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Moz please note, more problems for poor ab ass

Started by Beeno111 REPLIES1,606 VIEWS· 28 Feb 2016, 20:28
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BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
28 Feb 2016, 20:28
#1
28 Feb 2016, 20:28#1
I have to sau that its so great the global elititis are starting to be revealed for what they are. Global warming or climate change is part of their agenda t olkauncha one world government.
Here we see again the folly of their case:

The “Pause” in global warming is real – not an urban myth concocted by evil ‘deniers’ – a study has found, signalling the development of a major schism within the climate alarmist camp.

“It has been claimed that the early-2000s global warming slowdown or hiatus, characterized by a reduced rate of global surface warming, has been overstated, lacks sound scientific basis, or is unsupported by observations. The evidence presented here contradicts these claims,” the paper in Nature Climate Change says.

Though the paper’s findings are not controversial – few serious scientists dispute the evidence of the temperature datasets showing that there has been little if any global warming for nearly 19 years they represent a tremendous blow to the climate alarmist “consensus”, which has long sought to deny the “Pause’s” existence.

First, the study was published in Nature Climate Change a fervently alarmist journal which rarely if ever runs papers that cast doubt on the man-made-global-warming scare narrative.(In other words they are Goebbeles like propogandists. No wonder ou ab ass supports them! )

Secondly, it directly contradicts a widely-reported study produced by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) last year which attempted to deny the existence of the “Pause” (also known as the “hiatus”). This NOAA study was widely mocked, quickly debunked and is now the subject of a Congressional investigation by 

Rep. Lamar Smith (R-TX)60%. 
What’s novel about this new study in Nature Climate Change, though, is that it’s not skeptics and Republicans doing the mocking and the debunking: it’s the kind of people who in the past were very much in the alarmist camp, including – bizarrely – none other than Michael “Hockey Stick” Mann, who co-authored the paper.

What we have here, in other words, is signs of a major rift within the climate alarmist camp with different factions adopting different tactics to cope with the failure of their collapsing narrative. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

On one side are people like Thomas Karl and Thomas Petersen, the hapless NOAA scientists given the unenviable task of producing that risible paper last year which did its best to deny that the Pause was a thing.

On the other are what might be called the “rats deserting the sinking ship” faction who have produced this new paper for Nature Climate Change, in which finally they concede what skeptics have been saying for many years: that there has been no “global warming” since 1998.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA OU ROOITWIT WAS ALMOSTAS DELUDED AS POOR AB ASS!

This divergence in the alarmist camp is now going to create a dilemma for all those liberal media outlets – from the BBC to the Guardian to the LA Times – which reported on NOAA’s “death of the pause” study as if it were a reliable and credible thing. (GIVEN THESE ORGAINISATIONS ARE OWNED BY GLBAL ELITISTS OF COURSE THEY APPORVED CLIMATE CHANGE AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO REGARDLESS).

Are they now going to report on the counter-narrative? Or are they going to ignore it and hope no one notices?

The man who would like more than anyone to know the answer to this question is David Whitehouse, Science Editor of the Global Warming Policy Foundation and a former science editor at the BBC (till the point when his skepticism became too much for his employer).

That’s because in 2007, he was one of the first scientists to draw attention to the mysterious slowdown in global warming.

As he recalls in the Spectator:

In 2007 I pointed out that it was curious that in recent years the global annual average temperature had not increased at a time when greenhouse gasses were increasing rapidly and when the media (DOING THE BIDDING OF THEIR MASTERS) was full of claims that the earth’s temperature was getting higher and higher. I proposed no explanation but said that it was a curious observation that would probably change in the near future. I was lambasted for being a denier and liar. Yet in the following years the global temperature did not increase. (ANYBODY OPPOSING THE GLOBAL ELITISTS WILL GET THIS TREATMENT WITNESS TRUMP!!!!)

Some vocal scientists spent more time saying it was wrong than actually looking at the data. While many in the media portrayed the phenomenon as a desperate weapon used by sceptics to undermine climate science, real scientists took notice and began to study the warming pause. It was not long before it was being discussed at conferences and in scientific journals. Something was clearly different about the nature of global temperature change since 1997 than it had been in the previous two decades. It was not only slower, but not increasing at all for many years. Indeed it was said in the prestigious scientific journal Nature that the “pause” or “hiatus” is the biggest problem in climate science.

Whitehouse is too polite to name the alarmist shills and activist attack dogs who have fought so hard over the years to discredit anyone who has dared suggest the existence of a Pause. So I will. But in a separate article. It seems to me that these people are so disgusting, corrupt, nauseating and malign that they shouldn’t simply be tacked on to the end of a news story. They should be made to perform the internet equivalent of Cersei’s Walk of Shame; or, at the very least, to be put in the stocks and pelted with excrement.(pLEASE MAKE SURE AB ASS AND ROOTWIT ARE INLUDED - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA)

In the meantime let us all draw comfort from the fact that a) the alarmists are finally being forced to concede that their skeptic adversaries are right and b) that they are starting to turn on one another. This is the beginning of the end for the alarmist “consensus”. And not before time.

SO THERE WE HAVE IT OAKS. THE BIG QUESTION IS WILL THE SIMPLE OAKS EVER LEARN NOT TO SIMPLY SUCK UP EVERYTHING THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA PUTS OUT. THEY HAVE SERIOUS AGENDAS AND ITS TO SUPPORT THE GLOBALISTS.

I SUPECT OU AB ASS IS FAR, FAR GONE TO ESCAPE THE BRAINWASHING HE HAS HAD. ROOITWIT ALSO IS ONE WHO SUCKS IT ALL UP WITHOUT A THOUGHT. ALL WE CAN DO IS POINT OUT THE  FOLLY OF THEIR WAYS AND HOPE ONE DAY IN THE DISTANT FUTURE THE PENNY MIGHT DROP. ITS A VERY LONG SHOT.


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Feb 2016, 20:48
#2
28 Feb 2016, 20:48#2
I think there have been climate changes from time immemorial in the world,   There has been ice ages - the last one reputed to be 12 000 years ago and subsequently a period of global warming.   These cycles will come and go as the present sonar system exists.
I think warming and cold cycles has to  my mind very little to do with human activity 0 but when that opinion is expressed - the attack by the one-world government goes ballistic.  
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
28 Feb 2016, 20:54
#3
28 Feb 2016, 20:54#3
 which part of "cricket section" don't you understand?



BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
28 Feb 2016, 21:18
#4
28 Feb 2016, 21:18#4
 You still having delusions about the cricket section ab ass! Hahahahahahahaha ou ab ass still dreaming of a non existent agreement. Best modify your gullible views re climate change ab ass. It would make one less error in your so called life!


AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
28 Feb 2016, 21:27
#5
28 Feb 2016, 21:27#5
 





    
Beeno1

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climate change deniers

Climate change deniers are contrarians who challenge the evidence that human activities such as deforestation and human behaviors that result in more greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide are causing changes in our planet's climate that may prove devastating and irreversible. Contrarians pose as skeptics, refusing to accept consensus conclusions in science on the ground that there is still some uncertainty. True skeptics raise specific doubts about specific claims and do not try to debunk a whole area of science by an occasional error or by the general lack of absolute certainty, which is unattainable in any area of science.

The core of the consensus view of the scientific community has been stated by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) in its "Climate Change 2007" report. The core of the consensus view is, among other things, that global warming is happening and that human activities are contributing significantly to the climate change, which is affecting such things as the intensity of hurricanes and rising sea levels. It would be absurd, of course, to claim that the consensus of the scientific community agrees with everything in the IPCC reports, especially since not all the scientists who worked on those reports agree with each other on every item.

The evidence is piling up that global warming is continuing at an unprecented pace and that much of it has been due to human activity. The IPPC "Climate Change 2013" report asserts that "warming of the climate system is unequivocal" and that "continued emissions of greenhouse gases will cause further warming and changes in all components of the climate system." Global warming is having a seriously deleterious effect on our oceans:

The atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide, methane, and nitrous oxide have increased to levels unprecedented in at least the last 800,000 years. Carbon dioxide concentrations have increased by 40% since pre-industrial times, primarily from fossil fuel emissions and secondarily from net land use change emissions. The ocean has absorbed about 30% of the emitted anthropogenic carbon dioxide, causing ocean acidification.

According to the report, ocean warming accounts for more than 90% of the energy accumulated in the climate system between 1971 and 2010. Expect to see continued melting of ice sheets and glaciers, rising sea levels, and continued warming of the atmosphere and oceans. Climate change deniers are quick to find fault with climate change reports, mainly by finding errors in prediction by this or that scientist and by condemning the whole process of modeling as unreliable. The critical thinker should take in the whole body of evidence, not just part of it, and shouldn't reject the many lines of argument and evidence that have been put forth by the scientific community regarding climate change as real and partly caused by human activity. Modeling is just one of several lines of evidence and argumentation used. In any case, models have improved since the last report. They now reproduce observed continental scale surface temperature patterns and trends over many decades, including the more rapid warming since the mid-20th century and the cooling immediately following large volcanic eruptions.

In one important respect, it doesn't matter what the scientific consensus on climate change is, since what matters is what policies the powerful governments of the world institute, and those governments tend to ignore science. If they don't ignore the science, they find contrarians to argue that the consensus isn't absolutely certain* and therefore we're justified in continuing along our current course. Powerful governments tend to listen to scientists when the consensus science is compatible with their policies or when it is required because of catastrophes that have already occurred or are about to occur.

BBC News has posted 10 of the arguments most often made against the IPCC consensus, as well as some of the counter-arguments made by scientists who agree with the IPCC: Climate Skepticism: the Top 10. An even clearer contrast between the deniers and the consensus can be found here. Finally, an excellent account of the data regarding climate change has been provided by Donald Prothero in his article "How We Know Global Warming is Real and Human Caused."

Afterthought

A common complaint echoed in letters-to-the-editor across the land, by seemingly informed citizens who care, harps on the inadequacy of models used to predict changes in the globe's climate. Here is a typical sample culled from my local fishwrap, The Davis Enterprise, parsed here for the reader's entertainment and, perhaps, education:

The computer models used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change to “predict” global warming were built by correlating past global temperatures with past carbon dioxide levels, and then introducing a few “fudge” factors to make sure the models fit the data (just remember that correlation does not imply causation).

comment: I love this conjunction of a true statement--experts use the past to predict the future--with bullshit, the claim that the experts cheat and deceive while being oblivious to a fundamental characteristic of all inductive reasoning. The implication that the experts don't know that correlation does not imply causation is based on what? On nothing. Making the claim, however, may give some readers the impression that the letter writer knows more than the experts do and is calling them out for being dishonest and ignorant.

What the writer of this letter fails to mention--perhaps because he doesn't understand what he's talking about--is that there is no other way to predict the future than by studying the past and the present. Unless, of course, you want to resort to so-called psychics with the alleged power of precognition. Another thing the writer fails to mention is that any attempt in science or any other field that attempts to anticipate what will happen in the future is, by the very nature of empirical reasoning from the past to the future, inductive and must be couched in terms of probabilities. Anyone who demands deductive models and absolute certainty in predictive empirical matters is demanding what is impossible and is, by definition, scientifically illiterate.

The worst omission by the writer on the issue of models, however, is the false implication that climate models are unreliable. Perhaps no other claim by climate change deniers has been refuted more clearly by the evidence than the claim that climate models are unreliable. G. P. Wayne of the website Skeptical Science demonstrates: "Climate models have already predicted many of the phenomena for which we now have empirical evidence. Climate models form a reliable guide to potential climate change." If the reader really wants to know how reliable models are, read Wayne's account. I won't repeat it here.

The models are very good at “predicting” the past temperature fluctuations upon which they were based. These models were then used to predict what future global temperatures would be, assuming that levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide were the primary factor influencing global temperatures.

comment: Again, the writer juxtaposes a true statement (actually two true statements) with bullshit. The writer's last statement accuses the climate experts of begging the question, assuming what they should be proving. They do no such thing. The data from the past are what lead experts to conclude that atmospheric carbon dioxide--among other things--is a primary factor influencing global temperatures.

The IPCC computer models continue to predict unrelenting global warming as carbon dioxide levels continue to increase. However, there has been no increase in global warming for the past 18 years (Remote Sensing Systems’ satellite-based monthly global mean lower-troposphere temperature data set) even though the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide has continued to increase from 0.0365 to 0.0401 percent (this is analogous to adding 2.3 people to the population of Davis over the past 18 years).

comment: Three for three: another fact followed by bullshit. We'll forgive the loaded word 'unrelenting' in the writer's description of the IPCC's models regarding increasing global warming. The models do predict the warming of the planet is likely to continue if we humans don't change our ways. Specifically, we need to change the ways we live that lead to increased release of carbon dioxide, methane, and other harmful chemicals into our atmosphere and seas. The writer doesn't mention it but the experts are quite clear in their warning that even if we do change our ways drastically, it is not certain that it will do much good. In other words, we have dawdled for so long thanks to all those good folks who make sowing doubt about climate change their main goal in life that anything we do now may have little significant effect on the future of the planet.

The bullshit--perhaps 'lie' is a more accurate word in this case--is the claim that there has been no increase in global warming for the past 18 years. This lie has been making the rounds among climate change deniers for quite some time. The deniers claim there has been no global warming since 1998. To be charitable, this claim may not be only a lie; it may also represent a high degree of ignorance. Most of the increased heat on our planet--more than 90% of it--is occurring in our oceans. If you consider only land heat, the increase has been modest compared to the increase in ocean heat. The folks at Skeptical Science have reprinted a graph, based on real rather than made-up or partial data, that shows where the heat is going.

 

This lie that there has been no increase in global warming since 1998 has been debunked by our friends at Skeptical Science. In addition to ignoring the heating of our oceans, the liars or ignoramuses who put forth this claim ignore "the fact that short term temperature trends are strongly influenced by a variety of natural factors and observational limitations which must be analyzed to isolate the human contribution." (For an example of an attempt by climate scientists to do just that see "Well-estimated global surface warming in climate projections selected for ENSO phase" by Risby et al.) Looked at from the other side--the side of the experts--it would not be justified to make grandiose claims about continued global warming using only data from the recent past. The fact that last year (2013) was the sixth hottest year on record (tied with 2007) and the fact that "thirteen of the fourteen warmest years on record have all occurred in the 21st century" doesn't prove global warming will continue at a record pace. You have to look at data from a much longer period of time. It should be evident to even the dimmest bulb in the climate change denier lamppost that you can't reasonably conclude there is no global warming by ignoring the heating of the oceans and looking at cherry-picked data from short term temperature trends.

The discrepancy between the predicted and actual global temperature is rapidly increasing; i.e., the models are becoming increasingly inaccurate.

comment: Now the writer slips into the land of pure bullshit. Perhaps he thinks his previous mixture of truth and lies has laid the groundwork for the grand finale: a flourish of made-up claims that other equally ignorant souls may find attractive.

I am sure new computer models will be created to better fit the new data, but unless the assumptions underlying the models are correct (i.e., verified by unbiased testing using new data, not by back testing against the very data set that was used to create the model), they may be just as unreliable as the current models.

comment: More lies and false implications. Of course the experts are using new data to both check and modify their models. The evidence so far is that the models are working very well. Unfortunately, the future looks bleaker and bleaker with each new report from the IPCC.

