My fear for Bok rugby this year

 I was extremely unimpressed with Meyer in his first year as Bok coach, his win record of 67% given the talent at his disposal was poor. The reason he failed was basics - his selections were poor and his game plan was out of touch with the requirements to win modern test matches.

Listening to John Smit and Tinus Delport in the Sky studio yesterday confirmed my concerns regarding Meyer and this year. They were discussing the Bok training squad selection and the omission of players like Willie le Roux, Brussouw and Labascagne. 

It is apparent that Meyer is stuck in his ways, has a plan in place and refuses to budge with regards to this plan, regardless of whether it is out of touch or not. Part of that plan is sticking with his chosen players regardless of form or aptitude for test rugby. 

Delport is of the opinion that Meyer is under pressure as he failed to live up to expectation last year and wants to make sure he gets it right this year. The buzz word is continuity, so players like le Roux and Labascagne lose out as Meyer does not want to waste time bringing these players up to speed with the Bok game plan, calls etc..........this narrow minded approach smacks of short sightedness and fuels my concerns about the man as a coach.

Its smacks of Bulls conservatism

 Don't you mean 'It smacks of Meyer conservatism'? 

Did you hear John Smit also mention that it's also quite a task introducing brand new players to the strategy that he's using. Saffex it's not all doom and gloom, Meyers picked what could be the strongest pack in the world with the right players per position. He's also got good young backs in the team!

Don't take John Smit's words 100% seriously, he did say that Keegan Daniels is one of the best loose forwards in the world even though he was getting dominated by Vermeluan and has yet been a stand out player in the Sharks pack. John Smit's tuna favouritism :P

Saffex

Here at last is an issue where I agree with you in full.   Meyer is stuck on the Bulls game plan of 6 years ago - but he does not have the players to execute that plan properly and the opposing sides in the .meantime has learned how to cope with it and devise measures to beat it.

2012 was not a dream year for the Springboks and a plan that did not work last year is not going to work this year.  Everything Meyer said in public statements on the issue of performance indicate that he regard kicking as the most  effective form of attack and that the rest of the backline is unusable.   Remember that famous quotation of his that we do not have the encessary backline players to play attacking backline play.  We do not have it - because it has beeen coached out of players by dunces coaching SA teams.

I have seen it in the NH games I watched on TV - despite the heavy fields and wet conditions often encountered - they also have phased out te Meyer plan of play years ago and play a different brand of rugby at present.   I wrote something to that effect recently - but nobody really responded on that one..

Incidentally - it is not only Johm Smit and Delport that have resevations about the so-called Meyer game plan Drotske also made some rather guarded references to it in a recnet statement.  Although he did not criticize the so-called "plan" openly - it was clear to all that reading between the lines - that he has reservations about it.   Meyer will not like very much what he says.

What I fear more than anything else is that Meyer will revert to Morne Steyn as his flyhalf.   I have a suspicion that that selection is on the cards and that Lambie's efforts to copy the Morne style is not going to work in his favour at all.   If Meyer brings back Morne Steyn - the writing is on the wall for the rest of the tests played this year - we are going to lose more than we win this year and 2012 would be remembered   fondly as a year of achievement and not written off as a disaster.

 Crap Shezza, Meyer has selected too many players that are no longer worthy or were never worthy and he has omitted far too many players that are better than the ones he selected. The excuse that its quite a task introducing new players to the squad is the biggest load of shit I have heard in years.

It smacks of a coach not confident in his own abilities. Intergrating new players should be a simple process, especially considering most of those new players would not be starters and would mostly form part of the wider squad. These players would learn so much from being part of the Bok set-up.

Instead we have past it or never beens in the squad like Kirchner, Basson, de Jongh, Morne, Vermaak, Cilliers, Franco v/d Merwe, Juandre Kruger and Kankowski.

