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FORUM / RUGBY /  Mozart's myth about Rugby

Mozart's myth about Rugby

Started by clevermike12 REPLIES379 VIEWS· 14 Jan 2015, 05:47
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Jan 2015, 05:47
#1
14 Jan 2015, 05:47#1

According to Mozart -


*   the changes to the laws of rugby  has had no impact on the way rugby is being played word wide; and


*    we must play our game which is  to be  the tough, take no prisoners knock out rugby.


The latter may sound wonderful - but can it hold water?   The answer is no - there is no fault with the Mozart way suggested - but it is clear that there are other factors and elements that must be added to the game if we ever want to hold our own in world rugby.


Basically world rugby has changed since 2007 from the celebrated kick-and-chase-game of that time to a more comprehensive form of rugby.   Mozart and others always say that we must not play the NZ and Australian brand of rugby - we will not beat them that way. However - looking at the many games shown on TV it is not only those two countries who play the comprehensive game.   They may have taken the lead in the comprehensive game - but the NH brand of rugby has also changed and they are nowadays also playing a more comprehensive game than they used to play.   Unfortunately SA is falling behind the rest of the world in rugby development and  the reason is we are becoming less competitive - as shown by the tests over the last two years.


What is this comprehensive game implying?  It implies  that -


*   countries must be able to play tough, take no prisoners knock out rugby; plus

*    they must also play "clever rugby" using all 15 players on the field of play.


The second element is missing in our game before even Meyer found deficiencies and start to make changes to our game plan.   So what did the SA game plan essentially contain?   The basic plan allows for the playing of 10 man rugby -  the forwards to get the ball followed by the kick-and-chase game.     The chief exponent of that format was a  heavy reliance on a player like Morne Steyn or a similar player at flyhalf.    There is one simple example to be quoted here - when Morne left South Africa to play for Stade Francais - he was found wanting and is nowadays the back up flyhalf for the Club - his game is just not acceptable in the NH environment anymore.


Realising the fact that we cannot compete by using one component and playing ten-man rugby anymore - Meyer started to make different selections with the emphasis on a more comprehensive game plan and that issue became a hot topic in the media.   The latest article on that score is by Wynand Claassem and is part of another thread on this site.   Unfortunately there was isine he changed heart - 


*   serious inconsistencies in Meyer's selection of players and the fact is that he was wavering in the process of selection;; and


*   the change environment and game pla at times was inadequate because some players just was not ready for changes in their own game - further complicated by the out-of-date style of game practised by some coaches on lower level - such as Super 15..    

 

There is one thing clear in the whole scenario - we cannot look at the pre- 2008 scenario - we must look at how we progressed since Meyer started a different approach in his game plan.    So lets see what happened since Meyer's change of heart:-


*   The first game where the change became evident was in the Ellis Park test in 2013.   It looked like we could win that test - but there was serious deficiencies in defense and Morne Steyn on his own cost us dearly by not being able to take critical decisions at given times.   


*    That was followed by the first test in June 2014 against Wales - where a more comprehensive game played by the Springboks let to a runaway victory.


Since then the Springboks struggled in games played.   The opponents decided to play their own brand of tough forward play - and our forwards - weakened by certain selections - struggled in most games and we lost critical games.   Two typical examples of games can be quoted:-


*    In the Ellis Park test last year - our forwards held their own in the first half and some seriously good tries was scored by backline players.   However, in the second half our forwards faded out and the AB's came back to score some good tries - taking the lead in the game.    It was only the slotting of a long distance penalty conversion by the much-maligned Lambie that gave us victory.


*    The end of year tour again showed the same problem - as long as our forwards remain competitive - the team was competitive - when the forwards ran out of steam  - we lso momentum and lost games - or in the game against England we did manage a win.  


So while we showed some improvement in backline play - there is a long way to go though - by the removal of Morne Steyn at flyhalf and bringing on board of Willie le Roux, there was a critical backward situation in forward play.   this could be attributed to -


*    the aging of the majority of our forwards and a dwindling capacity to be competitive as games go on; and

*     the dubious selections of players like Matfield and Mohoje.