It is obvious that we currently do not have sufficient understanding of the factors affecting global climate to predict how the climate will change in a few decades, much less in a century.

comment: Sufficient understanding? Nice try, denier. If it is absolute certainty you are looking for, try math or formal logic. Science doesn't deal in absolute certainty about complex empirical matters. The truth is that we have a very good understanding of what is happening to our global climate and of the effects human activities are having on changes in our climate. All our predictions, of necessity, must be couched in terms of probabilities. To demand more demonstrates one's ignorance about science and inductive reasoning.

Should we base critical economic decisions using predictions from the current flawed model, or should we take prudent actions to mitigate the near-term effects of the changing climate while engaging in open scientific research so we can devise a model that actually could predict future climatic changes?

comment: The letter writer concludes in grand fashion with a false dichotomy, each arm of which is loaded with false or misleading implications. All empirical reasoning about the future is "flawed" in the sense that it can never lead to absolute certainty. Only those ignorant of inductive reasoning, however, would consider uncertainty in predicting the future a flaw. (Remember Bertrand Russell's example of the chicken who gets fed every day by the farmer. Then one day, seeing the farmer coming toward him, the chicken expects to get fed. Instead, he gets axed.) Climate scientists are conducting open scientific research, continually checking and tweaking models, improving them as the data increases. The call to "take prudent action" is actually a call to take no action that would hinder the continued use of oil and gas to the profit of Big Petrol and to the continued comfort of those of us who already have the advantages of a comfortable lifestyle that includes having two cars in the garage and coal for our furnaces.

Also, several climate change deniers have noted that the ice in Antarctica is growing. This fact, they say, proves global warming is a hoax. I don't think so. Here's why.

While it is true that ice is growing in Antarctica, it is also true that "the Southern Ocean surrounding Antarctica has shown strong warming over the same period that sea ice has been increasing. Globally from 1955 to 1995, oceans have been warming at 0.1°C per decade. In contrast, the Southern Ocean (specifically the region where Antarctic sea ice forms) has been warming at 0.17°C per decade. Not only is the Southern Ocean warming, it's warming faster than the global trend. This warming trend is apparent in satellite measurements of temperature trends over Antarctica."

If the Southern Ocean is warming, why is sea ice increasing? There are several contributing factors. One is the drop in ozone levels over Antarctica. The hole in the ozone layer above the South Pole has caused cooling in the stratosphere (Gillet 2003). A side-effect is a strengthening of the cyclonic winds that circle the Antarctic continent (Thompson 2002). The wind pushes sea ice around, creating areas of open water known as polynyas. More polynyas leads to increased sea ice production (Turner 2009).

Another contributor is changes in ocean circulation. The Southern Ocean consists of a layer of cold water near the surface and a layer of warmer water below. Water from the warmer layer rises up to the surface, melting sea ice. However, as air temperatures warm, the amount of rain and snowfall also increases. This freshens the surface waters, leading to a surface layer less dense than the saltier, warmer water below. The layers become more stratified and mix less. Less heat is transported upwards from the deeper, warmer layer. Hence less sea ice is melted (Zhang 2007).

Those who care can read all about it at Skeptical Science.

See also manufactroversy, "Keeping a cool head about global warming," and SD Newsletter 11 Jan 2010: Global warming, climate changes, science, and politics.

note: In "Keeping a cool head about global warming," I wrote:

First, let me acknowledge that scientists who produce scientific work that conflicts with the consensus of scientists on climate change are not necessarily contrarians. There is room in any complex scientific inquiry for a variety of opinions on how to interpret various sets of data.

In a newsletter, I wrote:

The climate change skeptics page is now the climate change deniers page. A link was added to Greenfyer's take on what some are calling "climategate," the hacking of a computer belonging to the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia in Britain and posting hundreds of e-mails and other documents. The deniers are so hot and venting so much carbon monoxide and methane that global warming is said to be accelerating at an unprecedented pace and the axis of the Earth has shifted two degrees. Jim Lippard provides a sober view of the affair.

As the folks at Denialism.com note, deniers employ rhetorical tactics to give the appearance of argument or legitimate debate, when in actuality there is none. Most deniers' arguments incorporate more than one of the following tactics: Conspiracy, Selectivity, False Experts, Impossible Expectations/Moving Goalposts, and Argument from Metaphor/violations of informal logic. Global warming deniers are big on conspiracy: according to them, an entire community of scientists has some ulterior motive for their climate research, such as an ideology or a desire to keep their funding. Global warming deniers are also prone to cherry-picking their data and their quotes, citing single errors or discredited papers as proof that a whole field of science is corrupt. Because many of those supporting the climate change denial campaign are corporations heavily invested in fossil fuels or are politicians who depend on those corporations for campaign funds, they are prone to put forth fake experts to raise some dust.

reader comments

further reading

books and articles

Friel, Howard. 2010. The Lomborg Deception: Setting the Record Straight About Global Warming. Yale University Press.

Hoggan, James. 2009. Climate Cover-Up: The Crusade to Deny Global Warming. Greystone.

Michaels, David. 2008. Doubt is Their Product: How Industry's Assault on Science Threatens Your Health. Oxford University Press.

Oreskes, Naomi and Erik M. Conway. 2010. Merchants of Doubt: How a Handful of Scientists Obscured the Truth on Issues from Tobacco Smoke to Global Warming. Bloomesbury Press.

Prothero, Donald R. How We Know Global Warming is Real and Human Caused. eSkeptic. 8 Feb 2012. An excellent article listing the main evidence for human-caused global warming and the main ojections (and scathing rebuttals) of the climate-change deniers. A must read for anyone still wondering who to trust: Rush Limbaugh, FOX News, a few outliers and outliars or the climate scientists.

Thompson, Lonnie G. 2010. "Climate Change: The Evidence and Our Options." The Behavior Analyst 33, 153–170 No. 2 (Fall). "Glaciers serve as early indicators of climate change. Over the last 35 years, our research team has recovered ice-core records of climatic and environmental variations from the polar regions and from low-latitude high-elevation ice fields from 16 countries. The ongoing widespread melting of high-elevation glaciers and ice caps, particularly in low to middle latitudes, provides some of the strongest evidence to date that a large-scale, pervasive, and, in some cases, rapid change in Earth’s climate system is underway."

book review

Mark Lynas reviews Watermelons: How Environmentalists Are Killing the Planet, Destroying the Economy and Stealing Your Children’s Future by James Delingpole. "In case you don't know what the 'watermelons' of the title refers to, this is a pejorative term for environmentalists - the idea is that they are green on the outside but red on the inside. Green activists, in this view, are the new commie menace....

"Delingpole is so deluded that he misses the real story. It is true that there is a lot wrong with environmentalism. Most greens do reject perfectly eco-friendly technologies such as nuclear power or GM crops and their Luddite prejudices are as unscientific as Delingpole's right-wing ranting. And a minority of environmentalists are indeed fools who indulge in fantasies usually involving back-to-the-land romanticism, peculiar obsessions with obsolete technologies such as scythes and a hatred of the very industrially derived comfort that feeds them and affords them the cyberspace in which to spout their nonsense.

"In other words, some are 'watermelons'. I believe that capitalism and democracy sometimes need defending from the more deluded greens, and the environmental movement as a whole is far too much a creature of the political left. Delingpole, however, is not the man to make this case, because doing so would involve some original research."

Donald Prothero reviews James L. Powell’s book, The Inquisition of Climate Science, a compilation of the evidence for anthropogenic global warming (AGW). The book also describes the many distortions of the evidence by AGW deniers in their attempt to muddy the waters.

websites

McNider and Christy Style Themselves Revolutionary But Defend Inertia Climate Science Watch
"Peer-reviewed comparisons between data and [computer climate change] models show that the models do a good job of simulating the observations. McNider and Christy's non-peer-reviewed comparison showing poor agreement requires flagrant cherry picking. In the end, like most scientific outliers, their ideas are destined for the dustbin of science.”

Scurvy Story: Why You Should Believe 97% Of Climate Scientists, Not Long-Wrong John Christy by Joe Romm, Climate Progress
Spencer and Christy sat by for most of a decade allowing — indeed encouraging — the use of their data set as an icon for global warming deniers. They committed serial errors in the data analysis, but insisted they were right and models and thermometers were wrong. They did little or nothing to root out possible sources of errors, and left it to others to clean up the mess, as has now been done....But what would you expect from a guy who contributed the chapter “The Global Warming Fiasco” to a 2002 book called Global Warming and Other Eco-Myths, published by Competitive Enterprise Institute, a leading provider of disinformation on global warming that was funded by ExxonMobil?

Nazis, shoddy science, and the climate contrarian credibility gap
Climate model global warming projections have far outperformed predictions made by climate contrarians, and have performed fairly well overall (including current climate models).

Must-Read: Scientists Uncover Evidence Of Impending Tipping Point For Earth "If we stay anywhere near our current greenhouse gas emissions path, we will cross many climate tipping points this century. There’s the nearby tipping point for an ice-free arctic, with all that means for making our weather much more extreme and for triggering another tipping point, the rapid loss of carbon from the permafrost. There’s the tipping point for the 'self-amplifying' disintegration of Greenland and, after that, an ice free planet (though we’d cross the point of no return long before the full melting ever happened)."

Arctic Ice Thinning 4 Times Faster Than Predicted by IPCC Models, Semi-Stunning M.I.T. Study Finds

OK, climate sceptics: here's the raw data you wanted Temperature records going back 150 years from 5113 weather stations around the world were yesterday released to the public by the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) at the University of East Anglia in Norwich, UK. The only records missing are from 19 stations in Poland, which refused to allow them to be made public.

The top 5 ways the ‘birthers’ are like the deniers Birtherism is a manifestation of the GOP’s embrace of anti-intellectualism and anti-science ideology whose “most harmful delusion” is climate science denial, as even Washington Post’s Editorial Page Editor — the guy who runs the disinformation of George Will, BJorn Lomborg and Sarah Palin — acknowledged.....

5. Both groups are impervious to the evidence.
4. Both come from the same group of people.
3. Both groups get their disinformation from the same right-wing sources.
2. Both groups have an underlying motivation — their desire to obstruct progressive government action.
1. Both groups believe in a mammoth conspiracy theory.

Eight great figures summarizing the evidence for a “human fingerprint” on recent climate change The clever deniers these days don’t deny the painfully obvious reality that the planet is warming or that climate is changing — they simply deny that humans are a major cause.

Climatologists under pressure from the editors of Nature: To these denialists, the scientists' scathing remarks about certain controversial palaeoclimate reconstructions qualify as the proverbial 'smoking gun': proof that mainstream climate researchers have systematically conspired to suppress evidence contradicting their doctrine that humans are warming the globe.

This paranoid interpretation would be laughable were it not for the fact that obstructionist politicians in the US Senate will probably use it next year as an excuse to stiffen their opposition to the country's much needed climate bill....

In the end, what the UEA e-mails really show is that scientists are human beings — and that unrelenting opposition to their work can goad them to the limits of tolerance, and tempt them to act in ways that undermine scientific values.

See also: Presidential Address: Reflections On: Our Planet and Its Life, Origins, and Futures by James J. McCarthy for a brief overview of the history of climate science.

Swifthack - a clearing house for articles on "climategate."

Skeptical Science - Examining the science of global warming skepticism Deniers "vigorously criticize any evidence that supports man-made global warming and yet eagerly, even blindly embrace any argument, op-ed piece, blog, or study that refutes global warming."

Global Climate Change Impacts in the United States

Scientific American

UN climate convention

UN Environment Programme data centre

World Meteorological Organization

NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies

US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration

US National Snow and Ice Data Center

British Antarctic Survey

realclimate.org

Climate Audit

Gristmill: how to talk to a climate skeptic

The Lavoisier Group *

news stories

New Study Links Weather Extremes to Global Warming The study by Dr. Erich M. Fischer, lead author of a study published Monday by the journal Nature Climate Change, and his colleague Reto Knutti of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich is not the first to attribute large-scale changes in extreme weather to human influence on the climate. But it is among the first to forecast, on a global scale, how those extremes might change with continued global warming."

Merchants of Doubt' surveys the industry of climate denial "The new documentary “Merchants of Doubt” addresses the reality of corporate-sponsored public disinformation campaigns on subjects such as cigarette smoking, fire retardants and climate science....Cigarette companies discovered as far back as 1953 that through slick public relations, parading your own “experts” for media consumption and sticking with the mantra “We are just not sure,” how a small cadre can fend off overwhelming scientific consensus for decades. A few of the same scientists trotted out to argue for the safety of smoking are now at the forefront of climate denial."

Deniers are not Skeptics - December 5, 2014 - An Open letter to journalists "Public discussion of scientific topics such as global warming is confused by misuse of the term 'skeptic.'"

Global warming melts last stable edge of Greenland's Zachariae ice stream, scientists say The ice stream, called Zachariae, is the largest drain from an ice basin that covers16 per cent of the Greenland ice sheet. From 2003 to 2012, north-eastern Greenland disgorged 10 billion tonnes of ice annually into the ocean. "North-east Greenland is very cold. It used to be considered the last stable part of the Greenland ice sheet," said Michael Bevis, an Earth sciences professor at Ohio State University, who led the study. "This study shows that ice loss in the north-east is now accelerating. So, now it seems that all the margins of the Greenland ice sheet are unstable."

Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial think tanks Anonymous billionaires donated $120m to more than 100 anti-climate groups working to discredit climate change science. The millions were routed through two trusts, Donors Trust and the Donors Capital Fund, operating out of a generic town house in the northern Virginia suburbs of Washington DC. "We exist to help donors promote liberty which we understand to be limited government, personal responsibility, and free enterprise," said Whitney Ball, chief executive of the Donors Trust. An interested thinker could chew on that bone for more than a few hours.

Boris Johnson says snow casts doubt on climate change science The mayor of London demonstrates why common sense is so common. He doesn't seem to think there is an important difference between weather (personal experience: he can see and feel the snow and the cold) and climate (scientific data: this requires thinking). According to this Guardian article, Johnson is "widely touted as the next prime minister of this country." That would be perfect for the climate change deniers who will block any efforts by Obama, who at least mentioned climate change--"we will respond to the threat of climate change"--in his cover-it-all second inaugural address.

According to a CNN poll released yesterday, only about half of the 814 adults in the nationwide telephone survey accept that global warming is a proven fact and due to emissions from cars, power plants, and factories. Another fourth of those polled accept that global warming is a fact but not due to human activities. About one-fourth of those polled think that global warming has not been proven. This might appear to be good news for those of us who are concerned that the longer nations put off dealing with global warming the more dangerous it becomes for life on earth. However, the percentage of those who accept anthropogenic global warming is down seven points from 2007. Even more distressing for Americans is that only one out of every three Republicans accept the fact of anthropogenic global warming. On the other side, one out of every three Democrats doesn't accept that global warming is due to human activities. Independents are split on the issue.

The poll was conducted for CNN by ORC International on Jan. 14-15. The survey's overall sampling error, we're told, is plus or minus 3.5 percentage points.

Check With Climate Scientists for Views on Climate The Wall Street Journal "published "No Need to Panic About Global Warming" (op-ed, Jan. 27) on climate change by the climate-science equivalent of dentists practicing cardiology."

CO2 sensitivity possibly less than most extreme projections "A new study in the journal Science suggests that the global climate may be less sensitive to carbon dioxide fluctuations than predicted by the most extreme projections, and maybe slightly less than the best estimates of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change."

