle situations.    He started off his provincial career at full back - but when De Villiers were injired in 2007 was moved to center.   He was not been a roaring success in the WC campaign as a center - he made his name as converting one long range penalty - but his defence was iffy.   If he had one acceptable game in the Springbok team it must haver been against Mali of Chad - agaisnt all other teams his failures were a regular feature.   Everyone here is hoping for his return from injury - but is he going to be better than he was before injury or will he still be overweight, slow and useless.   Granted he has expereience - but is that enough to assure him for a place at 12?   

De Jongh is the next center.   He built up a reputation for defence only - he is absolutely clueless on attack.   A player who in 16 Super series games managed to score two tries against one of the weakest teams in the Series - is an abysmal failure as a backline player.  He suddenly becomes the flavour of the month because he scored a try in the CC final - the rest of his flops are forgotten or blames on other players.   De Jongh is small in built - in attack he is handled like a toy that can be pushed back with ease and robbed of the ball.   

Our wings are really tops - but as for the full back - another example of a useless player.

The question remains - are the above collection of poor players due to the fact that we have nothing better in SA - or are they selected because Meyer is clueless about backline play and his backline coach even worse than him?

There is no real programme for development of backline players and that deficiency is haunting us on a continual basis.   In the meanrtime some players are selected based on the fact that they played for the Springboks in the past - even if the failed dismally then arnd are continueing to fail now.

Frankly I am sick of that and can only see future failure insofar as the Springbok team is concerned.         

 Guys I am not going to say much about de Jong except this. He was immense on Defense in the final played an excellent game, made Jordaan look pedestrian and lastly that try !!!!! WOW, That is how a back runs into space and the handoff on Daniel there is only one word to describe it !!!! SCINTILATING!

to a extend the final sums up de jongh's play. can create a moment of brilliance the one moment and can self destruct the next. to be fair i really hope he can nail his position down can be more consitent in the future. he has the goods so lets hope he only builds on it