Ek, IMO Jean's running of the back-line is suspect, purely in view of the Stormers' inability to score tries. Yes, there defence is excellent, but that is where it stops. His first option is always to crash into the first defender, and he very seldomly try and run into space to create attacking opportunity. That is if he gets the ball, and it is not kicked away by Grant, like the Stormers have been doing lately.
Um, who says Frans does not have that experience - its all bullshit as far as I am concerned, much like selecting the best combinations for combinations sake. I dont buy into any of this crap. There is only one selection policy worth adopting and that is selecting the best players in each position, followed by the next best for the bench.
From these you select your leaders, goal kickers etc
Stuff selecting Jean for the sake of experience and organisational skills. A better player needs to step up and take on that responsibility - look no further than Frans
As an example for the selection of a team only on performance alone (and with that i am not saying it is such a bad thing, I am just pointing out the ovious) Look at the bok Tri nations touring squad from last year. They decided on selcting young players, these players where very good individually in their positions and had the opportunuty to play for a bok spot. Nobody to rule the roost, or organise the systems it becomes loose and unmanageable. On if Frans has the ability to organise the systems, I won't know, I have not seen him do it.
Wrong the players selected by PDV were not the best youngsters, he messed that up. As I said, you always pick you best players. You NEVER select for sake of experience or organisational skills - NEVER - you select the best player and Jean is not one of the two best centres in the country any longer
SAFFEX - do you really whatch every game - or are you just repeating the same mantra over and over again. Jean is slow and is past it. Have you seen any games played by Steyn in France. Steyn is very strong - but never the fastest player around. he had some good games in France - but has not played in Super 15 for a while. To pick him is a dangerous move - except if you balance out the situation by putting an expreienced player like Jean to support him.
Mozart - you know how to stir up the brain boxes on the site - nice reading your comments - although I do not always agree with you. I think Jantjies went a bit backwards this year - and he has very, very strong opposition from players like Goosen, Lambie and Grant - so i doubt whether he would become our flyhalf of the future. Taute is another issue. I am a Taute fan and would like to see him in the team sooner rather than later. Maybe if Steyn does not produce the goods - Taute would come into the picture.
Well Dave was absolutely convinced at the beginnining of the season that Sadi was the man to take the Bok 13 jersey. Before that he was convinced Murray was the next 13. Now, conveniently, he doesn't mention them.....they flopped at the next hurdle.
Taute is the kind of straight, hard running player that gets gobbled up in tests. A few of those bull like charges isolating himself and the resultant turnovers.....and we will be calling for experience.
De Jongh will outplay Taute head to head.....but of course he is "too small".
Hey Moz valid points there on Taute, however he really is not a bad option. But as we have i think mostly come to the conclusion that yes If Frans plays inside, they will need Jean's experience outside him. So with that in mind. Juan or Meisiekind will most probably be on the bench as they seem to be the one's left with experience in both positions. This means that all the arguments for anyone else goes out the Door as Heynecke will not be too experimental here. All arguments for JP, Eberson, Taute, Whitehead and anyone else included in the party is irrelevant because of that. And there is nothing wrong with trying to mainatian the stability as long as there is a long term plan.
Moz, you are a master at making up my points of view. I have never said Sadie was in close contention for a Bok spot. I had him as a prospect down the pecking oder and conceded on a number of occasions recently that he has disappointed in his outings for the Bulls. I originally had my 13 pecking order as JP, Taute, JJ and Sadie - how does that equate to Sadie as my Bok 13.
You also very clearly know that while Murray was about, Fourie was always my first choice 13.
My guess is Moz, you wont answer these points as you know you are making this shit up??
As for Taute, if you had been watching his last 2 matches you certainly would not be telling us Taute only runs straight - clearly you have not watched him lately, not that he ever was about running straight. We saw the step and swerve a few years back when he played for the Baby Boks
Dave at the "beginning of the season"......JP, Taute and JJ were playing other positions and weren't even being spoken about as 13s. So your list is a figment of your imagination.......Sadi was your man.
Ek....the idea here is not to stick with players past their sell dates. But Jean has been in the 365 Team of the Week twice and also bubbling under. He was our best back in the RWC QF......he has shown no decline in his powers.
Fransie, likewise, was excellent against Wales
Olivier has failed every time he was elevated to Bok rugby.....de Jongh by contrast has never let the side down.
So for me the choice is easy....Frans 12, Jean 13....de Jongh on the bench.
None of the youngsters have made a sustained case for inclusion....they have their moments and then they make mistakes. Can we imagine Taute at this stage making the AB team? No way, in NZ you serve a proper apprenticeship.
@Ek. Why would Frans Steyn need JDV's experience on his outside? Frans Steyn is himself at this stage, despite being only 24, a RWC veteran, having played in two RWC's already. He has played more RWC games than JDV if I am not mistaken. I cannot see how a player with 47 Springbok caps, 38 Super Rugby caps and 18 Currie Cup caps, as well as 16 caps for Racing Metro, would need an "experienced" outside centre next to him.