Climate Change Skeptics Eat Crow Global warming skeptics suspected climate change scientists were hiding data. So the skeptics paid for a new study to find the real truth. The results are in! And they're identical to previous results: Humans are heating up the Earth.

Energy and global warming news for February 16: Trillions at stake from climate change by 2030 It would seem that the only people who think global warming is a scam are the industries that are set to lose the most: coal, oil, and gas companies.

and Two seminal Nature papers join growing body of evidence that human emissions fuel extreme weather, flooding that harm humans and the environment

New House Science Committee chair Ralph Hall (R-TX) threatens to subpoena climate scientists Ralph Hall (R-TX), the incoming chair of the House Science and Technology Committee: his anti-science pro-pollution denialist policies are poised to deliver a ruined climate to future generations....

Climate change means colder winters: study Climate change could lead to colder winters in northern regions, according to a study by the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research on Tuesday.

Scientists launch climate science counterattacks The American Geophysical Union plans to announce that 700 researchers have agreed to speak out on the issue. Faced with rising political attacks, hundreds of climate scientists are joining a broad campaign to push back against congressional conservatives who have threatened prominent researchers with investigations and vowed to kill regulations to rein in man-made greenhouse gas emissions. Of the more than 100 new GOP members of Congress, 50% are climate change skeptics.

Report recommends UN climate panel shakeup

An enquiry by the InterAcademy Council into the UN's climate panel, the IPCC, has recommended administrative changes, including a full-time chief executive. It found the IPCC had "assigned high confidence to statements for which there is very little evidence," had failed to acknowledge criticism, or follow its own guidelines. The IPCC was also criticized for confirmation bias with lead authors placing "too much weight on their own views relative to other views."

The report is available online at http://reviewipcc.interacademycouncil.net/.

Giant Glacier Breaks on Anniversary of Global Warming "...the new ice island was born just in time for the 35th anniversary of the scientific paper that coined the term 'global warming.'"

Rebutting climate science disinformer talking points in a single line "Progressives should know the most commonly used arguments by the disinformers and doubters — and how to answer them. You should know as much of the science behind those rebuttals as possible, and a great place to start is SkepticalScience.com. BUT most of the time your best response is to give the pithiest response possible, and then refer people to a specific website that has a more detailed scientific explanation with links to the original science." Some examples:

“It’s the sun” -- The sun’s output has barely changed since 1970 and is irrelevant to recent global warming.  

 “Climate’s changed before” -- Climate reacts to whatever forces it to change at the time, which now is dominated by humans. 

“There is no consensus” -- 97% of climate experts agree humans are causing global warming.

“Models are unreliable” Models successfully reproduce temperatures since 1900 globally, by land, in the air and the ocean.

Open letter: Climate change and the integrity of science Full text of an open letter from 255 members of the US National Academy of Sciences in defense of climate research

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Koch Industries: Secretly Funding the Climate Denial Machine Billionaire oilman David Koch likes to joke that Koch Industries is “the biggest company you've never heard of.” But the nearly $50 million that David Koch and his brother Charles have quietly funneled to climate-denial front groups that are working to delay policies and regulations aimed at stopping global warming is no joking matter.

Case Study: The Koch-funded “ClimateGate” Echo Chamber

Piecing together the temperature puzzle The past year, 2009, tied as the second warmest year since global instrumental temperature records began 130 years ago. Worldwide, the mean temperature was 0.57°C (1.03°F) warmer than the 1951-1980 base period. And January 2000 to December 2009 came out as the warmest decade on record.

Climate scepticism 'on the rise', BBC poll shows Some 35% of Brits believe climate change is either not happening or that it's happening but is not due to human behavior. Only 26% of those polled believe climate change is happening and that it is "now established as largely man-made."

Glacier-melting debate highlights importance of satellites Data from satellites allow scientists to measure glacier extent in detail, providing authoritative evidence of trends.

Climate Change in the American Mind: Americans’ Global Warming Beliefs and Attitudes in January 2010 The researchers used an online research panel of 1,001 American adults. The completion rate was 50 percent. The sample was weighted to correspond with US Census Bureau parameters for the United States. The survey found:

Only 50 percent of Americans now say they are “somewhat” or “very worried” about global warming;

The percentage of Americans who think global warming is happening is 57 percent;

The percentage of Americans who think global warming is caused mostly by human a


AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
28 Feb 2016, 21:28
#6
28 Feb 2016, 21:28#6
 

Paleoclimate: The End of the Holocene

Filed under: — stefan @ 16 September 2013 - ()

Recently a group of researchers from Harvard and Oregon State University has published the first global temperature reconstruction for the last 11,000 years – that’s the whole Holocene (Marcott et al. 2013). The results are striking and worthy of further discussion, after the authors have already commented on their results in this blog.


A while ago, I discussed here the new, comprehensive climate reconstruction from the PAGES 2k project for the past 2000 years. But what came before that? Does the long-term cooling trend that ruled most of the last two millennia reach even further back into the past?

Over the last decades, numerous researchers have painstakingly collected, analyzed, dated, and calibrated many data series that allow us to reconstruct climate before the age of direct measurements. Such data come e.g. from sediment drilling in the deep sea, from corals, ice cores and other sources. Shaun Marcott and colleagues for the first time assembled 73 such data sets from around the world into a global temperature reconstruction for the Holocene, published in Science. Or strictly speaking, many such reconstructions: they have tried about twenty different averaging methods and also carried out 1,000 Monte Carlo simulations with random errors added to the dating of the individual data series to demonstrate the robustness of their results.

To show the main result straight away, it looks like this:


Figure 1 Blue curve: Global temperature reconstruction from proxy data of Marcott et al, Science 2013. Shown here is the RegEM version – significant differences between the variants with different averaging methods arise only towards the end, where the number of proxy series decreases. This does not matter since the recent temperature evolution is well known from instrumental measurements, shown in red (global temperature from the instrumental HadCRU data). Graph: Klaus Bitterman.

The climate curve looks like a “hump”. At the beginning of the Holocene – after the end of the last Ice Age – global temperature increased, and subsequently it decreased again by 0.7 ° C over the past 5000 years. The well-known transition from the relatively warm Medieval into the “little ice age” turns out to be part of a much longer-term cooling, which ended abruptly with the rapid warming of the 20th Century. Within a hundred years, the cooling of the previous 5000 years was undone. (One result of this is, for example, that the famous iceman ‘Ötzi’, who disappeared under ice 5000 years ago, reappeared in 1991.)

The shape of the curve is probably not surprising to climate scientists as it fits with the forcing due to orbital cycles. Marcott et al. illustrate the orbital forcing with this graphic:


Figure 2 Changes in incoming solar radiation as a function of latitude in December, January and annual average, due to the astronomical Milankovitch cycles (known as orbital forcing). Source: Marcott et al., 2013.

In the bottom panel we see the sunlight averaged over the year, as it depends on time and latitude. It declined strongly in the mid to high latitudes over the Holocene, but increased slightly in the tropics. In the Marcott reconstruction the global temperature curve is dominated primarily by the large temperature changes in northern latitudes (30-90 °N). For this, the middle panel is particularly relevant: the summer maximum of the incoming radiation. That reduces massively during the Holocene – by more than 30 watts per square meter. (For comparison: the anthropogenic carbon dioxide in the atmosphere produces a radiative forcing of about 2 watts per square meter – albeit globally and throughout the year.) The climate system is particularly sensitive to this summer insolation, because it is amplified by the snow- and ice-albedo feedback. That is why in the Milankovi? theory summer insolation is the determining factor for the ice age cycles – the strong radiation maximum at the beginning of the Holocene is the reason why the ice masses of the last Ice Age disappeared.

However a puzzle remains: climate models don’t seem to get this cooling trend over the last 5,000 years. Maybe they are underestimating the feedbacks that amplify the northern orbital forcing shown in Fig. 2. Or maybe the proxy data do not properly represent the annual mean temperature but have a summer bias – as Fig. 2 shows, it is in summer that the solar radiation has declined so strongly since the mid-Holocene. As Gavin has just explained very nicely: a model-data mismatch is an opportunity to learn something new, but it takes work to find out what it is.

Comparison with the PAGES 2k reconstruction

The data used by Marcott et al. are different from those of the PAGES 2k project (which used land data only) mainly in that they come to 80% from deep-sea sediments. Sediments reach further back in time (far further than just through the Holocene – but that’s another story). Unlike tree-ring data, which are mainly suitable for the last two thousand years and rarely reach further. However, the sediment data have poorer time resolution and do not extend right up to the present, because the surface of the sediment is disturbed when the sediment core is taken. The methods of temperature reconstruction are very different from those used with the land data. For example, in sediment data the concentration of oxygen isotopes or the ratio of magnesium to calcium in the calcite shells of microscopic plankton are used, both of which show a good correlation with the water temperature. Thus each sediment core can be individually calibrated to obtain a temperature time series for each location.

Overall, the new Marcott reconstruction is largely independent of, and nicely complementary to, the PAGES 2k reconstruction: ocean instead of land, completely different methodology. Therefore, a comparison between the two is interesting:

Figure 3 The last two thousand years from Figure 1, in comparison to the PAGES 2k reconstruction (green), which was recently described here in detail. Graph: Klaus Bitterman.

As we can see, both reconstruction methods give consistent results. That the evolution of the last one thousand years is virtually identical is, by the way, yet another confirmation of the “hockey stick” by Mann et al. 1999, which is practically identical as well (see graph in my PAGES article).

Is the modern warming unique?

Because of the above-mentioned limitations of sediment cores, the new reconstruction does not reach the present but only goes to 1940, and the number of data curves used already strongly declines before that. (Hence we see the uncertainty range getting wider towards the end and the reconstructions with different averaging methods diverge there – we here show the RegEM method because it deals best with the decreasing data coverage. For a detailed analysis see the article by statistician Grant Foster.) The warming of the 20th Century can only be seen partially – but this is not serious, because this warming is very well documented by weather stations anyway. There can be no doubt about the climatic warming during the 20th Century.

There is a degree of flexibility on how the proxy data (blue) should be joined with the thermometer data (red) – here I’ve done this so that for the period 1000 to 1940 AD the average temperature of the Marcott curve and the PAGES 2k reconstruction are equal. I think this is better than the choice of Marcott et al. (whose paper was published before PAGES 2k) – but this is not important. The relative positioning of the curves makes a difference for whether the temperatures are slightly higher at the end than ever before in the Holocene, or only (as Marcott et al write) higher than during 85% of the Holocene. Let us just say they are roughly as high as during the Holocene optimum: maybe slightly cooler, maybe slightly warmer. This is not critical.

The important point is that the rapid rise in the 20th Century is unique throughout the Holocene. Whether this really is true has been intensively discussed in the blogs after the publication of the Marcott paper. Because the proxy data have only a coarse time resolution – would they have shown it if there had been a similarly rapid warming earlier in the Holocene?

I think for three reasons it is extremely likely that there was not such a rapid warming before:

1. There are a number of high-resolution proxy data series over the Holocene, none of which suggest that there was a previous warming spike as strong as in the 20th Century. Had there been such a global warming before, it would very likely have registered clearly in some of these data series, even if it didn’t show up in the averaged Marcott curve.

2. Grant Foster performed the test and hid some “20th C style” heating spikes in earlier parts of the proxy data to see whether they are revealed by the method of Marcott et al – the answer is a resounding yes, they would show up (albeit attenuated) in the averaged curve, see his article if you are interested in the details. [Update 18 Sept: one of our readers has confirmed this conclusion with a different method (Fourier filtering). Thanks!]

3. Such heating must have a physical basis, and it would have to have quickly disappeared again (would it have lasted, it would be even more evident in the proxy data). There is no evidence in the forcing data that such a climate forcing could have suddenly appeared and disappeared, and I cannot imagine what could have been the mechanism. (A CO2-induced warming would persist until the CO2 concentration decays again over thousands of years – and of course we have good data on the concentration of CO2 and other greenhouse gases for the whole Holocene.)

Conclusion

The curve (or better curves) of Marcott et al. will not be the last word on the global temperature history during the Holocene; like Mann et al. in 1998 it is the opening of the scientific discussion. There will certainly be alternative proposals, and here and there some corrections and improvements. However, I believe that (as was the case with Mann et al. for the last millennium) the basic shape will turn out to be robust: a relatively smooth curve with slow cooling trend lasting millennia from the Holocene optimum to the “little ice age”, mainly driven by the orbital cycles. At the end this cooling trend is abruptly reversed by the modern anthropogenic warming.

The following graph shows the Marcott reconstruction complemented by some context: the warming at the end of the last Ice Age (which 20,000 years ago reached its peak) and a medium projection for the expected warming in the 21st Century if humanity does not quickly reduce greenhouse gas emissions.


Figure 4 Global temperature variation since the last ice age 20,000 years ago, extended until 2100 for a medium emissions scenario with about 3 degrees of global warming. Graph: Jos Hagelaars.

Marcott et al. dryly state about this future prospect:

By 2100, global average temperatures will probably be 5 to 12 standard deviations above the Holocene temperature mean.

In other words: We are catapulting ourselves way out of the Holocene.

Just looking at the known drivers (climate forcings) and the actual temperature history shows it directly, without need for a climate model: without the increase in greenhouse gases caused by humans, the slow cooling trend would have continued. Thus virtually the entire warming of the 20th Century is due to man. This May, for the first time in at least a million years, the concentration of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere has exceeded the threshold of 400 ppm. If we do not stop this trend very soon, we will not recognize our Earth by the end of this century.

 Comments (pop-up) (66)



66 Responses to “Paleoclimate: The End of the Holocene”

1 2 Next »
  1. 1 Bouke says: 16 Sep 2013 at 5:59 AM

    At -80 latitude 12kybp, mean december insolation anomaly is negative, mean june insolation anomaly is neutral, but mean anual insolation anomaly is strongly positive. Something interesting must be happening in spring and/or autumn, can anyone elaborate?

  2. 2 Berényi Péter says: 16 Sep 2013 at 7:00 AM

    Any idea why error bars are getting substantially larger as present is approached? What’s happened to the Roman and Medieval warm periods? What’s happened to the cooling in between, when 9 m high ice ridges, coming from the Black sea, were towering over the walls of Byzantium (Istambul now)?

  3. 3 gareth says: 16 Sep 2013 at 8:35 AM

    @ Bouke
    Fig.1 (Climate forcing reconstructions for use in PMIP simulations of the last millennium (v1.0)9(2011)
    G. A. Schmidt .) Shows the much larger insolation changes around the eqinoxes than the solstices.(since CE 850)
    *
    gmd-4-33-2011.pdf

  4. 4 Nick says: 16 Sep 2013 at 8:50 AM

    On figure 3.

    Why do the error bounds on the right hand side increase?

    Surely with measurement of temperatures, the error bounds must decrease?

    ie. We know current temperatures accurately, but will be unsure of temperatures 10,000 years ago?

    [Response: The error bars on the Marcott et al work are because (unusually) there are less records included as you come up to the present. This is related to the difficultly in retrieving and dating the top of ocean sediment cores, while it is relatively easy to date the the termination of the glacial period (and beginning of the Holocene). – gavin]

  5. 5 HarryWiggs says: 16 Sep 2013 at 8:52 AM

    Berenyi, given your…track record…please show me the supporting data that shows this isn’t just something you’ve once again made up.

    “…when 9 m high ice ridges, coming from the Black sea, were towering over the walls of Byzantium (Istambul now)?”

