MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
10 Dec 2014, 16:13#2
Geez didn't you get the message Corn, Stepfontein without Jean there holding his hand, is magically going to morph into a great player.
10 Dec 2014, 17:52#4
Hmmm, not sure how to take Saffex comments. Agree that Jean and Jacque were probably not in the springboks best interested, but looking at what Meyer has now left and that he doesn't have a decent combination. My questions is what should he do to make sure that the springboks are covered in midfield.
The list that you have created saffex, none of these guys will be ready come world cup
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
10 Dec 2014, 17:55#5
We don't have one proven international centre.....and centre dominance is a big part of RWC performance. I have no doubt it's HM's biggest concern.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
10 Dec 2014, 20:37#7
Meyer has painted himself into a corner with his center selections. His first combination was Francois Steyn and Jean de Villiers - not very successful since Steyn flopped and De Villiers is a better 12 than 13. Since thn he has stuck with De Villiers - and if he is not available - with Serfontein.
Insofar as no 12 center is concerned he has flopped around amazingly - playing no less than 9 players in that position. Of those
* Taute was not successful - being a full back moved to center to fill an injury gap fro t he Lions - he essentiallyis a full back - not a centr
* De Jongh failed badly in two tests (Twickenham and Murrayfield) i 2012 when he effectively went AWOL;
* JJ Engelbrecht - despite some defense question marks inititally - hewas undr-par in attacking play - tends to run straaight at the first defnder and not veryeffective at that.
* Jacque Fourie - solid in deefense - a serious flop in the other components of the game - too pace-deficient to be a real no 13
* Serfotein - verysound in defnse - but is essentially a 12 and not as effective as he should be. Problem is the Springboks played with two no 12 centers with the same playing stykle this year - consequently not very effective.
* De Allende - never played at 13 befor ehe started at 13 in the first Argentine test - he initially had some defensive problems - but showed some good ball carries gaining more meters in two games than any of the other centers have done in two tests during th past three years. Need more experience in the no 13 jersey though.
I think that the situation is as follows:-
No 12 Center
There are in fact two serious contenders -
Serfontein and De Allende
Ther are a lot of names tossed around - one being Francois Steyn. The latter was a serious flop at 12 for the Sharks with a serious disruptive problem in the Sharks backline. His defense was sub-par and he was the only Super 15 center who nevr made a line break in nearly 20 months playing for the Sharks. To put him in that ppposition would disrupt backline play in the same way he disrupted backline play for the Sharks this year.
No 13
Meyer's selection strategy - or his lack of a strategy - cretaed havoc in that position. Ibnstead of identifying a potential candidate abd try and deveop a candidate to full potential - he was floundering along.
The best way out would be to see whther he can develop De Allende into a viable no 13. Pietersen was not effective at 13 - when playing for the Sharksin 2012 and did not show much in that position this year. There is a major negative as well - Pietersen over th e past two years lost pace alarmingly. As a result hi defnse i very questionable in the 13 pposition. He has really shown deficient adjusment to play at 13.
Essentially he may be tempted to bring back Engelbrecht and could do worse by bringing back players like De Jongh and Taute.
The better players to fall back on are Jordaan, Hanekom and Sadie.
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
10 Dec 2014, 20:46#8
Meyer should stop playing wings and 12s at 13 and rather opt for the best real 13 available. That would already improve things exponentially.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
10 Dec 2014, 21:25#9
Mike you are speaking utter horse shit in particular your take on JJ with ball in hand. Go watch his test highlights for 2013 on YouTube and come back and tell me he runs straight or offers nothing in attack. What utter c rap
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Dec 2014, 06:37#10
Dave
With all due respect - I have watched JJ in all tests and on Super 15 level and he was rarely effective in attacking play. He very seldomly is able to break tackles and that is what is a negative about his performances as an attacking player.
When put into space by others he looks good because of his pace - but that is also very rare. I would not say that JJ is a particulalry good attacking center.
11 Dec 2014, 08:46#11
Here is our problem. We don't have a decent 13 in South Africa at the moment! End of story! We have plenty of good, but not brilliant 12's!
When De Villiers and Fourie were in their prime, we had a very strong center pairing, but those days are long gone, and we have not had a proper 13 since!
