sharkbok
Captain23,259 posts
sharkbokCaptain23,259 posts
10 Jul 2017, 01:09#1
The New Zealand back row seemed unbalanced and was outplayed by the Lions backrow.
The AB loose forwards lacked the mongrel to get over the advantage line when attacking, or knock players back in the tackle on defence.
The physicality of Liam Messam has not been replaced. Kaino seems to be past his best as well.
Sam Cane is a poor man's Mccaw. Mccaw was much more effective at the rucks, especially on backfoot ball. Mccaw also brought more physicality on defence.
Wee Aardie is an impact player only, especially if the game is fought in the trenches. He is good if space opens up, but lacking in the tight stuff. A mere teddy bear at a picnic. His 70's disco club hairstyle only makes him taller, not bigger
Kieren Read is very good, but more suited to an open game when he can play a linking role.
They could have maybe tried Julian Savea as a blindside flank to bring some power to the pack. He seems to be slowing down on the wing anyway and spends too much time at the KFC.
10 Jul 2017, 07:33#2
SB you are carrying on as if the AB's are now suddenly shart. FFS, they drew against the best players from 3 countries in one team. Hardly an epic failure. But hey, don't take my word for it, wait a couple of weeks for the Rugby Champs to start and all will be placed nicely back into perspective with them kicking our over confident arses, along with those of the Aussies and Argies.
10 Jul 2017, 09:00#3
Oh rubbish ... the All Blacks of today is not the same team that had Carter, McCaw, Nonu and Smith in it. Not by a long shot. Dagg is also no longer the wizard he was.
Get your head out your ass, BlueBok. It may help you see a little clearer.
The team led by McCaw would not have been rattled so easily. In fact I'm pretty sure they would have cleaned the Lions up. Possibly even thrashed them with a whitewash.
Let's face it, McCaw, Carter, Nonu and Smith left a massif hole in the All Blacks side and to replace them wasn't something that was going to happen overnight. I know the Kiwis think they have a production line of McCaws and Carters to select from but in reality they don't.
These players would have exploited the Lions mistakes ... and as you know there were many mistakes to take advanatge of ... they would probably have converted most of those mistakes into points and if not points then territory to dominate from.
That was a potent side. Confident, calm, decisive ... totally in charge. Not like this hapless bunch who found themselves dominated up-front ... panic stricken ... confused ... crying about cheating refs ... blaming everyone except themselves to appease their wimpy fans.
The Kiwis were spoilt with their former side and are currently deluded ... thinking that they still have a team of that same quality. LOL!!!
So yes ... I'm saying that the Lions weren't as good as we had hoped ... and that they capitalised on this nervous, 2nd rate All Blacks side ... the worst I've seen in many a year.
Why on earth would you use the Goats as a measuring stick? Has the whitewash over France deluded you into thinking we're world beaters now?
Argentina and Australia are no different to us. The Ozzies just got beaten by the Scots and you want to use them to measure the All Blacks by? Ha ve you lost your mind?
Even this hapless bunch of Kiwis will kick all our asses. ...
Try to think before you post such nonsense again ... ok?
10 Jul 2017, 09:40#4
CC, firstly, please point our where I said the All Blacks of today were as good as those of the McCaw era? Perhaps you should review the proximity of your own head to your sphincter before making such statements? Agreed on the McCaw, Carter, Nonu & Smith replacement front. The Lions were a disappointment on this tour, especially how they struggled against provincial sides even when playing close to full strength line-ups. Or how they could not put away the AB's with 14 men for 50 minutes. But that said, there is certainly no shortage of talent in NZ. You seem to be trying to say that there is...that is just not true. They did seem a bit rudderless at times during this Lions tour, but FFS, they won the first test easily, and would probably have won the second under the normal 15 vs 15 scenario. If that had been the case, who knows how they would have done in the third and final game with no pressure, due to the series already being wrapped up.
At the end of the day, only England can even remotely challenge this "weak" All black team...and I have noticed a few cracks in the England armor the last while as well. So I would bet they'd struggle against the AB's as well.
Long story short, the AB's certainly aren't as strong as they were, but they are still the best national rugby union team in the world.
Lastly, I have no beef with you, so please just debate rugby matters with me, no need for insults.
10 Jul 2017, 09:48#5
You opened the door BlueBok. I merely stepped through.
10 Jul 2017, 10:03#6
Well I'm, closing that door, next time come through the Lapa entrance.
10 Jul 2017, 10:10#7
So what you're saying now is that perhaps the best of 3 countries didn't perform quite as well as you implied, right? That they weren't the force as you suggested, right?
That they were a "disappointment" ... "struggling" against the Kiwi provincial sides and even though they were poor in their execution ... and couldn't blow the 14 man All Blacks away ... that the All Blacks should be proud of drawing the series against this disappointment of a Lions side.
Does that sound about right?
Seems you also had a change of heart as the All Blacks were a little "rudderless" at times. I'm not sure if I understand that expression as you do, but to me it means without direction ... like headless chickens ... scampering around without much purpose ... in a state of panic.