  6. 6 timg56 says: 16 Sep 2013 at 10:13 AM

    Dr Schmidt,

    You say that the increase in uncertainty at the far end of the graph is due to few samples available. The authors have indicated that portion of their study is “not robust”. So why use it?

    When the results for the last few decades of a 2 millenial period are uncertain and not robust, including them risks the credibility of the entire study.

    [Response: Our opinions on this will obviously differ, but including the later points along with the uncertainties allows people to assess this for themselves. Plus inclusion of data that overlaps in time but does not have the same uncertainty (i.e. PAGES-2K, HadCRUT4) provides some context. Pointing out where parts of a reconstruction have more uncertainties than others adds to its credibility in my opinion. – gavin]

  7. 7 Chris Reynolds says: 16 Sep 2013 at 10:22 AM

    Marvellous stuff.

    Berényi Péter,

    Can’t you read graphs? There’s a bump between 0 and 1000AD, and the error bounds give enough wiggle room for the MWP and Roman Warm periods.

    Or is it that the wiggle room and bump isn’t large enough for your preconceptions?

  8. 8 stefan says: 16 Sep 2013 at 10:29 AM

    That portion of the data is shown for comparison – of course the instrumental measurements (shown in red in the first graph) are much more reliable for the modern time, as I discuss in the article. -stefan

  9. 9 Grunter says: 16 Sep 2013 at 11:01 AM

    Mon cher M. Berenyi,

    If you read the post carefully, both the reason for increasing error bars, and “what happened” to the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age are addressed — and they are in fact present in the graph (Fig. 1) — just not perhaps as you expected to see them, but as consistent with a long term trend.

    But I am remiss if my comment is actually troll-feed.

  10. 10 Axel says: 16 Sep 2013 at 11:12 AM

    Interesting post. So what about the 5000 year puzzle? You seem to leave this hanging or am I missing something?

    Thanks

  11. 11 Russell says: 16 Sep 2013 at 11:17 AM

    It would help to have a 10,000 year history of natural and anthropogenic albedo change as well.

  12. 12 KR says: 16 Sep 2013 at 11:44 AM

    I ran a Fourier filtering experiment using the Marcott et al reported frequency functions for their processing, and obtain results roughly identical to Grant Foster – any Holocene era temperature changes of a magnitude similar to current warming would indeed have shown up quite clearly in the Marcott analysis. (Not to mention that current warming simply won’t reverse/vanish on the same time-scale as it has ramped up, due to the persistence of CO2…)

    Modern warming indeed appears unique in the Holocene era.

  13. 13 Tad Boyd says: 16 Sep 2013 at 11:44 AM

    It appears from the graph (Figure 3 blue line) that the unique rapid rise started in the late 1800?s.

    1.) Does this suggest that humans were already putting out enough CO2 to cause global warming at that time?

    or

    2.) Even though the rapid rise is unique, it may have been natural (from the late 1800?s to 1940 – end of the blue line)?

    or

    3.) Something else… (my eyeballing of the graph was wrong, premise of my question was wrong, etc)?

    Thanks,

    Tad

    Note: this may be a duplicate. I noticed comments making it through moderation time stamped after I’d asked my question. Please delete if my original post actually made it and just hasn’t been moderated yet. Thanks.

  14. 14 Zeke Hausfather says: 16 Sep 2013 at 12:12 PM

    If I recall correctly, Marcott using the high frequency noise in the shorter Mann et al 2008 reconstruction to estimate what type of shorter-term variability might be removed over the whole holocene due to coarse proxy resolution. This yields his Figure 3, where they argue that the decade from 2000–2009 has not yet exceeded the warmest temperatures of the early Holocene (5,000 to 10,000 yr B.P.) but it is warmer than 72 percent of the record.

    I wonder if you could do a similar analysis, but look at a frequency density function of 100-year (or 50-year) trends instead of looking at a frequency density function of anomalies. Its not perfect, of course, as there is no reason to think that the Mann et al 2008 reconstruction is really characteristic of shorter term (< 400 year) variability throughout the holocene, but the results might be interesting. I strongly suspect they would show the recent period as somewhat unique.

  15. 15 Hank Roberts says: 16 Sep 2013 at 1:26 PM

    > the top of ocean sedimentary cores

    The top is almost always inhabited — the result is “bioturbation … rapid removal of sediments from the sediment surface (ingestion) followed by injection of this material (defecation) a few centimeters below the sediment surface. This process has significant implications for the age of surficial sediment and for discerning change in sediment contaminant concentrations following change in contaminant inputs.

    In an undisturbed site where nothing lives in the mud, you could get annual or even seasonal layers (varves“).

    It’s not a big problem. It’s one consideration when getting information out of core samples.

  16. 16 richard pauli says: 16 Sep 2013 at 2:08 PM

    I am a 64 year old man in fair health, with chronic progressive aches and pains. But if I take the average readings of my health from the recent thirty years of my life, one has to say that I am vital and strong. (cough, cough)

    And just this morning, I was thrilled to notice the water in my ice cube trays had frozen solid. After I add a little ethanol, I expect to greatly enjoy myself later on. But I dare not use either piece of evidence to prop up a deluded notion that I remain a young man on a cooling planet.

    Cheers !

  17. 17 Lawrence Dawson says: 16 Sep 2013 at 5:05 PM

    And so, unless we are able to do something about climate change, we shall be entering the obcene era.

  18. 18 Anonymous Coward says: 16 Sep 2013 at 5:42 PM

    Tad Boyd #13,

    “It appears from the graph (Figure 3 blue line) that the unique rapid rise started in the late 1800?s.
    1.) Does this suggest that humans were already putting out enough CO2 to cause global warming at that time?”

    Yes, but not enough for the resulting global warming to obviously jump out of the random variations.
    For context, here are a couple of graphs featuring relevant estimates:
    http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/emis/graphics/global.total.jpg
    http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/graphics/lawdome.gif
    You should generally not trust random graphs. Even if there’s a .gov in the URL suggesting they’re not simply made up, you shoudn’t trust the impression you get for eyeballing graphs that may have been chosen to produce a particular impression. However, this being realclimate, you may hopefully trust that misleading or badly outdated data will be shot down.

    Note that the more CO2 there is in the atmosphere, the less impact every additional mole has.
    Also note that deforestation had a large impact on atmospheric CO2 concentrations relative to the burning of fossil fuels before the end of the 19th century.

    “2.) Even though the rapid rise is unique, it may have been natural (from the late 1800?s to 1940 – end of the blue line)?”

    I’m not crazy about the word “natural” in this context because of the large impact of pre-industrical human activity.

    Obviously temperatures were already affected by elevated levels of CO2.
    But because there have been a lot of random variations, I’m not sure the circa 1875-1940 global warming was all that rapid or unique unless you consider it as part of the longer industrial-age warming trend which is of course remarkable indeed.
    But no doubt other commenters would have something more cogent to say on the matter.

  19. 19 David B. Benson says: 16 Sep 2013 at 8:56 PM

    Tad Boyd @13 — Anthropogenic changes to so-called natural climate trends began to be quite sizable with the clearing of forests in Europe and North America for ever increased agricultural fields. Coal, Satan’s cobbles, started being burned in appreciate quantities by 1750 CE and there was already appreciable heavy industry by about 1850 CE.

    That the trend in global temperature only becomes positive around 1880 CE is an indication of what is called climate inertia combined with the declining orbital forcing which had to be overcome.

  20. 20 owl905 says: 17 Sep 2013 at 2:21 AM

    “What’s happened to the Roman and Medieval warm periods? What’s happened to the cooling in between, when 9 m high ice ridges, coming from the Black sea, were towering over the walls of Byzantium (Istambul now)?”
    There were no ice ridges. And since the walls of Constantinople were 12 meters in height, a 9-meter ‘ice ridge’ wouldn’t ‘tower over them’. There were recorded episodes of the Marmara Sea icing over in the 1st century CE, the 4th century CE, and a succession of frozen sea winters from 800-1300 – but no 9meter ice ridges. Yavuz et. al. “The Frozen Bosphorus”, 2007.

  21. 21 andrew adams says: 17 Sep 2013 at 5:35 AM

    #9

    If you read the post carefully, both the reason for increasing error bars, and “what happened” to the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age are addressed — and they are in fact present in the graph (Fig. 1) — just not perhaps as you expected to see them, but as consistent with a long term trend.

    Yes, it occurred to me before that the Marcott reconstruction kind of puts the MWP into perspective. Prior to the last century it looks like we had a cooling trend of about 5k years, so it would be expected that temperatures in Medieval times would be warmer than in most of the last 700-800 years and, in the absence of modern anthropogenic warming, warmer than today.

    So if there was a temporary but slight deviation from the long term trend, and throw in a bit of regional variation, then it could well be the case that NH temps in medieval times were particularly warm, even approaching today’s levels (or exceeding them in some locations). But this would not be evidence that warming to the extent we have seen over the last century occurred naturally at that time without any human influence. I guess to be fair that it also counters the argument that the MWP is evidence for high climate sensitivity.

    Is this a fair interpretation?

  22. 22 MARodger says: 17 Sep 2013 at 6:33 AM

    Tad Boyd @13.

    Surely the one thing this post is at pains to point out is that it does not accurately propose the level at which temperatures began to turn and thus when “the unique rapid rise started” is also not on offer.
    However I think your point is that the driver of such a rise would have to be strong enough by 1940 to be responsible for the loin’s share of the 0.35C rise that we know from thermometers had occurred by 1940. (Note that HadCRUT4 shows (as graphed here) declining temperatures 1850-1908 and then a 0.47C rise to 1940.) Perhaps you are also wondering how far back such a driver would have a significant impact on temperature so as to start that “unique rapid rise.”

    If C02 is considered as that driver (not a ridiculous idea in principle, although it is more complicated than that as intimated @19) how much forcing and thus how much temperature rise could we expect from our CO2 emissions by, say, 1900 or 1940?
    On the back of a fag packet. From the graph presented by Scripps Institute CO2 measured from ice cores had risen 20ppm by 1900 or 16% of the CO2 rise to date. By 1940 35ppm = 30%. The forcing per ppm is greater at lower CO2 levels and the slower rate of CO2 rise would mean more of the forcing was potentially balanced by temperature rise. But, ignoring that, a simple pro rata rise per ppm yields +0.13C (1900) +0.24C (1940).
    Again very simplistically, if the wobbles from the Marcott et al reconstruction are seen as a possible size of natural low frequency wobbles of the order of 0.1C peak to peak, the idea that “the unique rapid rise” should have started before 1900 would fit with CO2 as the dominant driver. The size of natural high frequency wobbles may or may not be why HadCRUT4 shows a minimum in 1908. Certainly by 1940 a CO2 forcing would be dwarfing those natural low frequency wobbles and this appearing as a significant feature on a graph of millennial temperatures.

  23. 23 MARodger says: 17 Sep 2013 at 6:41 AM

    This lengthened reconstruction of global temperatures is no longer forming the shape of a hockey stick. Given hockey sticks are traditionally made from Mulberry and that Mulberry has a characteristic of growing slowly when mature (at least under natural circumstances), would it be fitting to christen the lengthened reconstruction developed here by Marcott et al as the “Mulberry Bough”.
    Although myself I would end the trace at 2012 with just a marker to show the 2100 projection, it surely would remain plain to any observer with half a brain that the spurt of growth we see on the end of that Mulberry Bough is not natural.

  24. 24 FP says: 17 Sep 2013 at 8:37 AM

    Are there any Geologists claiming that the planet has been warming for the last 11000 years? Were there ever any Geologists making that Claim? And have they revised their position recently similar to the way the Geological Society revised their position statement on recent warming ?

  25. 25 FP says: 17 Sep 2013 at 9:09 AM

    Here, is the AAPG claiming the earth to be warmer in the last 10,000 years…

    ” In recent decades global temperatures have risen. However, our planet has been far warmer and cooler today than many times in the geologic past, even within the past 10,000 years.”

    ~ What is their evidence of that? Or is their only argument: “Well, it could have happened, it is possible, and it could be hidden because the data is not granular… ” Or do they have real evidence?

  26. 26 Tad Boyd says: 17 Sep 2013 at 10:39 AM

    Tad Boyd @13

    Found that Gavin had replied to my question but it was sent to the borehole [#1300].

    [Response: Other people can chime in – but I think it’s more useful to think of the early 1800’s as being a time when shorter term natural forcings (particularly volcanoes and solar) were pushing climate cooler than the long term trend would imply. Without anthropogenic influences there would have been a recovery of sorts but only to the long term trend – what has actually happened is vastly different. – gavin]

    Thanks all for your responses.
    I’d had the idea that more recent (than pre-1900) very high human emissions of CO2 drove global warming (the SUV/Commercial air flight era). I was aware of the idea that human activity much earlier than that had started to bring about global warming but did not know if this was generally the view of actual climate scientists. I don’t usually comment because I’m not qualified to make a point, but occasionally do post a question to try to get clarification on what actual climate scientists believe vs. all the other ideas out there and have gotten good direction here at RealClimate (especially from Gavin).

    From other commenters that were kind enough to respond to my question I’ve gotten – we (humans) were warming the planet (offsetting cooling) early on (1700’s and 1800’s). Gavin indicates we would have seen a recovery of sorts without human influences but not what has actually happened.

    MARodger – You laid out the influences of 20ppm CO2 and 35ppm CO2 increases. (Note – in my reading when Stephan was talking about the unique rapid rise under Figure 3, I was focused on the Marcott et al. blue line and thought that was the context for his description but using HadCRU as the context for the unique rapid rise Stephan is talking about works too as the rapid rise pre 1940 in red, is even more dramatic). Your response helps a great deal to sharpen my clumsy question.

    Stefan and/or Gavin – I was assuming that the 1940 and before portion of the rise (Marcot et al. blue line, but HadCRU red line works too) was at least part of what Stefan was referring to as the unique rapid rise but MARodger has indicated my assumption is off in some manner so any instruction regarding that is appreciated. If my assumption is valid in some sense, is the uniqueness of the pre 1940 rapid rise the result of the human activity part of the 20ppm and 35ppm CO2 increases MARodger discusses?

    Sorry if MARodger’s response should have sufficed. It is possible I am in the <50% brain category. I do appreciate that actual climate scientists are willing to interact at this level helping separate what the scientists believe vs. the rest.

    Thanks,

    Tad

  27. 27 Hank Roberts says: 17 Sep 2013 at 11:02 AM

    > our planet has been far warmer and cooler today …

    The AAPG authors:
    http://www.aapg.org/eseries/StaticContent/AAPG_files/html/bio527.html

    Their approach starts and ends with politics and money, not climatology:
    http://www.kansasenergy.org/documents/Gerhard_slide_notes.doc

    Introduction to Geological Perspectives of Global Climate Change
    Power Point Presentation

    Lee C. Gerhard

    History has seen many memorable public confrontations between belief systems and science data. Despite the scientific merit of the data, belief systems are powerful endemic and forces against which science must struggle. Some modern examples are evolution and global climate change..

    Notes:

    Two versions of the presentation are included, one for scientists, without on-slide comment, and one for the lay public with some additional notation.

    These presentations will be updated as new information becomes available.

    The notes for the scientist version contain many of the base references; a reading list, partly annotated, is appended to this introduction.

    So — “evolution and climate change” — I wonder what he means by that?

