Meyer says he is focused on breakdown and backline play

Check out article on main page of site - Meyer is right on the money in my mind. He obviously learnt his lesson with the turnaround in fortune that Flouw's inclusion brought to the Boks and recognizes the need for an attacking backline. He appears to have been doing his homework as well - no one has ever said this guy was not a hard worker and maybe, just maybe he is a lot smarter and open minded than he it protrayed

I for one am very optimistic about this years Bok season.

Some highlights:

""South Africa is lagging far behind the rest of the world in breakdown play and very soon I'll be doing a presentation to SA Rugby and the coaches with the view to showing them how we can improve,"  (Have to think that he has his fingers crossed hoping Brussouw returns to his form of yesteryear)

"I also feel that our backline play has not developed as much as it should and I hope to share some ideas with the franchise coaches. It's something that we have already addressed I have seen an improvement, but we have some very good backline players who could do much better."

"Pieter-Steph du Toit is a player with world-class potential and he has the ability to become a world great."

""This is the best I have ever prepared a team, we have had coaching camps and I have been all over the world studying teams.

              
"Over the last three or four months we have looked at everything, we have been through every single breakdown."

I'm optimistic too and I hope all this doom and gloom has lightened slightly and people will give Meyer a chance to develop. He was out of rugby for 2 years before the Boks and only reverted to his kick chase gameplan because its was very successful for the Bulls ans was the only strategy he knew as he didn't have time to develop a more modern passage of play. Now he has time I'm looking forward to this year :)

Why are we punished so badly by having a dolt as the Springbok coach?   This is really amazing.   We really are lagging years behind the rest of the world insofar as backline play is concerned - but here we have a wonderful coach that said all our problems will be solved if we can improve breakdown play.   He spoke to the coaches about backline play and there were signs of improvement.  That is as far as he has gone with that component of the problem.   That apparently did not help at all.   The backline performances of the Sharks have gone backwards - the Bulls have been static and the Stormers have been chaotic.  So what signs of improvement has he seen.   Our teams are scoring less tries than the other Super 15 teams are scoring and the defence of some teams have deteriorated markedly(eg the Stormer) - but he has seen some improvement - Blaas my siel.  

What is Meyer's perception of backline play?   Crashballing and then recovring the ball at the resultant breakdown?  Forward inch by inch and we may get to the opposition 22 in half an hour.   Or kick and hope the opposition return kick is not casuing the Springboks to lose territory.  Or better still - hoping the oppsoition will not counter-attack.

Instead of doing a presentation on this malady to SARU and getting technical advisors to assist in this component of the game - he "spoke to the franchise coaches".   Apparently Drotske listened and then said nothing further - because he did not change the teams playing style at all and muttered about the fact that he does not know what Meyer's gamme plan entials.  And the others went ahead with the same rubbish they dished up week after week.

I really was amazed also what became clear when he selected his training squad.  Bugger the form of players he is going into the test series with the squad he took overseas last year plus a  few players that was out with injuries.  The next surprise would probably be that the next  training group will include the foreign  players he called up last year as well.

Forget the form the players showed in Super 15 - it counts for nothing.  He bluffed us all by saying he was going to call up further players for another two training sessions - but it now transpired that his test selection is to be from this group and the others will have no show whatsoever - unless some of favoured players are injured. .

This man is really trying to say that look we won the EOYT matches - bugger the way in which the teams performed and the atrocious performance in the relevant tests.   The rubbish that was dished up against the poor Irish and Scottish teams were unbelievable and Meyer thinks that is going to help us through the Championship.

We all felt sorry for the contrite Meyer that said he made selection errors last year - and now he came up with the same selections.   It is only a donkey or dolt  that learns nothing from the past and keep doing the same rubbish over and over again.

I think the Aussies and Kiwis must be laughing all the way to the Bank - the way is clear to play the fool with this half-baked lot and the dunce we have as a coach.

AFTER READING THIS STATEMENT - I WANT TO REPEAT THE QUESTION - WHAT SINS HAVE WE RUGBY-LOVERS COMMITTED TO BE PUNISHED LIKE THIS??????? 

ou maaaikie has finally cracked up. Mike, Meyer wants to concentrate on backline play as well as break downs - read the rticle again. Further more he knows like I said that the franchises must also improve in these aspects.

Why in the world are you so pessimistis. Take your St John Wort and have a good nights rest and you will feel better in the morning.

Meyer is a fine coach and will set the ship right. Reading this article enforces that view.  

mike where do you get the idea that this is the final squad?