Smit has a point with Daniel, he is a class act if used as an impact player off the bench at openside. Certainly worhy of a squad place as are Brussouw, Elstadt, Labascagne, Willie le Roux, Kitshoff, JJ Engelbrecht and Reinach, to name but some.

 I'll never agree with you with Keegan, I don't like the way he plays and I don't think he is a match changer compared to someone like Vermeluan who is (won it for us against England and supplied the perfect foundation for our opputinities in Dunedin).

Have patience he'll soon integrate all of these players into the Springboks, but my one hope is that Spies will not touch the jersey again and that Frans will be used as fullback rather than a center!

 Keegan and Vermeulen are different players. For a start Daniel should never play 8. Daniel is a perfect impact player as he can bring something different off the bench. I am not saying I would select him in the match 22, in fact I would probably not given the depth of loosies we have. But he is worthy of a training squad selection.

Nope, we cannot be expected to have patience when it comes to Meyer, he sold us short last year and his first squad of the season is doing exactly the same. We have more depth in talent than we have ever had, Meyer needs to do this talent justice. His current squad is way off the mark

Meyer = the hasbeen player coach.  Man he is stupid.  We got some talent here in the EC and then there is tis thing of no fetcher-flank.  Ritcie is going to have a field day and so will Pocock & co.

 Lots of arm chair critics.....kinda like Jake. He couldn't do anything right and then oops, he wins the RWC.

...And this is why so many of our brightest prospects leave the country to play elsewhere. Its ridiculous really and I hope the Boks lose every game this year with that squad and Meyer is sacked like the prick he is.

We need a big shake up in SA rugby!! Too much dead wood floating around there in players and management teams!

Mozart

Is Meyer above all critcism?   It is not the arm chair critics on this Board who are expresing reservations - the problem here is that Drotske and two professional players of note has reservations about his game plan too.

I myself always was and still am a supporter of jake White and I think Smit also was the same - but what Meyer has come up with thus far is nust not acceptable,   His game plan has been done away with even in the NH - but Meyer klings to it like it is unbelieveable.   And the easiet ticket to selection remains a Bulls contract.  What a joke.

The Springboks are playing three weak teams in June and if they win against those teams - it would create  a false sense of security for the Championship,   That could potentially mean - five out of six losses in the Championship series.    Chances are - we may lose 2 out of 3 games in the EOYT as well - with Meyer's idiotic selections.    

These two doomsayers are at it again pedalling the same old twaddle! They are drumming up some support from of all people the usually sane Boklogic who has obviously become unhinged due to the sharks being soundly whipped by the Mighty Stormers. Orange peeler Ntanga is unfortunately being led astray.

Once again I remind ou snapster that the 67% is there because he includes the two neutral draws. Moz explained all this to you so I suggest you can that silly stat.

Next we would have won all our tests but one if Morne had kicked at his normal level. That means we would be 4 nations Champs. Who can ever forget how we could have won by 20 points at Dunedin after missing 9 kicks at goal ( And butchering two tries nogal - a display of complete supremacy and one which made me realise  the kiwis were on the skids only for the Poms to finally drive home the lesson - can the kiwis renew themselves is the question here)

In the context of many retirements, departures and injuries it was in fact a STELLAR performance by Meyer and the Boks given the circumstances.

At least Meyer knew not to throw away Jean as ou maaaike and snaspter were advocating and ditto habana who snapster thought was over the hill two seasons ago (Bad misjudgements). Marcell Coetzee wa correctly jettisoned dispite ou maaaikei's plaintive bleatings when is was establsihed he was a one trick pony. The lad needs desparately to grow his game as he does have ability.

Meyer also beeefed up the lose trio and gave the Bok pack some clout. Meyer was castigated for picking Vermaak who promptly turned in one of the best performances from a SA scrummie we have seen this year and earned a man of the match last Saturday. Daniel was quickly jettisoned a being too small for international rugby much to the chagrin of the small fans brigade! We heard bleats about where is kan kan but today meyer is acknowledged to have been correct.