  28. 28 James Cross says: 17 Sep 2013 at 12:40 PM

    In Fig 2 I am having a hard time reconciling Mean Dec and Mean Annual. The Mean June makes perfect sense – high insolation in N. Hemisphere extending to Arctic. The Mean Dec does not show high insolation in S. Hemisphere or Antarctic yet the Annual Mean then shows high insolation in Antarctic.

    Also, with the large solar forcing 8-10K ago “more than 30 watts per square meter” (in summer I assume) I would have expected even higher temperatures than modern 20th century. Why is that expectation wrong?

  29. 29 Bouke says: 18 Sep 2013 at 4:45 AM

    @26
    Quote from that .doc by Lee C. Gerhard:

    The mission of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), a United Nations organization, is not to study causes of climate change, but to document only one cause, human impacts on climate.

    Quote from the resolution that started the IPCC:

    [the UN] Endorses the action of the World Meteorological Organization and the United Nations Environment Programme in jointly establishing an Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change to provide internationally co-ordinated scientific assessments of the magnitude, timing and potential environmental and socio-economic impact of climate change and realistic response strategies

    When I read these two things, I get the urge to add Lee C. Gerhard to my list of intellectually bankrupt people.

  30. 30 Romain says: 18 Sep 2013 at 6:31 AM

    Bouke,
    Care to explain this extract from the “history” page of the ipcc.ch site.
    Nothing about NOT human-induced climate change…

    “Today the IPCC’s role is as defined in Principles Governing IPCC Work, “…to assess on a comprehensive, objective, open and transparent basis the scientific, technical and socio-economic information relevant to understanding the scientific basis of risk of human-induced climate change, its potential impacts and options for adaptation and mitigation. IPCC reports should be neutral with respect to policy, although they may need to deal objectively with scientific, technical and socio-economic factors relevant to the application of particular policies.”

    [Response: Understanding “the scientific basis of the risk of human-induced climate change” obviously requires knowing the context of natural climate change and variability – explaining the amount of space in the IPCC reports given to issues associated with paleo-climate, ENSO, the AMO, signal-to-noise calculations, detection and attribution etc. This idea that IPCC doesn’t look at internal variability or natural forcings is just bogus. – gavin]

  31. 31 Nick says: 18 Sep 2013 at 9:10 AM

    Why is the right hand side figure not in the center of the error bounds?

  32. 32 MARodger says: 18 Sep 2013 at 10:56 AM

    Further to comment @25-27.
    The actual slides are in this pdf. There is another version of notes & slides here. It dates back to 2007 and is very silly stuff.

  33. 33 Hank Roberts says: 18 Sep 2013 at 3:19 PM

    AAPG: http://www.searchanddiscovery.com/
    collection of papers and graphics.

    There may be some interesting material, e.g.

    Modeling Holocene Primary Productivity Changes in the Barents Sea

    we investigate organic carbon sedimentation patterns and surface water productivity changes in response to Holocene Previous HitclimateTop variability in northern high latitudes. We studied 197 surface sediment samples, 10 short (ca. 10-30 cm long) and 2 long (3-4 m) cores representing the last 10000 years in the western sector of the Barents Sea between Spitsbergen and the Norwegian mainland.

    The Barents Sea is a shallow (mean depth ca. 200 m) Arctic Ocean shelf sea which is partially covered by sea ice in the northeast in the winter. Warm, saline Atlantic water (AW) enters the Barents Sea in the southwest and flows east- and northward until it is subducted under cold, fresh Arctic water (ArW) which enters the Barents Sea from the northeast and flows southwestward. The region where the AW is subducted under the ArW is called the Polar Front (PF). Its position is mainly topographically controlled but also depends on the relative strengths of the two water masses. This is also the region of the winter ice margin. Previous research has shown that the Barents Sea is one of the most productive shelf seas in the world.

    We use OF-Mod 3D, an organic facies modeling software developed by SINTEF Petroleum Research, to reconstruct PP changes and organic carbon accumulation across the western Barents Sea throughout the past 10000 years. OF-Mod 3D is a predictive, process-based, forward-modeling tool used to calculate organic matter preservation in a 3D grid throughout the modeled domain. The surface sample data set is used to calibrate the model to the present-day situation and we will show the spatial distribution of modeled PP throughout the Barents Sea region. We include the position of the PF in the model as a northern boundary for PP during the winter and compare organic matter accumulation in the presence and absence of sea ice.

    AAPG Search and Discovery Article #120098©2013 AAPG Hedberg Conference Petroleum Systems: Modeling the Past, Planning the Future, Nice, France, October 1-5, 2012

  34. 34 Kevin McKinney says: 18 Sep 2013 at 3:33 PM

    #27–“I get the urge to add Lee C. Gerhard to my list of intellectually bankrupt people.”

    No obvious reason to resist the urge.

  35. 35 Hank Roberts says: 18 Sep 2013 at 6:07 PM

    Well, look around there first, don’t take the worst you can find and write off the rest unseen. That one’s a dinosaur, you expect those. They’re holdovers from the Antideluvian Age, er something.

    Petroleum geologists have to understand modeling and climate.

  36. 36 owl905 says: 18 Sep 2013 at 11:54 PM

    Keying off 26 and 27:
    Gerhard’s attempts a smear with “The mission of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), a United Nations organization, is not to study causes of climate change, but to document only one cause, human impacts on climate.”
    In a lay-down, he’s right. Our climate would not have nearly the focus, the research, the reviews, and the controversy, if it was just ‘understanding it all’. But while Gerhard thinks he’s exposing a secret agenda scam, he’s actually admitting that he can’t join the dots. He doesn’t understand that rising GHG pollution is contributing to a disruption of the climate so geologically sudden and ubiquitous in extent, that the parallels best matching it are extinction events. That’s exactly why the IPCC synthesizes a global state of the change every X years. Gerhard displays a kind of Victorian attitude that somehow if the IPCC just stopped talking about, it would be less of a problem.

  37. 37 wili says: 19 Sep 2013 at 2:59 AM

    MARodger @ 23: I was thinking the same thing, but what I see is more like a kind of ergonomically made scythe with a curved handle. (links to images seem to be too long for the filter)

    Meanwhile, on the topic of paleo-climate, Hansen has a new piece out in Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society A:

    http://m.rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/371/2001/20120294.full

    “Climate sensitivity, sea level and atmospheric carbon dioxide”

    Pretty sobering stuff. Here’s the discussion at CP:

    http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/09/17/1892241/hansen-climate-sensitivity-uninhabitable/

  38. 38 kainin says: 19 Sep 2013 at 7:22 AM

    #23 >Given hockey sticks are traditionally made from Mulberry…

    Hockey sticks were never made from mulberry…originally made from hop hornbeam (Ostrya virginiana), then later ash, birch, poplar, and willow. Mulberry is not a commercially viable wood.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_hockey_stick

  39. 39 Kevin McKinney says: 19 Sep 2013 at 7:41 AM

    #38–My initial reaction, too, but you’re not thinking of the correct type of hockey for this context:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_hockey_stick

    “1860s Hockey taken to India. Stickhead made shorter; move from Ash to Mulberry timber for the stick head.”

  40. 40 Romain says: 19 Sep 2013 at 11:25 AM

    Gavin,
    “This idea that IPCC doesn’t look at internal variability or natural forcings is just bogus.”
    Yes it’s bogus. Of course they look at it. Whether or not they FOCUS on it is the question.
    What is behind the quoted paragraph when you read it at face value is that this internal variability is just background (proof is, it’s not even mentioned). They say they assess impacts, mitigation and adaptation of HUMAN-induced climate change. Implying that the IPCC is here to confirm a preconceived theory/idea: HUMAN-induced climate change is the most important to care about. IPCC is not here to care about the impacts of natural variability. The scope of work is clear.
    I guess it is because internal variability had already been found to have negligible impact compared to human-induced at the time IPCC was created. But then I hear people saying: it’s hard for IPCC people to question the premises on which it has been created.

    [Response: This is just very strange. The IPCC is indeed designed to focus on the potential for anthropogenic impacts on climate and I don’t see what is so bad about that. The answer might well have been that there weren’t any important ones. Other review panels (on the Supersonic Stratospheric Transports etc.) come up with not much and are generally set aside – this happens all the time. The IPCC premise is that there is a potential issue worth investigating (a true statement), not that climate sensitivity is some fixed number or that natural variability is negligible. The idea that scientists would work on an assessment that they knew to be pointless is nuts. It’s not like these things are fun. – gavin]

  41. 41 David C. says: 19 Sep 2013 at 3:45 PM

    Can anyone point me to articles discussing the accuracy of the various proxies themselves? I apologize for my ignorance on this, but to me it seems our understanding of the relationship between the proxy data and temperature should be calibrated and tested against the observed temperature record. The error bars seem to indicate that we know the exact global temperature within 0.2 degrees C 1000 years ago, but where we have actual temperature data, the error margin is more than a degree (which more than covers the observed warming).

    In short, do the error bars indicate that science is 95% confident in the real global temperature to within less than 1 degree C for the last few thousand years, or that it is 95% confident that the proxies, using the best available techniques to calibrate calibrate with global temperature, is accurate to within 1 degree C?

  42. 42 owl905 says: 20 Sep 2013 at 1:04 AM

    @41 – Climate proxies

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_%28climate%29

  43. 43 Hank Roberts says: 20 Sep 2013 at 8:40 AM

    > David C.
    An explanation of that will either assume you did pass Statistics 101, or that you did not. Have you that background in statistics already? If not, some background is needed.

    You’ve run into a problem that confuses a lot of people.


    in 2005, a team led by Sarah Belia conducted a study of hundreds of researchers who had published articles in top psychology, neuroscience, and medical journals. Only a small portion of them could demonstrate accurate knowledge of how error bars relate to significance. If published researchers can’t do it, should we expect casual blog readers to?

    Confidence Intervals
    First off, we need to know the correct answer to the problem, which requires a bit of explanation….

    No, I’m not going to try to explain it, I’m a student here myself. Just sayin’, this is an area that takes serious effort to get even a fair idea of what they’re really saying.

    None of your paraphrases above seems, to me, close to the mark.

  44. 44 MARodger says: 20 Sep 2013 at 11:29 AM

    Tad Boyd @26.

    You do present your enquiries in an interesting way, so I don’t know but perhaps this might help. (Note that I am by no means a “climate scientist,” actual or otherwise.)

    Because Marcott et al only shows long-term fluctuations, a robust comparison between the blue shoot at the end of the Fig 3 trace and HadCRUT4 is always going to be difficult, especially with the Marcott et al error bars flying off so rapidly. And also note the comment in the post about the “flexibility” of such a “join” although this does not affect the size of the Marcott & the HadCRU rises.
    Perhaps to compare apples & apples, HadCRUT4 should be represented far less precisely, say by just 3 x 55-year averages. 1877 -0.32C, 1932 -0.19C, 1987 +0.16C. The BEST land temperature record suggests that HadCRUT4 is not showing all of this “strong rising trend” because it appeared to start earlier than 1850 in the BEST data. So, like the 5 final green dots from PAGE2K, the 1800-1940 0.25C rise in the Marcott et al blue trace is not far from what we see in the thermometer records.

    Thus far this analysis is fuzzing out the short term wobbles. But you perhaps allude to wondering how much of the pre-1940 temperature rise (presumably the 1910-40 period) is wobble and how much is “strong rising trend.”

    The climate forcings that lie behind the recent wobbles and the “strong rising trend” of HadCRUT4 can be calculated with varying accuracy. The graphs here by Sato et al presents forcings 1880 to date. Note the green plot – this is mostly but by no means all CO2 and that it is not flat back in 1880 (my point @26 with the +20ppm & +35ppm). This green plot is the big positive driver behind the “strong rising trend” but there are also very significant negative drivers.
    It is a major task of climatology to establish these forcings with more accuracy and to marry the forcings with the temperature record. While this work remains incomplete, there exists room for speculation about natural oscillations, speculation that deniers love to over-amplify into reasons for ignoring that green plot in the Sato et al graph. But my take-away from the Sato et al graph is that the green plot is a little too scary to be ignored.

  45. 45 Peter Smith says: 20 Sep 2013 at 8:04 PM

    For most of the time covered by these graphs, the thermal mechanism would appear to be more-or-less in a steady state, just quietly following various changes in the forcings. We do not appear to be in a steady state at the moment.
    If we assume the CO2 concentrations stay at the current levels, and if we ignore any positive feedback from methane and so on, is it possible to calculate what temperature we might get to, given enough time?

  46. 46 Anonymous Coward says: 21 Sep 2013 at 3:49 AM

    Peter Smith #45,
    That’s the big question; what the sensitivity metric was created for.
    Assuming all forcings (methane, smog and stuff) except CO2 at pre-industrial levels and atomspheric CO2 at the current level, “fast” feedbacks (such as snow cover but excluding the very slow melting of the large ice masses) should get the average global temperature to around 0.52 * sensitivity above the pre-industrial average (if I recall correctly).
    Now sensitivity is likely to turn out to be around 2 to 4 centigrades so (ignoring the many caveats) the answer you’re looking for would be between +.7 to +1.8 on the graph at the top of the page.

  47. 47 Jim Eager says: 21 Sep 2013 at 1:22 PM

    Re Peter Smith @ #45, it is instructive to look at what earth’s climate was like the last time its atmosphere contained 400 ppm CO2, which would be around 3 million years ago during the mid-Pliocene. Global mean temperature then was 2-3C higher than today (and much higher towards the poles), it’s thought there was a near constant El Nino state, and the West Antarctic ice sheet had collapsed, raising sea level by as much as 25 meters. That said, at about this time the Panama seaway closed, which dramatically changed ocean circulation patterns, and uplift of the Rocky Mountains was also taking place, so the mid-Pliocene is far from a perfect analogy.

  48. 48 John L says: 21 Sep 2013 at 8:39 PM

    I saw this headline in Science:

    Researchers Wary as DOE Bids to Build Sixth U.S. Climate Model

    http://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6151/1160.summary
    “Many researchers are excited about the nascent project, but others worry it could divert resources from existing collaborations.”

  49. 49 John Mashey says: 21 Sep 2013 at 9:18 PM

    Stefan: nice post, thanks.

    @29 Bouke, see DeSmogBlog entry for Lee C. Gerhard.

    All: keep an eye out for Bill Ruddiman’s Earth Transformed, which is supposed to be out in October (after some confusion about dates.) I think this sheds more light on the last ~8,000 years, relevant both to Marcott, et all and PAGES2K. Compared to past interglacials (when well-aligned, which took a lot of work), the usual slow CH4/CO2 downtrends had been slowed well before the Industrial Revolution started.

    The cover illustrates the part of the story that comes from Chinese rice paddy archaeology and methane curves compared to other interglacials.

    For anyone attending AGU in December, Bill will be giving the Tyndall Lecture.

  50. 50 pete best says: 22 Sep 2013 at 4:36 AM

    considering that humans have now emitted 550 billion tonnes of co2 to date and 1 trillion tonnes emitted brings about the 2C danger threshold (often spoken about by those concerned about such things)and we emit now around 33 billion tonnes rising at 2-3% per annum means that in just a few decades from now the trillion tonnes would have been passed.

    Is it all bad – probably not – but its not all good either and some will definitely suffer from increased flooding and droughts, food shortages and more than likely war as a consequence of such things occurring. It might already be occurring in Syria and Egypt due to food pressures caused by ACC.

    the higher the temperature gets the worse it will probably be although I am sure that places such as southern England can continue to reap the rewards of growing pinot noir and chardonnay grapes for sparking fizz.