Beeno

I changed my comments after I read again the statement of Meyer and what was also on News 24.  he clearly said the test players will be selected from this squad and other players may come in later.

I am really cracked up as you say - the man must think all rugby lovers are idiots.  I think that this lot is bound to fail - because of what this dinosaur coach - that has not seen that his style of play has been eliminated by foreign teams because it is inefficient and not producing results. 

What rubbish we have to put up with. 

Beeno

Fine coach - yes fine the bugger and then fire him - and get a decent coach.  

Fine performances by the SA Franchises - with the Sharks in position 3 - purely as a result fo the conference system, otherwise they would be in position 6 and the rest somewhere between 7 and 12 on the log.  Yes there was improvement - buit that improvement was by the sides that Meyer ignored in his team selection - the rest went into reverse gear.

 Mike he is a far better coach than White, Plumtree and Naka! You think his involvement with the franchises has been extensive? He's more than likely just had a few meetings with them to chat, he hasn't changed the way they play otherwise what's the point in Plumtree and co leading the Sharks and Stormers etc? You expect far too much too quickly but the thing is you have no reason to.

Shezza

With respect - I believe the karma is all bad - I have seen Meyer and heard him speak often enough and whatever comes out is rubbish,   I have also seen how the Springboks struggled against the lowly-rated Scottish and Irish teams - and played with 14 players against the English because one of Meyer's selections went AWOL.

If there is indeed a crisis in SA rugby it is the dead backline syndrome.   If Meyer can do a presentation on the issue of breakdowns and get their support in getting specialists to deal with the issue - why not do the same in respect of backline play?   If he did the last I would have shouted my support for him despite all his buggered selections of last year.  But backline play centers around the flyhalf and Morne is back in kicking form - so Meyer is happy - backline performance has improved from last year - and now it is the turn of Lambie to prove that his kicking game is up to Mornes standard.   Try as he might - Steyn will be the flyhalf - and all Lambie's efforts to be favoured by Meyer is gone.  

What Maaik is saying in essence and in a nutshell is talk is cheap...seeing is believing. Sounds like a politician's promises before an election. OK lets give him one more chance but like Mike I'm not convinced that much will change and no he is definately not as good as Jake White...do you really think if HM took on a bedraggled side like the Brumbies were under that aged hippy coach the Brumbies had before and turned them into a possible contender, he could do the same and even better...balls...never...he battles with the best selection in the world.

 Mike - with all due respect I have witnessed the achievements that warrant Meyer's position as the Coach of the Springboks.

If HM's so kicking orientated then please explain why Goosen is his first choice Flyhalf? He hasn't employed any backline specialists because he doesn't need one (Erasmus is particularly rugby savvy in all aspects of the game). 

Last year was irrelevant towards the reflection of what Meyer has in store for the Boks (Himself and most unbiased rugby critics stating many times that 2012 was going to be a year of survival rather than development). This year should be judged for Meyers intent for the team, he has had his time to prepare (unlike last year when h

 Continuation from my last comment!

he was pressed for time and had to resort to his last gameplan as he has been absent from rugby for 2 years missing the advances in the sport).

Cheb if seeing is believing then Mike would've completely ignored this interview but instead he gathered all these words in a negative way and preaches doom. Also what would've you said he had done with the Bulls? No South African team had won Super Rugby until he led the Bulls to two title wins!

 Sadly Meyer is speaking through his arse. If he had learnt so much and was concerned with our breakdown, then why oh why would he leave a player like Brussouw out of the squad.

What on earth are players like Kirchner, Basson, de Jongh, Morne, Vermaak, Cilliers, Franco v/d Merwe, Juandre Kruger and Kankowski doing in the squad?

Why on earth are players like Willie le Roux, v/d Heever, JJ Engelbrecht, de Allende, Groom, Nkanyane, Kitshoff, Cooper, de Jager, Willemse, Brussouw, Elstadt, Daniel and Labascagne not in the squad.

Meyer has learnt stuff all from his mistakes last year, certainly not in terms of squad selections. His squad sells the worthy and in form players short and rewards out of form or never worthy players

 -On the positive side at least Meyer is admitting that backline team play issues exist. 

-Also that the breakdown is not as efficient as what it should be. 

-

I would agree these are the 2 main problems areas in South Africa, and it is not just with the Springboks. 

-The Cheetas backline is playing well this year, especially when Goosen was fit. 

- The Sharks backline last year looked good, but then again we had the French Flyhalf.