Agreed on your picks, however i need to put something into the Argument regarding Meisiekind, I have never been a real fan, however what is fai is fair and needs to be said. He has never really had the opportunity to show what he can do at test level with a decent run. Taking that into account though I will give Juan the benefit of the doubt here and pick him on the bench. But we need to make peace with the fact, Meisiekind will be in the squad, as he is not playing badly, and is one of our better centre currently in the competition, plus he has some experience. So our 4 centres in the squad will be the four. That is if frans makes it.
@Ek, I know the next post would probaly be Mozart jumping in and remind us how Wynand has only ever scored one test try and how he was shown up in this, that or the other test etc,etc,etc, and he can bleat as much as he like, but Wynand Olivier has been playing some good rugby this year, as he has done last year and the year before. He is instrumental in most of the Bulls tries and he there is nothing wrong with his defence. IMO, the Bulls back-line is much better organised than that of his beloved Stormers at this stage, hence their try scoring ability. Yes, they do also let tries through, but they are an attacking side, scoring at just less than four tries per game on average. They certainly would not have been able to do that if the had a useless, turnstile defender who cannot buy a try, at no 12.
"@Ek. Why would Frans Steyn need JDV's experience on his outside? Frans Steyn is himself at this stage, despite being only 24, a RWC veteran, having played in two RWC's already. He has played more RWC games than JDV if I am not mistaken. I cannot see how a player with 47 Springbok caps, 38 Super Rugby caps and 18 Currie Cup caps, as well as 16 caps for Racing Metro, would need an "experienced" outside centre next to him."
Sorry missed that one, the reason is obvious. Until Frans can prove that he can take the leadership and manage the backline he will need someone in there to do it. Not because he is frans, just because there is no one else Jean is the only candidate. Added you just mentioned Wynand, and correctly he might also not be a bad choice at 13, however no matter who you pick where you will need to pick a player that has experience in managing a backline there, Given Meisiekind does not do a bad job at the bulls. but will he be better than jean is the question.
That comes back to my question. How well is JDV really managing the Stormers' back-line.....................?
Sorry EK.....I can't let that go. Wynand hasn't had a decent "run" because he flops when given a chance. And unlike most players, he has had chance after chance. In the Lions series for example he was given the 12 berth in the low pressure third test......but he flopped big time.
Firstly he was run over by Heaslip....he was the Bok who failed to shackle him as this passage records:
"TRY! Lions strike - Heaslip is away and the Boks fail to shackle him. He manages to offload to Shane Williams who scuttles over. Not forward as the Boks claim. Excellent try."
And then the lowly Flutie man handled him.....
"Du Preez goes left quickly to Olivier who is dumped on his backside by Flutey and the Lions get the penalty for for him Olivier holding on.
...and Wynand's man Flutie gassed him to the ball, flipping it to Shane Williams for a try.
And he was intercepted for the third Lions try. Here's the clip......http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3dc1iU1TG0&feature=relmfu.......watch from minute 50 and you'll see Kirchner botching a try. But we are still in the game and pressing. Then Wynand throws the interception and the Lions score from 90 metres. Game over!
Having a big hand in all three Lions tries has to be some kind of record.
Valid Question, also
How much of the stormers backline decisions are based on what the coach says and keeping inside the systems?
So there is no answer to that question unless you have inside information, we only know that he is one of the few backs that has the ability and experience.
I see your point on Moz and Wynand :)
Actually I have never said Wynand can't defend. What I have said is he can't defend acceleration. Giteau gassed him to the outside. Quade Cooper did the same thing.
Wynand is a perfectly serviceable S15 centre. His durability suits the long slog of a S15 camapign. But put him in tests where the best players are at full effort and he is simply lost. My point is not based on provincialism as Ceradyne implies, it's based on what's best for the Boks.
Do watch a bit of the Lions test and the three tries in particular to see my point.
Hehe, yeah Moz asI have said I have never been a meisiekind fan, mostly i think because he came inEttiene Botha's place, and that guys was one of my favourites, so there is no way thst he can match up :) Anycase If he is the best he should go, and if he is playing like he currently is he will make the squad, That i don't doubt.
Rubbish Moz, the only time Sadie featured on my list was when JP and JJ were playing 13. Taute has mostly been a 13 and i was asking for him to be considered there a season or two ago.
I have NEVER selected Sadie as my Bok 13 and that is a fact
Lies....with no sex and no video tape.
The only liar on here is you and you know it. Find a single post on here that has me selecting Sadie at 13 for the Boks - you are a bloody joke the way you fabricate when it comes to me - one would swear it carries weight, but be my guest and provide some evidence of me selecting Sadie as the Bok 13, much like me selecting Murray as the Bok 13 - look in the mirror old boy, when it comes to lies.
Take your time, the search should be a long one!!
Dave you might have noticed the oldest string on this site was started in May. If you think that equates to the beginning of the season when you were calling for Sadi, you have another problem.
This is getting a little cumbersome....let's start again under the Sapp unfrocked. These bold challenges deserve a fresh audience.