Now its brussouw again.Has been bog ordinary thus far and was replaced against the Sharks after doing zip. Louw was outstanding for the Boks but brussouw who had one good series some years ago against the Lions is their man. Bwahahhahahahaha how rediculous does it get. These are the oaks criting Meyer and making him out to be a compete fool. Pleeeeease!!!

However dispite all their wrong calls Meyer in their view knows zip. Disaster is about to strike and its all Meyers fault!!  Can I emphasie that you are prejudging matters.

One good  performance in the Super 15 and bingo the oaks are howling at the moon demanding that players inclusion in the Boks. Next week the player is off and he is forgotten as the next flavour of the month piches up. Hhahahahahahahahahaha

Meyer is of course quire right that until the standard of bacline play improves in SA we cannot play a nz style game. Nor would we ever want to as its fraught with error.  We should begin by improving our attack without going into netball style rugby. This applies to all Super 15 franchises - get them playing a more balanced game and it will be easier to do it at national level.

No Meyer left  his critics all red faced by the end of last year and under a mountain of EGG. The only question now is can he take the Boks up to another level. We shall see.

However for the moment I suggest that all palookas show this guy some respect as his record certainly warrants it.

Away with these doomsayers and ou maaaike in particular.   Where would the Stormers have been listening to ou maaaike!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How bad has de Jongh actually been. I prefer Allende but Juan hasnt been too bad.

Bok pack for the 4 nations:

Beast (next year Kitshoff?) Strauss, Malherbe

Etzebeth, Du Toit

Louw, Vermuelen and Alberts.

Something like that with a fast loosie like Deon Fourie considered for the the highveldt games as also could a player like Lappies? There we tweak the loose trio and possibly the hooker as well. Bissie for the slower more physical games Strauss for when more moblity is required. Meyer I hope you are taking notes!

Beeno

believe me - if everything is as good as you say it is - everyone would believe that we are back in the land of milk and honey -  but we are not and indications are that Meyer's calls are going to make the disaster this year worse than last year.

Insofar as backline play is concerned - there are a few issues where you are wrong as per normal and et me start enumerating it for the record:-

  *    We according to Meyer we cannot play attacking backline play - because we have not got players in SA to do so.   If that be the case why are SARU - obviously influenced by the coach appoint advisors to enhance that type of play in SA?   That remains a major point of contention in this case.   Secondly does Meyer not regard that as a priority isue to be addressed - especially since he as a dolt as backline coach?   He obviously does not - since he is not catering at all for that aspect of play in his priority selections.

  *    You are talking twaddle about Vermaak in particular.  That training squad was announced last week before  - after both Hougaard and Vemak was mediocre in all the games they played in this year.   Why Reinach - who constantly performed better than those two was originally left out is a joke in bad taste.

  *    Youa are genralizing again and invitting under-performing players like Kankowski and Kirchner to his training session - is just as bad a joke as one can imagine.  

  *    He also does not cater for your favourite player Fourie in his plans and your incklusion of them is a pipe dream - same as the inclusion of Labuschagne in your line of thinking. 

By the way you talk about consistency in performances .  If that was a norm the first selection at loosie would have been neither of Kankowski, Spies, Vermeulen or Coetzee - it would have been Labuschagne,  who is rated all-round as the best loosie in Super 15 this year in the whole competition.  Consistency was definitely not the case with Kirchner - who was bad in every game he played in.  Sorry I am wrong here - Kirchner was consistently the worst full back this year - even being worse than Taylor of the Hurricanes - who was an absolute disaster for that team.   

I for one have never advoated the removal of De Villiers from the team at all - you are talking tripe in that repect.  I did not support Francois Steyn's continuation in the team last year and still only support his inclusion in the squad at full back.  He will play at 12 though - irrespective of whether Plumtree uses him in that position or not.

De Jongh was certainly a mixed bag.   After two years of showing nothing in attacking play and a lot in defnece - he turned around and scored three tries in Super 165 and his defensive play went AWOL.   That sums him up neatly.