-

Last year, the breakdown was initially terribale. This was especially true in the English tests, and then in the Mendoza Test in Argentia.

When The Loose trio changed, and drastic improvement was seen in this area but still not up to the required standard. However the general ruck area needs to be tiddier to get quick fast ball from our strong ball carriers.

It is to easy for the opposition to lie all over our ball to slow down recycling.

-

For South Africa to be number one, we need to improve these 2 areas. 

We might never have the passing or recycling skills of NewZealand but if we can improve these 2 areas enough- then combined with our traditional strengths we can be the best.

-

Just hope that Meyer has the skills or can recruit the skills to help us in this area.

At least as a starting point, he states the 2 weaknesses of South African rugby.

Shezza

First of all - I have seen Meyer as a good proposition as a coach but then started to lose faith in him after six months.  

Let us consider what happened as to the Super series and the history of that series.  The first years that series was played the trophy was won by the Lions.   However, as times went on the New Zealanders internally changed their system and the domination of New Zealand teams commenced,  It was only in 2001 or 2002 that SARU changed the system away from what it was before - namely the top four Curry Cuip log teams to regional frnanchises that through contracting bring in players from other unions to augment there teams.   This really took some years to settle in and the Bulls took years to come through,   For the first two years of Meyer's term of office the Bulls was constantly the wooden spoonists of the competition.   Afterwards the Bulls showed massive improvement and they won the compeition with a style of rugby based virtually entirely on forward domination - especially in line-outs and maul situations.  

Now lets get to the style of play used in the main by the Bulls under Meyer,  Mattfield was quite honest about it.   The idea was to kick the ball as far as possible into opposition territory and use Bakkies and him to win the balls on opposititon throw - ins.   I cannot remember when exactly the rule change - namely that the kicking of balls outside of the 22 was changed to allow for line-outs to be in line with position of the kicker and not where the ball actually in touch was - but I believe it was only roundabout 2005 - when Meyer was the coach of the Bulls.   That change made life more difficult for the Bulls .   What I do know was that by 2007 the situation was that the ball could be passed back from scrums and line-outs outside the 22 and kicked directly into touch.   I believe that rule was changed only later to prevent passing back and then direct intotouch kicking.   

When White was appointed as coach he in the first instance went for the forward dominated game plan used by the Springboks after 2000 (namely the game plan Meyer was applying at the time for the Bulls) - but he was wise enough to realize that tthere was a problem and gradually brought about change.   By 2007 White brought in Eddy Jones to help in a rehash of backline play and it worked well in the WC.   At least White realized that something was wrong in the backline play situation and did something positive about it.

Despite the 2007 WC win - the Bulls management wanted Meyer in as Springbok coach and together with the EP and Cheetahs managements organized the minor Unions to engineer White's termination as a coach.   The plan was successful but some of the other Unions led by the EP had another agenda and in fact deserted the course and for their own reasons went against the Bulls and some of the other Unions - sick and tired of the behind the scenes dirty tricks - then in the final analysis turned the Bulls scheme upside down and elected De Villiers as a coach.    Meyer thereafter left the Bulls as coach - but never really lost touch with rugby in the succeeding two years.   For a while he was associated with the Leicester club after he left the Bulls as coach.

Now let us get back to your following statement and analize that one:-

"If HM's so kicking orientated then please explain why Goosen is his first choice Flyhalf? He hasn't employed any backline specialists because he doesn't need one (Erasmus is particularly rugby savvy in all aspects of the game)".

Goosen never was Meyer's first choice flyhalf.  Afer excellent performances in Super 15 Goosen got injured and never was in the scene until his return from injury.   Morne Steyn was failing last year and that is when Meyer brought in Goosen.   Goosen played in two tests - one only for a short while - before he was injured again and went out of the scene subsequently.  To claim that Goosen was Meyer's first choice flyhalf is really ridiculous.   The rest of the statement as to Erasmus is equally ridiculous.  Erasmus was a forward like Meyer and his tenure in WP started the scene where the Stormers also went into the dead backline syndrome -  evident in 2010 onwards.   Druring that time the Stormers were reasonably successful - with a forward-orientated game.    That ultimately led to last year when the approach failed dismally in the semi-final against the Sharks.