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Paleoclimate: The End of the Holocene

Filed under: — stefan @ 16 September 2013 - ()

Recently a group of researchers from Harvard and Oregon State University has published the first global temperature reconstruction for the last 11,000 years – that’s the whole Holocene (Marcott et al. 2013). The results are striking and worthy of further discussion, after the authors have already commented on their results in this blog.


A while ago, I discussed here the new, comprehensive climate reconstruction from the PAGES 2k project for the past 2000 years. But what came before that? Does the long-term cooling trend that ruled most of the last two millennia reach even further back into the past?

Over the last decades, numerous researchers have painstakingly collected, analyzed, dated, and calibrated many data series that allow us to reconstruct climate before the age of direct measurements. Such data come e.g. from sediment drilling in the deep sea, from corals, ice cores and other sources. Shaun Marcott and colleagues for the first time assembled 73 such data sets from around the world into a global temperature reconstruction for the Holocene, published in Science. Or strictly speaking, many such reconstructions: they have tried about twenty different averaging methods and also carried out 1,000 Monte Carlo simulations with random errors added to the dating of the individual data series to demonstrate the robustness of their results.

To show the main result straight away, it looks like this:


Figure 1 Blue curve: Global temperature reconstruction from proxy data of Marcott et al, Science 2013. Shown here is the RegEM version – significant differences between the variants with different averaging methods arise only towards the end, where the number of proxy series decreases. This does not matter since the recent temperature evolution is well known from instrumental measurements, shown in red (global temperature from the instrumental HadCRU data). Graph: Klaus Bitterman.

The climate curve looks like a “hump”. At the beginning of the Holocene – after the end of the last Ice Age – global temperature increased, and subsequently it decreased again by 0.7 ° C over the past 5000 years. The well-known transition from the relatively warm Medieval into the “little ice age” turns out to be part of a much longer-term cooling, which ended abruptly with the rapid warming of the 20th Century. Within a hundred years, the cooling of the previous 5000 years was undone. (One result of this is, for example, that the famous iceman ‘Ötzi’, who disappeared under ice 5000 years ago, reappeared in 1991.)

The shape of the curve is probably not surprising to climate scientists as it fits with the forcing due to orbital cycles. Marcott et al. illustrate the orbital forcing with this graphic:


Figure 2 Changes in incoming solar radiation as a function of latitude in December, January and annual average, due to the astronomical Milankovitch cycles (known as orbital forcing). Source: Marcott et al., 2013.

In the bottom panel we see the sunlight averaged over the year, as it depends on time and latitude. It declined strongly in the mid to high latitudes over the Holocene, but increased slightly in the tropics. In the Marcott reconstruction the global temperature curve is dominated primarily by the large temperature changes in northern latitudes (30-90 °N). For this, the middle panel is particularly relevant: the summer maximum of the incoming radiation. That reduces massively during the Holocene – by more than 30 watts per square meter. (For comparison: the anthropogenic carbon dioxide in the atmosphere produces a radiative forcing of about 2 watts per square meter – albeit globally and throughout the year.) The climate system is particularly sensitive to this summer insolation, because it is amplified by the snow- and ice-albedo feedback. That is why in the Milankovi? theory summer insolation is the determining factor for the ice age cycles – the strong radiation maximum at the beginning of the Holocene is the reason why the ice masses of the last Ice Age disappeared.

However a puzzle remains: climate models don’t seem to get this cooling trend over the last 5,000 years. Maybe they are underestimating the feedbacks that amplify the northern orbital forcing shown in Fig. 2. Or maybe the proxy data do not properly represent the annual mean temperature but have a summer bias – as Fig. 2 shows, it is in summer that the solar radiation has declined so strongly since the mid-Holocene. As Gavin has just explained very nicely: a model-data mismatch is an opportunity to learn something new, but it takes work to find out what it is.

Comparison with the PAGES 2k reconstruction

The data used by Marcott et al. are different from those of the PAGES 2k project (which used land data only) mainly in that they come to 80% from deep-sea sediments. Sediments reach further back in time (far further than just through the Holocene – but that’s another story). Unlike tree-ring data, which are mainly suitable for the last two thousand years and rarely reach further. However, the sediment data have poorer time resolution and do not extend right up to the present, because the surface of the sediment is disturbed when the sediment core is taken. The methods of temperature reconstruction are very different from those used with the land data. For example, in sediment data the concentration of oxygen isotopes or the ratio of magnesium to calcium in the calcite shells of microscopic plankton are used, both of which show a good correlation with the water temperature. Thus each sediment core can be individually calibrated to obtain a temperature time series for each location.

Overall, the new Marcott reconstruction is largely independent of, and nicely complementary to, the PAGES 2k reconstruction: ocean instead of land, completely different methodology. Therefore, a comparison between the two is interesting:

Figure 3 The last two thousand years from Figure 1, in comparison to the PAGES 2k reconstruction (green), which was recently described here in detail. Graph: Klaus Bitterman.

As we can see, both reconstruction methods give consistent results. That the evolution of the last one thousand years is virtually identical is, by the way, yet another confirmation of the “hockey stick” by Mann et al. 1999, which is practically identical as well (see graph in my PAGES article).

Is the modern warming unique?

Because of the above-mentioned limitations of sediment cores, the new reconstruction does not reach the present but only goes to 1940, and the number of data curves used already strongly declines before that. (Hence we see the uncertainty range getting wider towards the end and the reconstructions with different averaging methods diverge there – we here show the RegEM method because it deals best with the decreasing data coverage. For a detailed analysis see the article by statistician Grant Foster.) The warming of the 20th Century can only be seen partially – but this is not serious, because this warming is very well documented by weather stations anyway. There can be no doubt about the climatic warming during the 20th Century.

There is a degree of flexibility on how the proxy data (blue) should be joined with the thermometer data (red) – here I’ve done this so that for the period 1000 to 1940 AD the average temperature of the Marcott curve and the PAGES 2k reconstruction are equal. I think this is better than the choice of Marcott et al. (whose paper was published before PAGES 2k) – but this is not important. The relative positioning of the curves makes a difference for whether the temperatures are slightly higher at the end than ever before in the Holocene, or only (as Marcott et al write) higher than during 85% of the Holocene. Let us just say they are roughly as high as during the Holocene optimum: maybe slightly cooler, maybe slightly warmer. This is not critical.

The important point is that the rapid rise in the 20th Century is unique throughout the Holocene. Whether this really is true has been intensively discussed in the blogs after the publication of the Marcott paper. Because the proxy data have only a coarse time resolution – would they have shown it if there had been a similarly rapid warming earlier in the Holocene?

I think for three reasons it is extremely likely that there was not such a rapid warming before:

1. There are a number of high-resolution proxy data series over the Holocene, none of which suggest that there was a previous warming spike as strong as in the 20th Century. Had there been such a global warming before, it would very likely have registered clearly in some of these data series, even if it didn’t show up in the averaged Marcott curve.

2. Grant Foster performed the test and hid some “20th C style” heating spikes in earlier parts of the proxy data to see whether they are revealed by the method of Marcott et al – the answer is a resounding yes, they would show up (albeit attenuated) in the averaged curve, see his article if you are interested in the details. [Update 18 Sept: one of our readers has confirmed this conclusion with a different method (Fourier filtering). Thanks!]

3. Such heating must have a physical basis, and it would have to have quickly disappeared again (would it have lasted, it would be even more evident in the proxy data). There is no evidence in the forcing data that such a climate forcing could have suddenly appeared and disappeared, and I cannot imagine what could have been the mechanism. (A CO2-induced warming would persist until the CO2 concentration decays again over thousands of years – and of course we have good data on the concentration of CO2 and other greenhouse gases for the whole Holocene.)

Conclusion

The curve (or better curves) of Marcott et al. will not be the last word on the global temperature history during the Holocene; like Mann et al. in 1998 it is the opening of the scientific discussion. There will certainly be alternative proposals, and here and there some corrections and improvements. However, I believe that (as was the case with Mann et al. for the last millennium) the basic shape will turn out to be robust: a relatively smooth curve with slow cooling trend lasting millennia from the Holocene optimum to the “little ice age”, mainly driven by the orbital cycles. At the end this cooling trend is abruptly reversed by the modern anthropogenic warming.

The following graph shows the Marcott reconstruction complemented by some context: the warming at the end of the last Ice Age (which 20,000 years ago reached its peak) and a medium projection for the expected warming in the 21st Century if humanity does not quickly reduce greenhouse gas emissions.


Figure 4 Global temperature variation since the last ice age 20,000 years ago, extended until 2100 for a medium emissions scenario with about 3 degrees of global warming. Graph: Jos Hagelaars.

Marcott et al. dryly state about this future prospect:

By 2100, global average temperatures will probably be 5 to 12 standard deviations above the Holocene temperature mean.

In other words: We are catapulting ourselves way out of the Holocene.

Just looking at the known drivers (climate forcings) and the actual temperature history shows it directly, without need for a climate model: without the increase in greenhouse gases caused by humans, the slow cooling trend would have continued. Thus virtually the entire warming of the 20th Century is due to man. This May, for the first time in at least a million years, the concentration of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere has exceeded the threshold of 400 ppm. If we do not stop this trend very soon, we will not recognize our Earth by the end of this century.

 Comments (pop-up) (66)



66 Responses to “Paleoclimate: The End of the Holocene”

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  1. 1 Bouke says: 16 Sep 2013 at 5:59 AM

    At -80 latitude 12kybp, mean december insolation anomaly is negative, mean june insolation anomaly is neutral, but mean anual insolation anomaly is strongly positive. Something interesting must be happening in spring and/or autumn, can anyone elaborate?

  2. 2 Berényi Péter says: 16 Sep 2013 at 7:00 AM

    Any idea why error bars are getting substantially larger as present is approached? What’s happened to the Roman and Medieval warm periods? What’s happened to the cooling in between, when 9 m high ice ridges, coming from the Black sea, were towering over the walls of Byzantium (Istambul now)?

  3. 3 gareth says: 16 Sep 2013 at 8:35 AM

    @ Bouke
    Fig.1 (Climate forcing reconstructions for use in PMIP simulations of the last millennium (v1.0)9(2011)
    G. A. Schmidt .) Shows the much larger insolation changes around the eqinoxes than the solstices.(since CE 850)
    *
    gmd-4-33-2011.pdf

  4. 4 Nick says: 16 Sep 2013 at 8:50 AM

    On figure 3.

    Why do the error bounds on the right hand side increase?

    Surely with measurement of temperatures, the error bounds must decrease?

    ie. We know current temperatures accurately, but will be unsure of temperatures 10,000 years ago?

    [Response: The error bars on the Marcott et al work are because (unusually) there are less records included as you come up to the present. This is related to the difficultly in retrieving and dating the top of ocean sediment cores, while it is relatively easy to date the the termination of the glacial period (and beginning of the Holocene). – gavin]

  5. 5 HarryWiggs says: 16 Sep 2013 at 8:52 AM

    Berenyi, given your…track record…please show me the supporting data that shows this isn’t just something you’ve once again made up.

    “…when 9 m high ice ridges, coming from the Black sea, were towering over the walls of Byzantium (Istambul now)?”

  6. 6 timg56 says: 16 Sep 2013 at 10:13 AM

    Dr Schmidt,

    You say that the increase in uncertainty at the far end of the graph is due to few samples available. The authors have indicated that portion of their study is “not robust”. So why use it?

    When the results for the last few decades of a 2 millenial period are uncertain and not robust, including them risks the credibility of the entire study.

    [Response: Our opinions on this will obviously differ, but including the later points along with the uncertainties allows people to assess this for themselves. Plus inclusion of data that overlaps in time but does not have the same uncertainty (i.e. PAGES-2K, HadCRUT4) provides some context. Pointing out where parts of a reconstruction have more uncertainties than others adds to its credibility in my opinion. – gavin]

  7. 7 Chris Reynolds says: 16 Sep 2013 at 10:22 AM

    Marvellous stuff.

    Berényi Péter,

    Can’t you read graphs? There’s a bump between 0 and 1000AD, and the error bounds give enough wiggle room for the MWP and Roman Warm periods.

    Or is it that the wiggle room and bump isn’t large enough for your preconceptions?

  8. 8 stefan says: 16 Sep 2013 at 10:29 AM

    That portion of the data is shown for comparison – of course the instrumental measurements (shown in red in the first graph) are much more reliable for the modern time, as I discuss in the article. -stefan

  9. 9 Grunter says: 16 Sep 2013 at 11:01 AM

    Mon cher M. Berenyi,

    If you read the post carefully, both the reason for increasing error bars, and “what happened” to the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age are addressed — and they are in fact present in the graph (Fig. 1) — just not perhaps as you expected to see them, but as consistent with a long term trend.

    But I am remiss if my comment is actually troll-feed.

  10. 10 Axel says: 16 Sep 2013 at 11:12 AM

    Interesting post. So what about the 5000 year puzzle? You seem to leave this hanging or am I missing something?

    Thanks

  11. 11 Russell says: 16 Sep 2013 at 11:17 AM

    It would help to have a 10,000 year history of natural and anthropogenic albedo change as well.

  12. 12 KR says: 16 Sep 2013 at 11:44 AM

    I ran a Fourier filtering experiment using the Marcott et al reported frequency functions for their processing, and obtain results roughly identical to Grant Foster – any Holocene era temperature changes of a magnitude similar to current warming would indeed have shown up quite clearly in the Marcott analysis. (Not to mention that current warming simply won’t reverse/vanish on the same time-scale as it has ramped up, due to the persistence of CO2…)

    Modern warming indeed appears unique in the Holocene era.

  13. 13 Tad Boyd says: 16 Sep 2013 at 11:44 AM

    It appears from the graph (Figure 3 blue line) that the unique rapid rise started in the late 1800?s.

    1.) Does this suggest that humans were already putting out enough CO2 to cause global warming at that time?

    or

    2.) Even though the rapid rise is unique, it may have been natural (from the late 1800?s to 1940 – end of the blue line)?

    or

    3.) Something else… (my eyeballing of the graph was wrong, premise of my question was wrong, etc)?

    Thanks,

    Tad

    Note: this may be a duplicate. I noticed comments making it through moderation time stamped after I’d asked my question. Please delete if my original post actually made it and just hasn’t been moderated yet. Thanks.

  14. 14 Zeke Hausfather says: 16 Sep 2013 at 12:12 PM

    If I recall correctly, Marcott using the high frequency noise in the shorter Mann et al 2008 reconstruction to estimate what type of shorter-term variability might be removed over the whole holocene due to coarse proxy resolution. This yields his Figure 3, where they argue that the decade from 2000–2009 has not yet exceeded the warmest temperatures of the early Holocene (5,000 to 10,000 yr B.P.) but it is warmer than 72 percent of the record.

    I wonder if you could do a similar analysis, but look at a frequency density function of 100-year (or 50-year) trends instead of looking at a frequency density function of anomalies. Its not perfect, of course, as there is no reason to think that the Mann et al 2008 reconstruction is really characteristic of shorter term (< 400 year) variability throughout the holocene, but the results might be interesting. I strongly suspect they would show the recent period as somewhat unique.

  15. 15 Hank Roberts says: 16 Sep 2013 at 1:26 PM

    > the top of ocean sedimentary cores

    The top is almost always inhabited — the result is “bioturbation … rapid removal of sediments from the sediment surface (ingestion) followed by injection of this material (defecation) a few centimeters below the sediment surface. This process has significant implications for the age of surficial sediment and for discerning change in sediment contaminant concentrations following change in contaminant inputs.