 Lastly please remember the key to the word IF .   If my auntee had balls - she would have been my uncle".  And balls is what you are shouting in this case.

 Beeno, firstly, congrats to the Stormers. They needed to get their campaign back on the winning track and they did just that. Having said that, Sharks did themselves no favours. I have no doubt that Deysel should have started that game. We lacked an extra physical presence like Alberts, Deysel or Bizzy! Sharks are still a better all round team and when Whitehead and the others mentioned above return, we will see that come to a head.

Regards to the Boks and last year should have lost only one game. Thing is that we didnt Beeno. We should have but we didnt! We should have had a 95% win ratio but we had a 67% which is just not good enough. However those losses came about, fact remains they are there. No one is saying the selected players are not good, they just not our best and at the highest level, we need our best.

We cant keep trying the same thing every season expecting different results. What the hell is Kirchner, Cilliers, Ralepelle, Kruger, Van Der Merwe, Flip, Kankowski, Vermaak, Jantjies, Frans Steyn, Kolisi, Mvovo and Basson still doing there??

Saffex can name at least, and I say at least, three locks younger and better than Franco and Juandre. Frans Steyn can not be an automatic selection at this time. He has to prove himself again which he has not done. Kolisi is not big enough to mix it up at international level. Much like Keegan Daniel. Mvovo has never been great for the Boks so lets move on. Kirchner is not even top 5 fullback. Cilliers is not a test level anchor! Kankowski has lost it. He plays in patches now! Vermaak adds nothing. Jantjies is not good enough for super rugby nevermind international. Basson has fuck all on Savea and the likes. These guys are wasting spaces that should be filled by guys like:

Jordaan, SP Marais, Catrakilis, Willie Le Roux, CJ Stander, Bresler, De Jager, Visser, Wimpie vd Walt, Jacques Engelbrecht, Gerhard vd Heever, JJ Engelbrecht and Cooper.

Ok, I have not always been a supporter of JJ but I have new found respect for him after the Bulls tour. He was a major player for them and didnt hold back against some more fancied opposition. Lets give this man some time. Lets not toss him out too soon. Visser looks a good prospect at 15 or even 10. We have some quality 15's in, and my pecking order at the moment, Le Roux, SP Marais, Ludik, Visser....Frans Steyn can top them all but he is a long way off at the moment.

If I needed to pick a bok team tomorrow, it might look something like this:

1. Beast

2. Strauss

3. Malherbe

4. Steph Du Toit

5. Bekker

6. Fourie

7. vd Walt

8. Vermuelen

9. Reinach

10. Lambie

11. Rhule

12. de Villiers

13. Engelbrecht

14. Pietersen

15. Willie Le Roux

16. Cooper

17. du Plessis

18. de Jager

19. Botha

20. Hougaard

21. Catrakilis

22. Ebersohn

With guys like Alberts, Bizzy, Etzebeth, Habana, Taute and co still to come back and enter the fray, our mix between youth and experience looks great. We are wasting places in the squad with dead wood!! We dont need the flips and franco's of the world anymore. We have better youngsters waiting to be unleashed! I must admit, loosies is the hardest position to select for the Boks at the moment as we have so many to choose from but Kolisi is neither a better fetcher, nor stronger than Fourie. Fourie is quicker too. vd Walt has been massive and a big reason the Kings are going so well. Vermuelen remains our best option at 8 at the moment but only just.

Bok logic a couple of pointers for you and hopefull ou maaaike will read them too and become wiser!

Firstly it does matter why you lose. The Dunedin test is a classic example. The team played well enough to win comfortably but a usually very reliable kicker missed a large number of goal kicks. That means Bok logic there was not a lot wrong with the team. Goal kicking cost us dearly.

Secondly, at the moment you have no idea who will be in the next training squad and who will make the final selection. Man we are only just reaching the half way mark of the Super 15! Also do take note of Meyers comments in this regard.

