Just one question - are we being realistic and fair?

For the past two months virtually everyone on the Board was writing about Goosen as the Bok flyhalf - but now that Meyer has in fact caved in to public pressure included him in the squad, we are bleating about him being selected - saying that his inclusion in the squad is premature.as he has not played enough rugby after returning from injury.

To be fair ; Question - are we being fatr in this case or are we acting like prima donnas?   In other words - whatever Meyer is doing - will he ever not be condemned?   Poor guy - he is always criticized - but when he gave in to public pressure - he gets criticied again.

Let me go one further and say - Goosen is a class act.   He may be a bit rusty now - but that would be eliminated sooner than one think.   He needs to get an initial feel what is expeced of him by the coach - it may work out or it may not.   He is not an automatic kicker like Morne Steyn and could ultimately not fit into the team - but I believe otherwise and cannot see Morne Steyn surviving to the home tests in the Championship - if we fail (as expected) in the away matches.- Goosen will have to be ready and able to take over.

Well done Mike for partially owning up, in a pretty oblique manner, to your constant critisims of Meyer. Clearly your conscience is pricking you but I have my doubts whether muncher and ragtad will have simliar scruples! Hahahahahahahaha.

As for Meyer he is not bowing to pressure he is actually bucking the advice of the experts and coaches - showing he has independence of mind perhaps.

The fact is that Goosen is not ready.Meyer may have him on the bench and give him a few minutes or he may just have him around to introduce him to Bok rugby etc. Meyer is unlikely to start with Goosen.

You also err greatly if you think Meyer is only about kicking - as I have pointed out before - Meyer's bulle played some very entertaining running rugby. Meyer - unlike some - nevertheles puts a premium of good tactical kicking that is accurately executed- as would any savvy coach.

Beeno's rugby 101 lessons for not-so-clever-mike, munched, ragtad and saSUE continue.

By the way muncher those strugglng fellow students of yours at the cape rugby academy you claim to attend - invite them here and they can also enroll on my course for beginners! Bwahahahhahahahahahaha

Beentwit,

Thats pretty easy to answer your question afterall I answered what I thought about Goosen's inclsuion in an earlier post.

However I will be honest as it does kind of sit on the fence nonethelesss, I did state that I am happy with his inclusion but had two trains of thoughts:

1 - what have we got to lose by putting him in and seeing where he sits

2 - concern that the likes of Carter/Cooper will carve him up and the MacCaws/Messams - Pococks/Higginbottoms will target him

I also stated that we not expect a lot from him as it was unfair to do so from one back from injury.

@Mike,

I think it was more a shock that HM has included Goosen rather than any thing else as I certainly wasn't expecting him to be included along with Vermuelen. But if he's there and included on the 22 then we may as well blood him and see what happens?

Beeno

You never read things properlyand then comes up with funny comments. Who is th coaches and experts advising Meyer? Don,t even mention his backline coach and his forward coach acting as the attacking coach s experts who can advise him on anything.   He is fully right about bucking their advice.   

Under another thread I wrote extensively aboout Meyer's problems as a coach.   I am always fair and reasonable in my assessments and I do not live in cloud cuckoo land like some other people.    If Meyer's sole strategy is not "kick and chase" why does he not come out openly and say so - and not mess around with development of the kicking skills of Steyn and Hougaard only?   His main problem is his utterances - he needs to up his PR a heck of a lot. 

However, nobody answers a critical question - where has  Erasmus gone to? 

"I think it was more a shock that HM has included Goosen rather than any thing else as I certainly wasn't expecting him to be included along with Vermuelen."

What BS. Meyer has always said that he rated Goosen, and he has also expressed his disappointment when he got injured, and the same goes for Duane Vermeuelen. It would have been a schock if he left them out, after their recovery and rehab.

Poor old Vlug. Still preaching from the Bools prayer book. At this stage of his career, after a serious injury, playing Goosen against either NZ or OZ is right up there with the Gaffie mistake. HM is feeling the heat.

@clevermike,

that almost seems to be the case, but the general concensus from the posters here was that while goosen is a class talent, the reality of his situation at the moment would make his inclusion to Boks a premature decision considering his return to injury and what not. vermeulen is in the same boat, but to a lesser extent.

IMO meyer is filthy as regardless of how his tenure as Bok coach pans out, he has the worst record against the pumas thanks to that draw, something even PDV didnt do,
goosens selction is a token gesture for the public that meyer isnt sitting on his ass doing nothing, but if he picks goosen for any test, even on the bench, then IMO, meyer thinks that the shit has hit the fans and its all Bok hands on deck.

Moz one cant be sure Goosen will play or if so for how long but he is there to learn the calls etc etc.

One could argue he may have been better of playing Currie Cup but that is a debatable one.

If Meyer is so heat conscious where is the sharks captain Keegan Daniel? Many a delusional bok fan still thinks he is the main man for our loose forward trio. Keegan , would have whipped those Argies real good if only Meyer had had the sense to bring him on earlier!! Hahahahahaha

@ceradyne,

"What BS. Meyer has always said that he rated Goosen, and he has also expressed his disappointment when he got injured, and the same goes for Duane Vermeuelen. It would have been a schock if he left them out, after their recovery and rehab."

Rating him - WTF we all rate him!!! That wasn't the intent of the message. This boy is our future but lets use some commonsense first before we ask him to perform miracles and turn our backline around.

Expecting a 19 year old to be thrust into a test match against the Wobblies and ABs on their home turf and expecting him to deliver what we want is either stupidity or insanity? This young guy has had half a season in Super15 and come back from a serious injury with limited game time we need to be fair to him.