It could only be really a joke in poor taste to state that Meyer does not need backline specialists because Erasmus is around.   Both knows virtually nothing about backline play and that is a fact.   Both are adherents to a game plan that went sour as early as 2008 even in the northern hemisphere and after initial success after the WC and by the Bulls - the wheels went off big time and we now find ourselves in a ridiculous situation that we cannot even beat Argentina (for the first time ever a drawn match against them) and battled to beat Ireland and Scotland.  It is interesting to note that the backlines of all three teams in the tests referred to performed better than the Springbok backline.

The other ridiculous issue was with team selection.   Meyer initilly went wholsesale for Bulls players and in fact if you look at his squad selection virtually every Bulls player at one stage was in the squad and even in the starting line-up or on the bench.   The situation was laughabale because the Bulls was struggling in Super 15 - whilst the Sharks and Stormers were doing better.   As it is the Bulls and Sharks dominated the squads last year and te same can be said this year.   Nobody from the Kings and two players form the better-performing Cheetahs.

The selections would be the same ridicuous concoction that we had last year and there is no indication at all that things will improve - since the squad has a very large segment of players who failed thus far in Super 15.   That is where we stand today - sad to say.   We have a coach hell-bent on an unworkable game plan abolished by rugby virtually throughout the world and a selection criterium that caters for under-performig players and ignore  performing players in Super 15.    It would have been laughable - if it was not so tragic. 

After reading the posts above, I had a fair idea of what I wanted to comment until I came across Saffex's post. I no longer needed to write anything coz it was all there. Read that again. Read that post and understand it.

Saffex says:

"What on earth are players like Kirchner, Basson, de Jongh, Morne, Vermaak, Cilliers, Franco v/d Merwe, Juandre Kruger and Kankowski doing in the squad?"

That is true. The only squad these guys should assemble in is a squad that meets SA rugby to be let down slowly and told they are no longer in SA rugby's plans.

Then he says:

"Why on earth are players like Willie le Roux, v/d Heever, JJ Engelbrecht, de Allende, Groom, Nkanyane, Kitshoff, Cooper, de Jager, Willemse, Brussouw, Elstadt, Daniel and Labascagne in the squad"

Cant fault that either. Every single one of those mentioned deserves to be in that squad. It does not matter that this is not the final squad. What matters is the message this sends out. How on earth can Kankowski who cant hold a starting spot, and very likely to lose his bench spot too when Alberts, Deysel and Botes return be ahead of Elstadt, Daniel, CJ Stander and Brussouw?

Have we not learnt our lesson on Kirchner - He is simply a wasted place. Not the worst player in the world, just a meer nothing selection. He adds nothing. Ability to catch a ball at this level is just simply not enough! He adds nothing else. Poor on defence, even worse on attack. Catch and kick is it. Not even great tactically in terms of kicking. Simply wasting a position on the park.

Kanko - Not big enough to make an impact at 7 or 8 but not good enough to play as a fetcher. Simply, like Kirchner, another nothing selection.

Cilliers - Not even top 7 in SA. Likely not even top 10 and cant hold down a starting spot with the Stormers!

Franco - What is he? Is he an Etzebeth with sheer strength and power or is he a Matfield/Bekker and a lineout genius? To me, he adds nothing to a Bok pack.

Juandre - not bad but once again, a little too short to be a great line out spoiler and not physical enough to be a Bakkies/Etzebeth. Rather get a big guy like De Jager in.

De Jongh - We are never gona feel comfortable with him at 13 so why keep selecting this bloke. I think he is a better player than a lot of others on here do but that does not mean he is gona be a great Bok. A guy like JJ Engelbrecht can still develop into one given the backing of the coaches. He is at least a bigger presence and has the right attitude. I didn't used to like JJ but was probably being too harsh on him. He just had a bad patch and it happens to everyone..He was chewed up and spat out after 10 mins by Meyer and that probably did much more damage to his confidence than we will ever know. Even the incredible Frans Steyn has/is having a poor patch!

Basson - Why? Whose place is he gona take? Is he gona get the better of Savea? Another nothing selection and easy meters for opposition wingers!

Morne - He is never gona go away from the kicking game so do we really need to perservere with him?

There are others in the squad now that I would not have there and one noteable omission from Saff off the list of players who SHOULD NOT be there is Jantjies. This man is out of his depth and will actually lose SA games so is worse than a nothing selection because he cant even do the basics well enough. He is actually a good selection for opposing teams. Saff sees the good in Jantjies and neither me nor him can be wrong in our personal takes on him but that is my opinion.