I think a few more in form players could make it if they keep going.

I do however commend you on you positive assessment of our player talent. The team you selecrt would be a very good one if we were playing at Loftus, or Ellis Park (Do not mean Labuschage rather than Van der Walt?). If playing at Twicks against the poms, I could go back to Bissie, Alberts and Louw. It is ESSENTIAL to take conditions and opposition into ccount. Abs pack is not formidable so you can go with faster palyers. You have to win the forward battle against England hence toughen up the pack. This is something I feel strongly about but dont see Bok coaches handling properly.

As to the backs. I am not as yet a great fan of Rhule. He need to have more presence and clout as a back. His defence is not too good. Only 19 or so now so one hopes this will develop. Le Roux is creative but boy does he, like Jantjes, throw out some hospital passes.

I wonder why folk think Jan Serfontein cant play 13. He has it all. Allende is also good.

Meyer will need to sift these guys.

Mike I can only agree right now re the coaching staff selected. I also dont agree with all Meyer picks re this latest squad but it is a fact we have not seen his final squad.

With Bekker going to Japan and being ruled out for the BOks we could have Etzebeth and Du Toit at lock. Meyer may initially play Du Toit off the bench.

No, I mean that guy from the Kings. Wimpie vd Walt. He is big and playing some good rugby.

I would never leave a fit Alberts and Bizzy out the team but that would be my team if they had to play tomorrow. Those guys are unfortunately unavailable.

I too am not convinced about Rhule but he deserves a go. Not sure who else is up for it at the moment though.

Beeno, the final squad will comprise of pretty much most that dead wood that is there at the moment. Reason being, the coaches are too scared to try something new. Jake wasn't. I mean, he took Jean off the wing and Fourie out of fullback and started them at centre against the Aussies. What a  master stroke! We need a coach now that is not afraid to try things for the greater good of SA rugby. Labuschagne will probably not crack the nod due to size. Coach will feel safer with a guy like Alberts there over Labuschagne although we could be missing a big trick there.

boklogic

Have the people in new Zealand got the news of the latest utterances and moves by Meyer yet - and have they started to celebrate about it already?

See the other thread on this issue that was posted just now and must be no 2 on the index.    

boklogic

Have the people in new Zealand got the news of the latest utterances and moves by Meyer yet - and have they started to celebrate about it already?

See the other thread on this issue that was posted just now and must be no 2 on the index.    

 Mike, shut up! Bloody hell you're caving my skull in with your stupidity! There's nothing more I hate than when someone whines about something to an incredible agree (In this case the backline play of the Springboks) and then has a bitch fit when there's an effort to fix the problem (Meyer stating that he's going to concentrate on backline play).

Ha ha Shezza, you dont honestly believe Heynecke Meyer knows a thing about backline play do you? Bulls have never been known for back play, at least not under him.

Him saying he is gona "concentrate" on back play is like me saying I am gona "concentrate" on changing the violent crime in SA or world hunger..Its all good and well to "want to" but I just dont know how! Same as Meyer. He does not know the first thing about back play. If he did, he would start by getting rid of Kirchner and Morne, Pienaar might not have been at 9. JDV would never have been at 13 and retained at 12.

We need an Eddie Jones back there. Not Loubscher who was a run of the mill fullback!

 Hey Hasbeeno, just read your 1st post on this thread. Great to see the ABs' win in Dunedin still haunts you!

By the way the Boks missed 6 penalties and one conversion that day which makes 7 not 9. This time next year Morne will have missed 23 kicks in that game according to your inflationary trend with stats.

Oh and what's a "neutral draw" by the way? Is that the same as a "positive win" or a "negative loss"??

You are a tool to beat all tools! 

moodaa

Surely you must have changed the "f" to a 't" above.   Tool can in local parlance also refer to a penis - and you certainly do not want to compliment Beeno like that.  After all that tool provides extreme pleasure - beeno provides only comical relief.   LOL