The only way we can be competitive in the upcoming WC is to have a team that  is competitive up front and remains competitive in that department for 80 minutes -  playing   the tough, take no prisoners knock out rugby.   Added to that is the fact that we must fine-tune our backline play to ensure that we maintain a high level of competitiveness i the whole 15 man game.       


  


      

             

 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Jan 2015, 06:49
#2
14 Jan 2015, 06:49#2
Defence is as relevant today as it has always been. A very strong defensive side, which is good in the set pieces and kicks it goals is always hard to beat. Except for 2005 through 2009 our backlines have been inferior to our TN opponents. But we have always been effective counter attackers.
These things are interrelated. Open up the game and you compromise your defence. Play tough defensive rugby and you open up the possibilities of turnovers and more productive attacks from turnover  ball.

The big difference for us 2013 to 2014 is the turnovers dried up with Mohoje and Coetzee vs Alberts the counter Rucker and Louw the better fetcher. That literally dried up our counter attack and made us toothless. HM has to find a functioning fetcher....that's the biggest missing piece in the puzzle.

This is not to say we shouldn't deploy our backs and work on set moves.....but it has to be within the context of controlled rugby. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Jan 2015, 09:44
#3
14 Jan 2015, 09:44#3
 Mozart
Defense is not the issue that is at play here - good defense remains the key to successful  performances.
However,  one statement indicates that you are dreaming of a non-existent situation name,y-
"Alberts the counter Rucker"
The above is not even remotely the case.   Study of Alberts roll in breakdown ball recovery is that he rarely is in evidence and even more rarely enter mauls.   He routinely stands around behind them.  Since he never plays a roll in breakdown ball recovery - your comment mystifies me.   
The story about being good in set pieces and in defense - has been seriously exposed as rubbish in games on both test and Super 15 level in recent years.  A team cannot win without scoring tries and that is a fact of life.   Winning rugby is about scoring tries and kicking at goals. - not only about kicking goals
Another interesting myth is the following:-
"Open up the game and you compromise your defence." 
There is no inter-relationship between  playing comprehensive rugby and comprising of defense.   That statement is indeed indeed questionable and experts would laugh at it.     The problem routinely is that some players are just as weak in defense as they are in other facets of their games and those needed to be weeded out of the team.     
Whether you like it or not any team playing ten men rugby is doomed in the present rugby environment  and that is a fact most experts agree on.   



    
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
14 Jan 2015, 10:22
#4
14 Jan 2015, 10:22#4
Louw the better fetcher? I think you will find that the stats dont agree with you. Louw is at best a solid player, Coetzee is far, far better. Coetzee was one of our best players in 2014 by some distance. He and Vermeulen stood tall.
Alberts is better than Oupa, but neither are the answer at 7......not even close
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Jan 2015, 16:39
#5
14 Jan 2015, 16:39#5

Coetzee hardly ever makes a true fetcher's turnover. Strauss does, Bismarck does.....not Coetzee. Louw does....he is not Hooper, but he adds a lot on the deck. coetzee is very much a third loosie, he doesn't add strength, pace or skills on the deck. He shines in lesser matches because of his work rate....but in the RWC where everybody plays at max effort he will be very ordinary.

 

And Mike you  miss the point. Aggressive attack compromises defensive structure....they are related.

 

By far our best chance of scoring tries, apart from the boring maul nonsense I wish they would stop, is from a potent defence that provides turnover ball.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
14 Jan 2015, 16:47
#6
14 Jan 2015, 16:47#6

Wrong, Coetzee has learnt the art of the turnover and has effected a good number this year.....as many as Louw did per game when he played. Coetzee adds far more value with ball in hand and defensively.....just a far more productive player.

 

No contest, Louw is solid, Coetzee is a class act  

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Jan 2015, 16:57
#7
14 Jan 2015, 16:57#7

Coetzee is not better than Louw Dave......and he has supposedly been taught how to make a turnover....but he just doesn't. Even when he is positioned over the tackled player he doesn't seem to have the ability to lift the pill. He falls between several stools....not powerful enough or good enough in the lineouts to play a Juan Smith role.....not clever enough to play a Schalk link role....not skilled enough to play a Brussouw role on the deck. He gives us his admirable effort, nothing more.