    In an undisturbed site where nothing lives in the mud, you could get annual or even seasonal layers (varves“).

    It’s not a big problem. It’s one consideration when getting information out of core samples.

  16. 16 richard pauli says: 16 Sep 2013 at 2:08 PM

    I am a 64 year old man in fair health, with chronic progressive aches and pains. But if I take the average readings of my health from the recent thirty years of my life, one has to say that I am vital and strong. (cough, cough)

    And just this morning, I was thrilled to notice the water in my ice cube trays had frozen solid. After I add a little ethanol, I expect to greatly enjoy myself later on. But I dare not use either piece of evidence to prop up a deluded notion that I remain a young man on a cooling planet.

    Cheers !

  17. 17 Lawrence Dawson says: 16 Sep 2013 at 5:05 PM

    And so, unless we are able to do something about climate change, we shall be entering the obcene era.

  18. 18 Anonymous Coward says: 16 Sep 2013 at 5:42 PM

    Tad Boyd #13,

    “It appears from the graph (Figure 3 blue line) that the unique rapid rise started in the late 1800?s.
    1.) Does this suggest that humans were already putting out enough CO2 to cause global warming at that time?”

    Yes, but not enough for the resulting global warming to obviously jump out of the random variations.
    For context, here are a couple of graphs featuring relevant estimates:
    http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/emis/graphics/global.total.jpg
    http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/graphics/lawdome.gif
    You should generally not trust random graphs. Even if there’s a .gov in the URL suggesting they’re not simply made up, you shoudn’t trust the impression you get for eyeballing graphs that may have been chosen to produce a particular impression. However, this being realclimate, you may hopefully trust that misleading or badly outdated data will be shot down.

    Note that the more CO2 there is in the atmosphere, the less impact every additional mole has.
    Also note that deforestation had a large impact on atmospheric CO2 concentrations relative to the burning of fossil fuels before the end of the 19th century.

    “2.) Even though the rapid rise is unique, it may have been natural (from the late 1800?s to 1940 – end of the blue line)?”

    I’m not crazy about the word “natural” in this context because of the large impact of pre-industrical human activity.

    Obviously temperatures were already affected by elevated levels of CO2.
    But because there have been a lot of random variations, I’m not sure the circa 1875-1940 global warming was all that rapid or unique unless you consider it as part of the longer industrial-age warming trend which is of course remarkable indeed.
    But no doubt other commenters would have something more cogent to say on the matter.

  19. 19 David B. Benson says: 16 Sep 2013 at 8:56 PM

    Tad Boyd @13 — Anthropogenic changes to so-called natural climate trends began to be quite sizable with the clearing of forests in Europe and North America for ever increased agricultural fields. Coal, Satan’s cobbles, started being burned in appreciate quantities by 1750 CE and there was already appreciable heavy industry by about 1850 CE.

    That the trend in global temperature only becomes positive around 1880 CE is an indication of what is called climate inertia combined with the declining orbital forcing which had to be overcome.

  20. 20 owl905 says: 17 Sep 2013 at 2:21 AM

    “What’s happened to the Roman and Medieval warm periods? What’s happened to the cooling in between, when 9 m high ice ridges, coming from the Black sea, were towering over the walls of Byzantium (Istambul now)?”
    There were no ice ridges. And since the walls of Constantinople were 12 meters in height, a 9-meter ‘ice ridge’ wouldn’t ‘tower over them’. There were recorded episodes of the Marmara Sea icing over in the 1st century CE, the 4th century CE, and a succession of frozen sea winters from 800-1300 – but no 9meter ice ridges. Yavuz et. al. “The Frozen Bosphorus”, 2007.

  21. 21 andrew adams says: 17 Sep 2013 at 5:35 AM

    #9

    If you read the post carefully, both the reason for increasing error bars, and “what happened” to the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age are addressed — and they are in fact present in the graph (Fig. 1) — just not perhaps as you expected to see them, but as consistent with a long term trend.

    Yes, it occurred to me before that the Marcott reconstruction kind of puts the MWP into perspective. Prior to the last century it looks like we had a cooling trend of about 5k years, so it would be expected that temperatures in Medieval times would be warmer than in most of the last 700-800 years and, in the absence of modern anthropogenic warming, warmer than today.

    So if there was a temporary but slight deviation from the long term trend, and throw in a bit of regional variation, then it could well be the case that NH temps in medieval times were particularly warm, even approaching today’s levels (or exceeding them in some locations). But this would not be evidence that warming to the extent we have seen over the last century occurred naturally at that time without any human influence. I guess to be fair that it also counters the argument that the MWP is evidence for high climate sensitivity.

    Is this a fair interpretation?

  22. 22 MARodger says: 17 Sep 2013 at 6:33 AM

    Tad Boyd @13.

    Surely the one thing this post is at pains to point out is that it does not accurately propose the level at which temperatures began to turn and thus when “the unique rapid rise started” is also not on offer.
    However I think your point is that the driver of such a rise would have to be strong enough by 1940 to be responsible for the loin’s share of the 0.35C rise that we know from thermometers had occurred by 1940. (Note that HadCRUT4 shows (as graphed here) declining temperatures 1850-1908 and then a 0.47C rise to 1940.) Perhaps you are also wondering how far back such a driver would have a significant impact on temperature so as to start that “unique rapid rise.”

    If C02 is considered as that driver (not a ridiculous idea in principle, although it is more complicated than that as intimated @19) how much forcing and thus how much temperature rise could we expect from our CO2 emissions by, say, 1900 or 1940?
    On the back of a fag packet. From the graph presented by Scripps Institute CO2 measured from ice cores had risen 20ppm by 1900 or 16% of the CO2 rise to date. By 1940 35ppm = 30%. The forcing per ppm is greater at lower CO2 levels and the slower rate of CO2 rise would mean more of the forcing was potentially balanced by temperature rise. But, ignoring that, a simple pro rata rise per ppm yields +0.13C (1900) +0.24C (1940).
    Again very simplistically, if the wobbles from the Marcott et al reconstruction are seen as a possible size of natural low frequency wobbles of the order of 0.1C peak to peak, the idea that “the unique rapid rise” should have started before 1900 would fit with CO2 as the dominant driver. The size of natural high frequency wobbles may or may not be why HadCRUT4 shows a minimum in 1908. Certainly by 1940 a CO2 forcing would be dwarfing those natural low frequency wobbles and this appearing as a significant feature on a graph of millennial temperatures.

  23. 23 MARodger says: 17 Sep 2013 at 6:41 AM

    This lengthened reconstruction of global temperatures is no longer forming the shape of a hockey stick. Given hockey sticks are traditionally made from Mulberry and that Mulberry has a characteristic of growing slowly when mature (at least under natural circumstances), would it be fitting to christen the lengthened reconstruction developed here by Marcott et al as the “Mulberry Bough”.
    Although myself I would end the trace at 2012 with just a marker to show the 2100 projection, it surely would remain plain to any observer with half a brain that the spurt of growth we see on the end of that Mulberry Bough is not natural.

  24. 24 FP says: 17 Sep 2013 at 8:37 AM

    Are there any Geologists claiming that the planet has been warming for the last 11000 years? Were there ever any Geologists making that Claim? And have they revised their position recently similar to the way the Geological Society revised their position statement on recent warming ?

  25. 25 FP says: 17 Sep 2013 at 9:09 AM

    Here, is the AAPG claiming the earth to be warmer in the last 10,000 years…

    ” In recent decades global temperatures have risen. However, our planet has been far warmer and cooler today than many times in the geologic past, even within the past 10,000 years.”

    ~ What is their evidence of that? Or is their only argument: “Well, it could have happened, it is possible, and it could be hidden because the data is not granular… ” Or do they have real evidence?

  26. 26 Tad Boyd says: 17 Sep 2013 at 10:39 AM

    Tad Boyd @13

    Found that Gavin had replied to my question but it was sent to the borehole [#1300].

    [Response: Other people can chime in – but I think it’s more useful to think of the early 1800’s as being a time when shorter term natural forcings (particularly volcanoes and solar) were pushing climate cooler than the long term trend would imply. Without anthropogenic influences there would have been a recovery of sorts but only to the long term trend – what has actually happened is vastly different. – gavin]

    Thanks all for your responses.
    I’d had the idea that more recent (than pre-1900) very high human emissions of CO2 drove global warming (the SUV/Commercial air flight era). I was aware of the idea that human activity much earlier than that had started to bring about global warming but did not know if this was generally the view of actual climate scientists. I don’t usually comment because I’m not qualified to make a point, but occasionally do post a question to try to get clarification on what actual climate scientists believe vs. all the other ideas out there and have gotten good direction here at RealClimate (especially from Gavin).

    From other commenters that were kind enough to respond to my question I’ve gotten – we (humans) were warming the planet (offsetting cooling) early on (1700’s and 1800’s). Gavin indicates we would have seen a recovery of sorts without human influences but not what has actually happened.

    MARodger – You laid out the influences of 20ppm CO2 and 35ppm CO2 increases. (Note – in my reading when Stephan was talking about the unique rapid rise under Figure 3, I was focused on the Marcott et al. blue line and thought that was the context for his description but using HadCRU as the context for the unique rapid rise Stephan is talking about works too as the rapid rise pre 1940 in red, is even more dramatic). Your response helps a great deal to sharpen my clumsy question.

    Stefan and/or Gavin – I was assuming that the 1940 and before portion of the rise (Marcot et al. blue line, but HadCRU red line works too) was at least part of what Stefan was referring to as the unique rapid rise but MARodger has indicated my assumption is off in some manner so any instruction regarding that is appreciated. If my assumption is valid in some sense, is the uniqueness of the pre 1940 rapid rise the result of the human activity part of the 20ppm and 35ppm CO2 increases MARodger discusses?

    Sorry if MARodger’s response should have sufficed. It is possible I am in the <50% brain category. I do appreciate that actual climate scientists are willing to interact at this level helping separate what the scientists believe vs. the rest.

    Thanks,

    Tad

  27. 27 Hank Roberts says: 17 Sep 2013 at 11:02 AM

    > our planet has been far warmer and cooler today …

    The AAPG authors:
    http://www.aapg.org/eseries/StaticContent/AAPG_files/html/bio527.html

    Their approach starts and ends with politics and money, not climatology:
    http://www.kansasenergy.org/documents/Gerhard_slide_notes.doc

    Introduction to Geological Perspectives of Global Climate Change
    Power Point Presentation

    Lee C. Gerhard

    History has seen many memorable public confrontations between belief systems and science data. Despite the scientific merit of the data, belief systems are powerful endemic and forces against which science must struggle. Some modern examples are evolution and global climate change..

    Notes:

    Two versions of the presentation are included, one for scientists, without on-slide comment, and one for the lay public with some additional notation.

    These presentations will be updated as new information becomes available.

    The notes for the scientist version contain many of the base references; a reading list, partly annotated, is appended to this introduction.

    So — “evolution and climate change” — I wonder what he means by that?

  28. 28 James Cross says: 17 Sep 2013 at 12:40 PM

    In Fig 2 I am having a hard time reconciling Mean Dec and Mean Annual. The Mean June makes perfect sense – high insolation in N. Hemisphere extending to Arctic. The Mean Dec does not show high insolation in S. Hemisphere or Antarctic yet the Annual Mean then shows high insolation in Antarctic.

    Also, with the large solar forcing 8-10K ago “more than 30 watts per square meter” (in summer I assume) I would have expected even higher temperatures than modern 20th century. Why is that expectation wrong?

  29. 29 Bouke says: 18 Sep 2013 at 4:45 AM

    @26
    Quote from that .doc by Lee C. Gerhard:

    The mission of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), a United Nations organization, is not to study causes of climate change, but to document only one cause, human impacts on climate.

    Quote from the resolution that started the IPCC:

    [the UN] Endorses the action of the World Meteorological Organization and the United Nations Environment Programme in jointly establishing an Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change to provide internationally co-ordinated scientific assessments of the magnitude, timing and potential environmental and socio-economic impact of climate change and realistic response strategies

    When I read these two things, I get the urge to add Lee C. Gerhard to my list of intellectually bankrupt people.

  30. 30 Romain says: 18 Sep 2013 at 6:31 AM

    Bouke,
    Care to explain this extract from the “history” page of the ipcc.ch site.
    Nothing about NOT human-induced climate change…

    “Today the IPCC’s role is as defined in Principles Governing IPCC Work, “…to assess on a comprehensive, objective, open and transparent basis the scientific, technical and socio-economic information relevant to understanding the scientific basis of risk of human-induced climate change, its potential impacts and options for adaptation and mitigation. IPCC reports should be neutral with respect to policy, although they may need to deal objectively with scientific, technical and socio-economic factors relevant to the application of particular policies.”

    [Response: Understanding “the scientific basis of the risk of human-induced climate change” obviously requires knowing the context of natural climate change and variability – explaining the amount of space in the IPCC reports given to issues associated with paleo-climate, ENSO, the AMO, signal-to-noise calculations, detection and attribution etc. This idea that IPCC doesn’t look at internal variability or natural forcings is just bogus. – gavin]

  31. 31 Nick says: 18 Sep 2013 at 9:10 AM

    Why is the right hand side figure not in the center of the error bounds?

  32. 32 MARodger says: 18 Sep 2013 at 10:56 AM

    Further to comment @25-27.
    The actual slides are in this pdf. There is another version of notes & slides here. It dates back to 2007 and is very silly stuff.

  33. 33 Hank Roberts says: 18 Sep 2013 at 3:19 PM

    AAPG: http://www.searchanddiscovery.com/
    collection of papers and graphics.

    There may be some interesting material, e.g.

    Modeling Holocene Primary Productivity Changes in the Barents Sea

    we investigate organic carbon sedimentation patterns and surface water productivity changes in response to Holocene Previous HitclimateTop variability in northern high latitudes. We studied 197 surface sediment samples, 10 short (ca. 10-30 cm long) and 2 long (3-4 m) cores representing the last 10000 years in the western sector of the Barents Sea between Spitsbergen and the Norwegian mainland.

    The Barents Sea is a shallow (mean depth ca. 200 m) Arctic Ocean shelf sea which is partially covered by sea ice in the northeast in the winter. Warm, saline Atlantic water (AW) enters the Barents Sea in the southwest and flows east- and northward until it is subducted under cold, fresh Arctic water (ArW) which enters the Barents Sea from the northeast and flows southwestward. The region where the AW is subducted under the ArW is called the Polar Front (PF). Its position is mainly topographically controlled but also depends on the relative strengths of the two water masses. This is also the region of the winter ice margin. Previous research has shown that the Barents Sea is one of the most productive shelf seas in the world.

    We use OF-Mod 3D, an organic facies modeling software developed by SINTEF Petroleum Research, to reconstruct PP changes and organic carbon accumulation across the western Barents Sea throughout the past 10000 years. OF-Mod 3D is a predictive, process-based, forward-modeling tool used to calculate organic matter preservation in a 3D grid throughout the modeled domain. The surface sample data set is used to calibrate the model to the present-day situation and we will show the spatial distribution of modeled PP throughout the Barents Sea region. We include the position of the PF in the model as a northern boundary for PP during the winter and compare organic matter accumulation in the presence and absence of sea ice.