Thank you old Maaik and Boklogic you have analysed and chronicled it well. I do not think Mike is being negative, just as honest as he sees it and backs it up with facts. The bottom line is that Saffa coaching styles are unprogressive in general with the exception of Drotsky who has left the past behind and has started implementing strategies that see a vast improved Cheetah side and one must ask the question if Naka had the choices and buying power of the Sharks Franchise he would leave Plum,Coetzee and Ludeke in the dust... the ex Grey Bloem boys would in a lot of cases stay with the Cheetahs.

Secondly...the Kings were mocked and referred to mockingly as the Queens...Alan Solomons was chosen as the director,Matt Sexton the head coach,Brad Mooar the backline coach and Doussey the kicking coach.

They formed a side of  left overs (some of it undervalued because Saffa coaches could not see any value) and turned it into a side in their first year that has earned respect and accolades.

Sexton (NZ) and Mooar (Christchurch club and Canterbury colts) shows up NZ coaching strategies positively and SA coaching styles negatively. This is not a flash in the pan...the Kings should have beaten the Brumbies in Canberra.... and won against the Rebels in Melbourne and won their first game against the Force and gave the Sharks a fright in PE.  The simple question is that they must be doing something that the stronger franchises are lacking???

SA rugby has got to change and that starts with coaching...with our huge resources in players there is no excuse...

Look guys, I get where all the negative sentiment is coming from, especially regarding the players that have been selected/left out of the training camp, and nobody has even mentioned that Serfontein has also missed the cut, that is simply crazy! But the positive thing is the following, the two areas which he has identified as critical to the Bok's, ARE the two areas where we are most lacking! If the Boks can sort out their issues in those two areas, look out world. Yes, these things have been a Bok weakness for a long time, and should have been addressed long ago, but at least that is what is now happening.

It is a positive step, and if addressed properly, could se the rise of the Boks back to the top.

Bluebok

In one respect as to breakdowns you are right - Meyer is going all outon that one.   In respect of backline play he is doing virtually bugger-all.  He spoke to the coaches and "noticed some improvements"  - not that anybody else noticed it.  Now he is going to speak to them about some of his ideas - I assume some workshop or another. 

However, unlike the breakdown issue - no specialist advisors or any other form of assistance at all.  In the meantime his backline squad is made up of th same players of last year - most of whom have failed miserably in Super 15 this year.  By the way if there is indeed  a game plan - one really wonders what it is - there is no dount that with rare exceptions - the players would not be able to execute it.  They are just not up to minimal standards.   How do you change a kicking flyhalf into an attacking flyhalf - eg Morne Steyn?

His selection amongst the forwards was equally putrid - he managed to pick players that rarekly if ever makes the starting 15 of their franchise teams and others that has done zilch this year.    Some like Coetzee was brilliant in Super 15 last year and showed very little (if anything) this year.

I think what Meyer thinks and what he does are two different stories completely - and the end result could only be negative.

Mike not being too negative!!!!!!!!! Get real!  Ou maaaikie has been predicting disaster for the Stormers and nauseum so its been a double does of his negativity.

All this about Sharks only being at 5 on the log and look at the Stormers - means our rugby is weak. What utter and compelete rubbish. Stormers had 13 injured players in their squad as at last Saturday. Sharks also had a number out. I am confident we would have won ALL our matches barrring the effects of injuries. Sharks would also have done better.

The trouble is when you do not take into account context one come up with this twaddle.

Its silly to think this is the final squad. Meyer explicitly said it wasnt.  Ou maaaikie and his cronies are talking themselves into a deep depressive hole. Best get on the medication boys as we wait for the egg to land.

We have some great players and I see no reason why we wont be competitive. I look forward with interest  to see how Meyer addresses the backline deficiencies he has noted. Why on earth would he ignore this after identifying it as one of the main issues!! But ou maaikie thinks it cant happen.

Mike has been making out de jongh to be totally useless. Is he ? No.

Now I see Keo saying Morne has thus far outplayed Lambie. But Morne is trash - what rubbish is this.

In ou maaikies mind he has blown this issue out of all proportion. Lambie may in any event be the flyhalf -he is the incumbent and morne is off overseas etc. Very little in it in any case. But to Mike if Morne plays we are toast. Hahahhahahahaha

No Mike leave the matters in Meyers capable hands and relax and enjoy the rugby. Meyer is bringing in new talent but not in a helter skelter fashion. He i sblending youth and experience. Watch the master at work and learn. Hahahhahahahahaha - are we running out of tissues?