 

 

He is not the stuff of which RWC wins are made.

KA
KalaedFreddieClub Pro495 posts
14 Jan 2015, 16:58
#8
14 Jan 2015, 16:58#8
 So Daddy, what if they are played together with Vermeulen at eight?  I see that Javelin guy from the Bulls is going to play again this year.  Lets bet how many games...<5 and he will be krocked again.
I am not going to read the whole script above but:  Clearly the law changes will impact on how the games is played strategically.  If for instance the rucking laws are substantially changed and there is no need for a "fetcher" then two big burly bruisers can be put on the flanks to carry the ball.  If lifting in the lineout is disallowed it will change the pattern of the lineout and the lighter locks like Matfield will be redundant (I hope the do that oneday).  If kicking was disallowed other than in your own 22 then it will change the dynamics of the game.
But, and here it comes...  By and large the game has not really changed since day one.  The ultimate goal is still to get more points than the other guys and in order to do so your team need to cross the magic line and it can only be achieved if you continuously cross the advantage line in order to get closer to the other end of the field.
How you get there is a matter of strategy (like building a dam is for me) and the better the strategist (coach) the better the workers (players) will work together to apply the strategies to achieve the mission through achieving individual goals.
Salaam
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Jan 2015, 17:09
#9
14 Jan 2015, 17:09#9
Well Freddie ou pal....personally I think Schalk's body now forces him into a bench role. Vermeulen is our corner stone (I hope you like the building reference).....Louw is our fetcher....our draining tile as it were. And now we are just looking for a solid foundation wall....some younger version of Juan Smith.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
14 Jan 2015, 17:09
#10
14 Jan 2015, 17:09#10

Moz, I have seen him effect turnovers all season. He is without doubt better than Louw who lets face it, is hardly an openside......never was going to make a good openside weighing in at 114kg.

 

A solid player who puts in the odd good performance. Coetzee on the otherhand, makes an impression every game. He was one of the few standout players this year.  

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Jan 2015, 17:13
#11
14 Jan 2015, 17:13#11
Seen from the left, seen from the right.....I would have Louw every time. No Springbok dies with the ball more than Coetzee with those wild charges into the first tackler....he has no nous.  
KA
KalaedFreddieClub Pro495 posts
14 Jan 2015, 17:30
#12
14 Jan 2015, 17:30#12
 I am ashamed that in the beginning of his career I really did not like Vermeulen.  He came across as undecided (dom, nê).  But the last couple of seasons he really came of age.  Imagine if the coach persisted with that javelin guy, genade.
My Daddy may not like me for this but I would go with Louw before Coetzee.  If one day we get a good loosforward coach who can teach Coetzee to offload in the tackle he will be more valuable.  I agree, I have seen quite a few times where he lies on the ball and sometimes gets pinged for the effort.  But, we need to get our other supporting players to play at the correct supporting angles.  Many times a player has no option but to go to ground because even if he wanted to there was no player to receive the offload.  Here (and some others) is one of the places where the ABs are streets ahead of us.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Jan 2015, 22:24
#13
14 Jan 2015, 22:24#13
 What I am driving art is far removed from what you are saying .  I am referring to man-on-man missed tackles.    There are way too many of those from certain players like Morne Steyn and Willem Alberts.    
You are referring to overlaps stemming from tackle ball recovery.   That means that defence is not compromised -- but defense potential is reduced.   But you sentence is comprised 100% -  look at your sentence again :-
""Open up the game and you compromise your defence." 
The emphasis is on YOUR our defense.  Is your reasonoig that you must not play a ball wide - becasue there is a chance that you may lose possession in a turnover and your counter-defense may be placed under stress?     That is stretching logic a bit far.
The answer to backline playlius more in playing clever rugby -  the emphasis should be on variation - and that variation needs to be initiated by two players - the half-backs.   That means strategic kicking may in time works well - but the defense should never be put into a position where they are comfortable in. 
Another issue is the ball skills ability of our loosies.   They must be able to carry balls and link up with the backline in attacking opportunities through overlaps.   
The above situation is why certain players should never be selected.    
          
— END OF THREAD —

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