Dont get me wrong here I want to see him as much as anyone else and part of me really wants me to see him play a part in the series.

However, recovered yes, ready well unsure how to judge that other than to say that logic says that after a major injury that you progress incrementally to a stage where you are conditioned to apply your trade at the level you can perform at your best? 

But not in SA we breed superhumans and power packs that are conditioned hulks. We never get injuries. We also never learn any frekin lessons from times past!

mozart

Status: Senior player
Posts: 1250 RE: Just one question - are we being realistic and fair?
August 31, 2012, 10:05:34

Poor old Vlug. Still preaching from the Bools prayer book. At this stage of his career, after a serious injury, playing Goosen against either NZ or OZ is right up there with the Gaffie mistake. HM is feeling the heat.

The team has been announced?

radtad1

Status: Squad member
Posts: 165 RE: Just one question - are we being realistic and fair?
August 31, 2012, 13:27:03

@ceradyne,

 Expecting a 19 year old to be thrust into a test match against the Wobblies and ABs on their home turf and expecting him to deliver what we want is either stupidity or insanity? This young guy has had half a season in Super15 and come back from a serious injury with limited game time we need to be fair to him.

Dont get me wrong here I want to see him as much as anyone else and part of me really wants me to see him play a part in the series.

However, recovered yes, ready well unsure how to judge that other than to say that logic says that after a major injury that you progress incrementally to a stage where you are conditioned to apply your trade at the level you can perform at your best? 

But not in SA we breed superhumans and power packs that are conditioned hulks. We never get injuries. We also never learn any frekin lessons from times past!

As they say. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. He has to be in. No, he should not be in. Have you read Meyer's announcement at all? I could ask you the same question I asked Moz: "The team has been anounced?"

@ beeno i will entertain your lower normal IQ and blantant lacking sense of humour.

i dont teach i learn you manchild. i would send a invite out on your behalf but alas i think your restraining order for not being in the area of 100 from any young boy might be a huge area of concern.

the world is cathing up to you catholic style "BOYerism"

to the rest of the normal adults on this formum lets face it its a tough decision to make. i doubt goosen will play as i said i would have picked him and just kept him in the squad to learn for the older members and maybe slot lambie in in front of morne. it all depends on how he will respond on the day. i doubt if the likes of cooper can carve him up though. he has played against them this season i played very well. its more a case of him playing his style and to that i doubt HM will change his game pattern.

if goosen is going to play a kicking game it wont be a major benefit of having him in the team in the first place. reason being then the selection does not compliment the tacttcs. its a bit of a toss up. i do feel they will perform a lot better with a opensider in the team so that in turn will have the knockon effect of more ball ext ext. so we wont see the ragged game against the pumas.

if goosen is picked the playing pattern needs to change to allow him to play him game. we dont want die locks and flanks as first receiver ext disrupting the ball flow (i know beeno pleasures himself when he sees a lock at first 5/8 running as a flyhalf) but for th rest of us "normal" people we want the flyhalf to be the centeral dicision maker.

i do feel goosen can do the job but then he needs to enviroment to perform to  his abiltys.

beeno i will entertain your lower normal IQ and blantant lacking sense of humour.

'i do feel goosen can do the job but then he needs to enviroment to perform to  his abiltys.

munched its a bit early in the day to be sloshed?

@clever mike your orginal post was objective as always..its a tough call really. morne's poor form over more than a year and the meteroic rise of goosen has people asking for a fresh approach. just shows how fed up people are of the preastoric method of playing rugby. its so bad that people want a 19 year old to be picked in a effort of trying to get rid of this sterile way of playing rugby. can he make it work...i think he can. if the likes of pienaar and franna is there so support him the whole process can be a lot better for him.

for the cavemen of the world namely no cups coetzee and his astranged boylover (beeno) they seem to gravitate towards thought less rugby and being as creative as polar bear maing a number 2 on a piece of floating ice.

@ceradyne,

"As they say. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. He has to be in. No, he should not be in. Have you read Meyer's announcement at all? I could ask you the same question I asked Moz: "The team has been anounced?"

Whether the squad has been announced has nothing to do with who will be in the playing 22. If Goosen gets in the playing day squad then he will no doubt get some game time, even if it is 5 minutes. The value to Goosen being simply in the travelling squad bodes well for his inclusiuon into the run on team.

Nonetheless you do wonder if 160 minutes in the CC would have been better mentally and physically for him as well as increase his confidence levels prior to the home tests and EOYT?

"Damned if you do damned if you dont" does mean we are starting to grasp at straws already but as Mike said in the heading of the post "are we being fair or realistic". However, if we are having this attitude then we are not in a good position or situation with the state of our game. 

This game brings out many emotions to us as supporters and we often see things that we disagree with how the Boks are coached...Ask beentwit he disagrees with everything.

Is Goosen in too early - unequivocley - 'YES" do we care "NO" are we excited about his inclusion? Absolutely!! Do we think he will make or be given a chance? HIghly unlikely!

I also want to make a comment on what mike stated about whether we are being prima donnas and being harsh on HM. Mike absolutely we are! But not so much as being critical for just being critical.

HM is the mouthpiece, coach, mentor, tactician and holds not only the responsibility of the success of the Boks but he alone is accountable for every win, draw and loss we bear. His previous success has probably been the reason we have had higher expectations as everything pointed prior to HM being a positive step.

If you watched the intensity and pressure and anguish that was coming from his body language and him screaming on his mic everytime the camera zoomed to the coaching box during the Argie test gave you an idea of how much pressure he puts on himself but more importantly the expectations of the nation on his shoulders.

@beeno yeah mate i was still sloshed.....me and your mum went for cocktails mate.