Beeno

You don't get it - now do you?   The Stormers backline was useless for two years and now they want to play attacking rugby, but they cannot and their favoured players have cost them dearly.   De Jongh is suddenly the toast of the town - but he missed one in every four tackles he endeavour to make and that did add to that woeful loss record of the Stormers.   I will tell you one thing - if the Stormers win two matches on tour I will be amazed - if they win three I will withdraw all I said about the dunces like Coetzee, Jantjies and De Jongh.  I give them a small chance of beating the Rebels - but even that is in doubt.

Trust Meyer to do what?   The subsequent training camp will be a similar collection of players who should not be near to the squad.   It now transpires that despite the announcement - Serfontein was not involved - was it a deliberate lie spread earlier to silence critics - or what?

The Stormers are cooked and so is the Springboks - they are bound to be weaker this year despite all Meyer's talk.   He is and remains a dunce.  

 Mike, what is this about Serfontein not being in the training squad - pray tell me Meyer was not that stupid to exclude him?

Saffex

It was reported on this site that Serfontein was not at the camp.  He was not injured on Saturday - so why he was excluded can only be explained by Meyer.  

I believe that on many things we differ - But I fully share your point of view on Meyer.  He is not a coach's ass - or perhaps he is. 

Saffex

It was reported on this site that Serfontein was not at the camp.  He was not injured on Saturday - so why he was excluded can only be explained by Meyer.  

I believe that on many things we differ - But I fully share your point of view on Meyer.  He is not a coach's ass - or perhaps he is. 

 If Meyer did exclude Serfontein, he is more of a fool than I originally thought.

What is more alarming is, is the fact that Schrauder was invited to train with the squad along with Reinach, given the injuries to Vermaak and Hougaard.

How the hell can Schrauder get the call up ahead of Groom and Piet v/Zyl?

This is really painful to and extremely hard to grasp!  HM is focusing on Breakdown and Backline play; I don't think that came from him at all, he couldn't have possibly thought of that guys c'mon!  He probably overheard someone say so and coppied it because it sounds inteligent, period.

I know Brussouw is not 100% fit yet, but he'll get there if given the opportunity, thats one quality player Meyer is left out, and I have no idea why.

 Well the squad included injured players like Kirchner, Alberts, Habana, Hougaard, Bismark, Mvovo and Basson, so Brussouw coming back into match fitness could not have been used as a reason to exclude him.

Brussouw was not included because he i snot up to its oaks. Time t ofac ereality like meyer has.

Brussouw still has half thr suyper 15 to change mine and Meyer mind but right now its a no no.

We have Louw as our top number 6.  I am trying to persuade Meyer re the merits of Deon Fourie at 6 but no luck so far. Unfortunately Tian is out so Deon has to play hooker. Otherwise I am sure Meyer would have said Beeno I should have listened to you you as always!

Maybe ou brussouw will surprise and play some decent rugby and make the next extended squad selection. Will need to up his game. Keeps getting knocked off the ball,Jn bumpd him off like a rag doll. Small man in big mans world. See my post under the drug debate re average sizes etc and get a reality check.

 Schrooder is in Cape Town where the camp is held. I suspect Groom might by carrying a minor injury niggle.

The 3 issues at hand are (just to clafify)

1) What HM intends to do...what he says he will  do.

2) What he has done in past.

3) His selections.

Where the puzzle is, is his selection...if indeed his reconstruction is based on a "new plan" or better new strategies...strategies that work and stump opposition...not the readable and predictable styles of the past.

It seems that some selections don't tally up and one is mystified how it all will come together...Saffex has listed players that should not be there and I agree with most of them bar one or two.

Others are saying that this is only the first camp...others to follow but what is a guy like ZK (besides the rest) still doing there. OK give the guy a another chance...I do not think he is a complete fool (only ultra conservative and cautious) but I have a problem with these types of coaches...they just want to cover their arses and their job. They do not want to venture and take risks because they are not sure of themselves. The result is that rugby does not progress, younger players (should be the older spent players) can get frustrated and seek greener pastures in foreign lands. It is a self-centred approach that gets me...why does our rugby suffer because of fear of loss...fortune favours the bold.

Spot-on Saffex, probably he just doesn't like Brussouw as a person, period.

Beenkop, stop speaking shit............Brussouw at 102kg is the perfect size for an openside flanker, much like Kolisi is. Louw is not a true openside flanker and has been at best average for Bath this season.

Brussouw has been damn good for the Cheetahs this season. He, Wimpie v/d Walt and Kolisi have been our only worthy 6's this S15