    AAPG Search and Discovery Article #120098©2013 AAPG Hedberg Conference Petroleum Systems: Modeling the Past, Planning the Future, Nice, France, October 1-5, 2012

  34. 34 Kevin McKinney says: 18 Sep 2013 at 3:33 PM

    #27–“I get the urge to add Lee C. Gerhard to my list of intellectually bankrupt people.”

    No obvious reason to resist the urge.

  35. 35 Hank Roberts says: 18 Sep 2013 at 6:07 PM

    Well, look around there first, don’t take the worst you can find and write off the rest unseen. That one’s a dinosaur, you expect those. They’re holdovers from the Antideluvian Age, er something.

    Petroleum geologists have to understand modeling and climate.

  36. 36 owl905 says: 18 Sep 2013 at 11:54 PM

    Keying off 26 and 27:
    Gerhard’s attempts a smear with “The mission of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), a United Nations organization, is not to study causes of climate change, but to document only one cause, human impacts on climate.”
    In a lay-down, he’s right. Our climate would not have nearly the focus, the research, the reviews, and the controversy, if it was just ‘understanding it all’. But while Gerhard thinks he’s exposing a secret agenda scam, he’s actually admitting that he can’t join the dots. He doesn’t understand that rising GHG pollution is contributing to a disruption of the climate so geologically sudden and ubiquitous in extent, that the parallels best matching it are extinction events. That’s exactly why the IPCC synthesizes a global state of the change every X years. Gerhard displays a kind of Victorian attitude that somehow if the IPCC just stopped talking about, it would be less of a problem.

  37. 37 wili says: 19 Sep 2013 at 2:59 AM

    MARodger @ 23: I was thinking the same thing, but what I see is more like a kind of ergonomically made scythe with a curved handle. (links to images seem to be too long for the filter)

    Meanwhile, on the topic of paleo-climate, Hansen has a new piece out in Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society A:

    http://m.rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/371/2001/20120294.full

    “Climate sensitivity, sea level and atmospheric carbon dioxide”

    Pretty sobering stuff. Here’s the discussion at CP:

    http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/09/17/1892241/hansen-climate-sensitivity-uninhabitable/

  38. 38 kainin says: 19 Sep 2013 at 7:22 AM

    #23 >Given hockey sticks are traditionally made from Mulberry…

    Hockey sticks were never made from mulberry…originally made from hop hornbeam (Ostrya virginiana), then later ash, birch, poplar, and willow. Mulberry is not a commercially viable wood.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_hockey_stick

  39. 39 Kevin McKinney says: 19 Sep 2013 at 7:41 AM

    #38–My initial reaction, too, but you’re not thinking of the correct type of hockey for this context:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_hockey_stick

    “1860s Hockey taken to India. Stickhead made shorter; move from Ash to Mulberry timber for the stick head.”

  40. 40 Romain says: 19 Sep 2013 at 11:25 AM

    Gavin,
    “This idea that IPCC doesn’t look at internal variability or natural forcings is just bogus.”
    Yes it’s bogus. Of course they look at it. Whether or not they FOCUS on it is the question.
    What is behind the quoted paragraph when you read it at face value is that this internal variability is just background (proof is, it’s not even mentioned). They say they assess impacts, mitigation and adaptation of HUMAN-induced climate change. Implying that the IPCC is here to confirm a preconceived theory/idea: HUMAN-induced climate change is the most important to care about. IPCC is not here to care about the impacts of natural variability. The scope of work is clear.
    I guess it is because internal variability had already been found to have negligible impact compared to human-induced at the time IPCC was created. But then I hear people saying: it’s hard for IPCC people to question the premises on which it has been created.

    [Response: This is just very strange. The IPCC is indeed designed to focus on the potential for anthropogenic impacts on climate and I don’t see what is so bad about that. The answer might well have been that there weren’t any important ones. Other review panels (on the Supersonic Stratospheric Transports etc.) come up with not much and are generally set aside – this happens all the time. The IPCC premise is that there is a potential issue worth investigating (a true statement), not that climate sensitivity is some fixed number or that natural variability is negligible. The idea that scientists would work on an assessment that they knew to be pointless is nuts. It’s not like these things are fun. – gavin]

  41. 41 David C. says: 19 Sep 2013 at 3:45 PM

    Can anyone point me to articles discussing the accuracy of the various proxies themselves? I apologize for my ignorance on this, but to me it seems our understanding of the relationship between the proxy data and temperature should be calibrated and tested against the observed temperature record. The error bars seem to indicate that we know the exact global temperature within 0.2 degrees C 1000 years ago, but where we have actual temperature data, the error margin is more than a degree (which more than covers the observed warming).

    In short, do the error bars indicate that science is 95% confident in the real global temperature to within less than 1 degree C for the last few thousand years, or that it is 95% confident that the proxies, using the best available techniques to calibrate calibrate with global temperature, is accurate to within 1 degree C?

  42. 42 owl905 says: 20 Sep 2013 at 1:04 AM

    @41 – Climate proxies

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_%28climate%29

  43. 43 Hank Roberts says: 20 Sep 2013 at 8:40 AM

    > David C.
    An explanation of that will either assume you did pass Statistics 101, or that you did not. Have you that background in statistics already? If not, some background is needed.

    You’ve run into a problem that confuses a lot of people.


    in 2005, a team led by Sarah Belia conducted a study of hundreds of researchers who had published articles in top psychology, neuroscience, and medical journals. Only a small portion of them could demonstrate accurate knowledge of how error bars relate to significance. If published researchers can’t do it, should we expect casual blog readers to?

    Confidence Intervals
    First off, we need to know the correct answer to the problem, which requires a bit of explanation….

    No, I’m not going to try to explain it, I’m a student here myself. Just sayin’, this is an area that takes serious effort to get even a fair idea of what they’re really saying.

    None of your paraphrases above seems, to me, close to the mark.

  44. 44 MARodger says: 20 Sep 2013 at 11:29 AM

    Tad Boyd @26.

    You do present your enquiries in an interesting way, so I don’t know but perhaps this might help. (Note that I am by no means a “climate scientist,” actual or otherwise.)

    Because Marcott et al only shows long-term fluctuations, a robust comparison between the blue shoot at the end of the Fig 3 trace and HadCRUT4 is always going to be difficult, especially with the Marcott et al error bars flying off so rapidly. And also note the comment in the post about the “flexibility” of such a “join” although this does not affect the size of the Marcott & the HadCRU rises.
    Perhaps to compare apples & apples, HadCRUT4 should be represented far less precisely, say by just 3 x 55-year averages. 1877 -0.32C, 1932 -0.19C, 1987 +0.16C. The BEST land temperature record suggests that HadCRUT4 is not showing all of this “strong rising trend” because it appeared to start earlier than 1850 in the BEST data. So, like the 5 final green dots from PAGE2K, the 1800-1940 0.25C rise in the Marcott et al blue trace is not far from what we see in the thermometer records.

    Thus far this analysis is fuzzing out the short term wobbles. But you perhaps allude to wondering how much of the pre-1940 temperature rise (presumably the 1910-40 period) is wobble and how much is “strong rising trend.”

    The climate forcings that lie behind the recent wobbles and the “strong rising trend” of HadCRUT4 can be calculated with varying accuracy. The graphs here by Sato et al presents forcings 1880 to date. Note the green plot – this is mostly but by no means all CO2 and that it is not flat back in 1880 (my point @26 with the +20ppm & +35ppm). This green plot is the big positive driver behind the “strong rising trend” but there are also very significant negative drivers.
    It is a major task of climatology to establish these forcings with more accuracy and to marry the forcings with the temperature record. While this work remains incomplete, there exists room for speculation about natural oscillations, speculation that deniers love to over-amplify into reasons for ignoring that green plot in the Sato et al graph. But my take-away from the Sato et al graph is that the green plot is a little too scary to be ignored.

  45. 45 Peter Smith says: 20 Sep 2013 at 8:04 PM

    For most of the time covered by these graphs, the thermal mechanism would appear to be more-or-less in a steady state, just quietly following various changes in the forcings. We do not appear to be in a steady state at the moment.
    If we assume the CO2 concentrations stay at the current levels, and if we ignore any positive feedback from methane and so on, is it possible to calculate what temperature we might get to, given enough time?

  46. 46 Anonymous Coward says: 21 Sep 2013 at 3:49 AM

    Peter Smith #45,
    That’s the big question; what the sensitivity metric was created for.
    Assuming all forcings (methane, smog and stuff) except CO2 at pre-industrial levels and atomspheric CO2 at the current level, “fast” feedbacks (such as snow cover but excluding the very slow melting of the large ice masses) should get the average global temperature to around 0.52 * sensitivity above the pre-industrial average (if I recall correctly).
    Now sensitivity is likely to turn out to be around 2 to 4 centigrades so (ignoring the many caveats) the answer you’re looking for would be between +.7 to +1.8 on the graph at the top of the page.

  47. 47 Jim Eager says: 21 Sep 2013 at 1:22 PM

    Re Peter Smith @ #45, it is instructive to look at what earth’s climate was like the last time its atmosphere contained 400 ppm CO2, which would be around 3 million years ago during the mid-Pliocene. Global mean temperature then was 2-3C higher than today (and much higher towards the poles), it’s thought there was a near constant El Nino state, and the West Antarctic ice sheet had collapsed, raising sea level by as much as 25 meters. That said, at about this time the Panama seaway closed, which dramatically changed ocean circulation patterns, and uplift of the Rocky Mountains was also taking place, so the mid-Pliocene is far from a perfect analogy.

  48. 48 John L says: 21 Sep 2013 at 8:39 PM

    I saw this headline in Science:

    Researchers Wary as DOE Bids to Build Sixth U.S. Climate Model

    http://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6151/1160.summary
    “Many researchers are excited about the nascent project, but others worry it could divert resources from existing collaborations.”

  49. 49 John Mashey says: 21 Sep 2013 at 9:18 PM

    Stefan: nice post, thanks.

    @29 Bouke, see DeSmogBlog entry for Lee C. Gerhard.

    All: keep an eye out for Bill Ruddiman’s Earth Transformed, which is supposed to be out in October (after some confusion about dates.) I think this sheds more light on the last ~8,000 years, relevant both to Marcott, et all and PAGES2K. Compared to past interglacials (when well-aligned, which took a lot of work), the usual slow CH4/CO2 downtrends had been slowed well before the Industrial Revolution started.

    The cover illustrates the part of the story that comes from Chinese rice paddy archaeology and methane curves compared to other interglacials.

    For anyone attending AGU in December, Bill will be giving the Tyndall Lecture.

  50. 50 pete best says: 22 Sep 2013 at 4:36 AM

    considering that humans have now emitted 550 billion tonnes of co2 to date and 1 trillion tonnes emitted brings about the 2C danger threshold (often spoken about by those concerned about such things)and we emit now around 33 billion tonnes rising at 2-3% per annum means that in just a few decades from now the trillion tonnes would have been passed.

    Is it all bad – probably not – but its not all good either and some will definitely suffer from increased flooding and droughts, food shortages and more than likely war as a consequence of such things occurring. It might already be occurring in Syria and Egypt due to food pressures caused by ACC.

    the higher the temperature gets the worse it will probably be although I am sure that places such as southern England can continue to reap the rewards of growing pinot noir and chardonnay grapes for sparking fizz.

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JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
28 Feb 2016, 21:29
#8
28 Feb 2016, 21:29#8
 Beeno, there are plenty of "serious" rugby discussions, Link to weee stormers discussion
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
28 Feb 2016, 21:30
#9
28 Feb 2016, 21:30#9
  Join NoworLogin
Climate Change Denier Wei-Hock Soon Took Over $1 Million from the Oil Industry

By Lilian Nwa, February 22nd, 2015 | 2 Comments »

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There is an ongoing debate about how humans are affecting the global climate and subsequently, what governments and policy makers should do to stem the effects of climate change. According to Wikipedia, no scientific body disagrees with the view that global surface temperatures have increased primarily due to human-induced emissions of greenhouse gases, and as such, there should be political pressure to prevent continued changes.

However, there is a small group of scientists who disagree with this view, and altogether, the issue has become one of political debate, with many Republican deniers. To prevent the undue (and unscientific) influence of outside organizations and groups, supporters and deniers of global warming have been questioned about their sources of funding and recently, one of the leading climate change deniers was revealed to have received more than $1.2 million from the fossil fuel industry over the last decade.

The denier, scientist Wei-Hock (Willie) Soon of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics has argued, “Variations in the sun’s energy rather than greenhouse gas emissions are behind global warming.” With his clearly anti-global warming stance, Dr. Soon has appeared on a number of conservative news programs and conferences, and has also testified before Congress.

Though this discovery does not necessarily mean he falsified scientific reports or that his corporate funders influenced his scientific beliefs, it does cast a significant shadow on his integrity and reliability as a researcher. According to the Times, Dr. Soon published 11 pages since 2008 concerning his theory and omitted the required disclosure in each one. In at least eight, the Times reports that “he appears to have violated ethical guidelines of the journals that published his work.”

As if this were not enough, documents obtained from Dr. Soon show correspondence between the researcher and his corporate funders in which he described his papers as “‘deliverables’ that he completed in exchange for money.” Previously, Dr. Soon has also reacted angrily when questioned about his funding sources, and though he has acknowledged some corporate ties, he has not been upfront or clear about his sources.

Historian of science Naomi Oreskes, also at Harvard University, has weighed in on this case and its broader implications for scientific debate. She told the Times, “The whole doubt-mongering strategy relies on creating the impression of scientific debate…Willie Soon is playing a role in a certain kind of political theater.”

Perhaps then those who deny climate change are less interested in science than the “political theater” of the relentless back-and-forth between themselves and those they disagree with. Like parents who refuse to vaccinate their children, the views of these people say less about their scientific knowledge and more about their inability to trust the government or any ‘outside’ source of knowledge.

(Photo courtesy of Mark van Laere)

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BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
28 Feb 2016, 21:44
#10
28 Feb 2016, 21:44#10
Love it that this post's borders are f@#$-up . Lekker like a crecker !
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
29 Feb 2016, 07:24
#11
29 Feb 2016, 07:24#11
 Man this Basque is one brain washed fella.
1 Whatever  temp changes there are, are minor....much smaller than the warming models projected ergo the models are inaccurate.
2 At least part of those changes are due to higher solar levels than 100 years ago.
3 Much of the physical evidence, receding glaciers etc is totally expected in the aftermath of the Little Ice Age receding.
4 The temp data is suspect and heavily manipulated as is the temp gathering regime.
5 There is no compelling evidence that warmer temps are worse and plenty of evidence that cooler temps are a disaster.
6 We have no viable technologies for replacing oil other than Nuclear.
7 All current agreements to limit Greenhouse gasses have almost no effect...any more aggressive attempts will precipitate a recession so devastating its effects will far outweigh any dubious benefits.

It's a consensus of special interests based on unproven science and shoddy logic. There are no wholistic studies that weigh all the elements.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
29 Feb 2016, 08:08
#12
29 Feb 2016, 08:08#12
 Thanks Dr Moz for the executive summary.  I am of course a busy man.
As for ab ass. well at least he is interested in the subject but I fear he was trying to overwhelm us under a morass of inaccurate data and assumptions.It is very clear that agendas are at work with the climate change oaks. One recalls the East Anglia University  scandal (I trust I have this right) where figures were manipulated to prove global warming!!!
Bob you cretin one should never applaud margins being fouled up. One hopes the ED will sort this out some day. Some of my excellent posts have been negatively effected by this you must remember. An immense loss to all concerned!
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