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Dec 2014, 09:53#12
B luebok
I know there are two elements involved - namely physicality and ball sense and skills - but I sincereley beleivedthat Meyer was floundering around too much in respect of a 13. The fact is he never played most of the 13's for only two matches and then moved on without really finding a player he could select.
The longest surviving 13 was Serontein - but it has been obvious from the start that at 13 Serfontein is a square peg in a pound hole. The other two who survived the two test syndrome of Meyer was JJ and Fourie. I would not call JJ the best center propect available - and Fourie was good in defense - when he could get to the ball handler - but absolutely useless in anything else.
Instead of constantly floundering around - hoping for a miracle - should have identified the top five candidates and study their performances and see what they could produce and what their deficiencies were. He should have put those five players through a special training programme to improve their skills and then from their identified potential candidates who could be given test experienc.
He did nothing of the sort and his selections at 13 showed that. There were two problems - he enver looked at 13's and the number of 12's and 14's used include that. Even Engelbrecht is basically still playing the wing game and has not really adjusted to 13. Same with JP Pietersen. The 12's playing at 13 - who showed limits in performnce at 13 and were in fact to some extent questionable made up virtually all of those.
I am afrid the floundering around and Meyer's endency to invest in previous players like Jacque Fourie - withou really studyg their present performances - kalanded us in the stiuation where there is still serious doubts aboutwho to select at 13.
Among the players who have started off and regulalry played at 13 - there has only been 4 - namely Sadie, Ebersohn, Hanekom, Jordaan and De Jongh.
* Sadie showed a lot of natural talent after departure from the Bulls - a sound defender and a good playmaker - he is one of the candidates to consider.
* Hanekom was very good for the Lions on CC level - also a natural 13 and a playmaker. Definitely a player to look at.
* Jordaan had the misfortune in 2013 and 2014 playing ourtside of Francois Steyn - a habitual detroyer of backline play by his endency to kick away balls he should pass and his crashballing. However, Jordaan has shown that he has ball skills and has done well enough despite the handicap.
* De Jongh is not a playmaker and his ability to create space for himself borders on the non-existent - same as his passing game. He is basically a good finisher - but has been seriously defective in the 2012 tests he played in and his defense at 13 has always been questionable and sub-par.
I think the answer basically is to watch out in Super 15 for the best performers from the above 4 and also look at De Allende - if the Stormers - as promised play him at 13 - and from those players identify to top candidate and then tr y them out in the RC in Hune next year.
However, the situation looks bleak and is entirely due to Meyer's indecisiveness in what to do with the 13 position.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
11 Dec 2014, 15:25#13
No the situation looks bleak because we have no centres....HM can't create them. Worst crop I can ever remember.
11 Dec 2014, 17:21#16
I just think that our current centers are lacking some serious distribution skills and are mainly used for bashing the ball up. Serfontein showed that he can be a great play maker just looking back at his games for the boks, but since playing seniour rugby he has mainly been used as a battering ram which we now know him by stepfontein.
De Allende showed that he is the only center in SA that breaks the line and that can offload in tight spaces.
We have no real 13 in SA. I like Jordaan but his hands is terrible and so is his passing.
I use to like de jongh but he just kills any backline moves.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Dec 2014, 17:25#17
Biltongbek
I definitely rate Engelbrecht higher than useless Jacque Fourie - but was in Super 15 over the past two years not overawed by Engelbrecht. However, I think that if he can do well in the next Super 15 he would really go up in my estimation.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Dec 2014, 17:28#18
Mozart
We may not have the top 13 in the world - but there are talented players who will not let us down. The problem remains Meyer's ckluelss floundering around and not getting the centers space to develop through proper coaching and gaoining of experience. This comes of always at critical times going backwards to the pas t - Meyer's favourite move when hefeels he is under pressure. Fourie was a seriously bad mov e. .
12 Dec 2014, 14:24#20
Saffex, we need you to coach some of the super rugby teams!!! That's where the problem lies.
I just think that we are going to struggle with a small 13 playing test rugby.
If you look at the size of guys for the top teams, but then again it could just be down to technique in the tackle.
New Zealand has used
The smaller guys are around 1.86 average and between 95kg and 100kg
Then you have the bigger guys that are really hard to pull down.
At the end of the day its down to the coach of how he wants to use the backline, but I always thought that 13's were people to break the line and create confusion and not merely just passing the ball to the wing.