See what I mean by your head being firmly lodged?
My suggestion to dislodge your head was made out of concern ... as a friend ... one who wouldn't turn on his good mate, CleanCut ... so I'm not sure what "beef" you're speaking of.
It was an act of kindness, BlueBok ... my friend.
10 Jul 2017, 10:25#8
Ah I see, one can't breathe with their head up their bum...that's all you had to say.
Still, I feel the need to explain..so here goes. I expected the AB's to win the series comfortably, but they did not play as well as I expected. I expected the Lions to be better than they were, they also disappointed. The AB's are a good side, and so, on paper, are the Lions...unfortunately neither of them really found their straps in this series.
BObobbok...
Captain10,129 posts
BObobbok...Captain10,129 posts
10 Jul 2017, 10:59#10
Best head uo your arse image that I've ever seen .
10 Jul 2017, 13:33#11
Hi blobbok, good debate by CC and bluebok. Some good points.
sharkbok
Captain23,259 posts
sharkbokCaptain23,259 posts
13 Jul 2017, 14:11#12
I see Woodward is also commenting about Sam Kane vs Richie Mccaw.
Barrett is perhaps the best flyhalf in world rugby- but he is still not as good as Dan Carter.
He does not bring the same stability on defence.
----The biggest Barrett should be tried at blindside flank, or Julian Savea could be tried in this position.
JWJust_win
Captain18,570 posts
JWJust_winCaptain18,570 posts
13 Jul 2017, 22:19#13
There are unconfirmed reports that Richie is now giving classes in "how to manage the ref". Is this the beginning of world domination by the ABs... again ?
Only kiwis need apply
sharkbok
Captain23,259 posts
sharkbokCaptain23,259 posts
13 Jul 2017, 23:29#14
I thought Mccaw was working on his autobiography" Living life on the wrong side", by Richie Mccaw.
The All Blacks have been less able to cheat at the rucks in his absence. His lazy runs in the offsite zone have also been missed.
He plans to open up his own cheating clinic after his autobiography.
14 Jul 2017, 08:14#15
SB, if the ref's allowed him to get away with it, then it is on them, not him.
RORooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RORooinekCaptain18,117 posts
14 Jul 2017, 08:24#16
Exactly. Calling Richie McCaw a "cheat" is both insulting and ignorant.
No one denies he pushed the envelope to see what he could or couldn't get away and he was very good at that, but that's not cheating. Cheating is taking performance-enhancing drugs or something like that and to equate Richie McCaw to a drug cheat is . . . well . . . insulting and ignorant.
14 Jul 2017, 09:47#17
"Exactly. Calling Richie McCaw a "cheat" is both insulting......"
http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/72236294/cheating-richie-mccaw-provides-fuel-for-critics-at-rugby-world-cup
But McCaw foolishly provided the ammunition for his own execution when his team finally took the field.
His cynical foot-trip as the Pumas looked to launch an instant attack from a penalty was a blatant foul, an indiscretion performed out in the open rather than the dark secrets that have frustrated opposition and foreign media and fuelled his reputation as a man who has pushed the rules to the absolute limits in rugby's most competitive position of all.
14 Jul 2017, 10:13#18
Haaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaaa!!
McCaw cheat?? NEVER!!!
He just tested the refs to see if they interpreted the offside laws as he did.
Playing the ball on the ground while comfortably seated on his butt was also just a matter of interpretation. Seems most refs agreed with his version and we were all told as youngster to you play to the whistle ... right?
Coming in from the wrong side is just another matter of seeing it from his perspective.
Gate?? What gate?? Why didn't anyone tell him that he couldn't use the oppositions gate as entry?
One is allowed to ankle tap the opposition ... with the hand, right? ... so why not the foot?? That's discrimination.
All this fuss about an offside McCaw, playing the ball on the ground comfortably seated during the act, ankle tapping (with the foot), lazy running, winning turnover ball without supporting his own weight ... and the many, many skills he honed to a fine art over the years ... is just a lot of unnecesasary accusations by those who didn't appreciate his skill set.
RORooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RORooinekCaptain18,117 posts
14 Jul 2017, 10:16#19
Oh for Pete's sake . . . do you rugby noobs seriously think that infringements like offside or playing the ball on the ground can be classified as cheating?
Really?
14 Jul 2017, 10:37#20
Of course not.
He's just breaking the law ... on a regular basis ... and getting away with it ... while others were penalised when following his fine example. It's all in the execution.
It's not his fault that he took full advantage of the blind eye shown him. So what if it benefitted his team and left the opposition feeling ... ummm ... cheated!!
So what if many a match was won because of his contributions from the wrong side?
There's another word for the way he went about it ... ummm ... I just can't seem to remember it ... it's on the tip of my tongue ... dammit!!
Common Redneck ...help me out here ... it's not cheating but ... umm ...damn ... just cant get my tongue around it
??
RORooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RORooinekCaptain18,117 posts
14 Jul 2017, 10:41#21
Oh I see . . . so this is really just another blubbering whine about the naughty refs who always favour the other team?
Okay, got it. Thanks.
14 Jul 2017, 11:02#22
Oh come now ... explain to this "noob" ... exactly what McCaw was doing on the wrong side? He seemed to be there all the time.
It looked like he was cheating to me ... and that the ref allowed him to continue unabated ...
And all this time I thought the ref was in cahoots.
RORooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RORooinekCaptain18,117 posts
14 Jul 2017, 11:53#23
Cheating? Someone is on the wrong side of the ruck and he's a cheat?
Ummmm . . . tell me, chump, are you also cheating if you throw a forward pass? How about a knock-on . . . is that also cheating?
14 Jul 2017, 13:17#24
Oh boy ... here we go again ... being deliberately obtuse is obviously something you enjoy.
Listen bozo ... finding yourself on the wrong side of the ruck on occasion (accidently) is obviously not cheating ... but perfecting the art and making it a part of your skill set is.
You are cheating when your team benefits from your deliberate, repeated infringements ... and if the ref allows this to continue he too is cheating.
Glad we cleared that up.
And I'm the noob!!?
JWJust_win
Captain18,570 posts
JWJust_winCaptain18,570 posts
14 Jul 2017, 14:20#26
McCaw was phenomenal player that I agree with. He played on the edge of the law but all players do these days, he was just better at reading the ref. Eddie Jones and others didn't have a way to counter him so they came with this "cheat" label to get in his head and try and get the ref to go against him. In his later years he got whistled more than earlier and even got a yellow card. We will see how history treats him but to me he was one of the best.
RORooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RORooinekCaptain18,117 posts
14 Jul 2017, 14:45#27
McCaw is a candidate for greatest player of all time and he doesn't deserve to be remembered as a cheat. Leave the word "cheat" for the steroid abusers.
I see the noobs are sputtering and getting a bit red-faced on this subject but none of them can actually articulate what they mean by "cheat". I'm still not quite sure how one "cheats" on the rugby field. If "cheating" simply means infringing then I'd love my team to play against a team of cheats because they'd win easily as the "cheats" are penalised non-stop.
Based on some of the tearful comments above, I suspect that a player is only a "cheat" if he's playing for a team that is opposing the team that you support and if the naughty ref doesn't penalise him every time he rips the ball off you or gets to the breakdown first . . . as if that's somehow it's his fault that the ref got something wrong!
I can't be sure though, but apparently if enough journalists whine and squeal about your alleged unpunished infringements then there's absolutely no question you're a cheat as well.
Me, I'll remember Richie McCaw as a great player and captain for both the Crusaders and the All Blacks.
JWJust_win
Captain18,570 posts
JWJust_winCaptain18,570 posts
14 Jul 2017, 15:26#29
If he wasn't penalized then he wasn't cheating according to Rooi's thinking. Sounds logical to me. There is no way all refs decided to not penalize McCaw, that level of collusion is nonsense.
RORooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RORooinekCaptain18,117 posts
14 Jul 2017, 15:32#31
I knew it . . . this is just another excuse to have a snivel and a whine about the naughty refs who are always so mean to our players and s o nice to theirs. It's not fair . . . sniff . . . blubber . . . boohoohoo . . .
LMAO!
What a bunch of soft little crybabies we have here!
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Jul 2017, 15:48#32
Actually there are guys who play to the law without artifice. There are others who, very conscious of the law push it to the limits, judging the ref on the day very finely and the trend of his calls within the game. McCaw was the king of the law manipulators. Illegal....no, not on the face of it. But does it introduce an unfortunate 'lawyerly' element in rugby, making manipulation of the rules part of the game? For sure.
PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
14 Jul 2017, 15:56#34
I believe he was a good player but unsportsmanlike in some ways.
People say he played at the edge of the law but the fact is that he did more than that. Regardless of whether he got penalised/caught or not, he did what he did at times and not being caught doesn't mean his actions were always honorable.
Yes he was a great player and so the spotlight was often on him when scores of fans would scrutinise his actions. Nobody is saying that other players are not guilty of the same or that no Boks do similar things.
For me, I'm happy to admit that a great many SA players have been outright cheats. Somehow though, I can't understand how the Kiwis are always so unwilling to admit when their own are guilty. In instances like the SBW one a few weeks back, Kiwis will say that yes that was stupid and he deserved the red. But you'll only ever get the obvious out of them and no more.
The fact is that McCaw has been accused of cheating by a great many fans from various countries. And the argument is that it is because he was so good and people were so jealous. By that reasoning we should expect all the greats to be called cheats. But that's not the case though is it?
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Jul 2017, 16:09#35
Good post Plum. But I can't think of any South African player who used the laws as a tactic.
PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
14 Jul 2017, 16:20#37
http://www.rugbydump.com/2014/09/3887/discussion-on-francois-louw-injury-from-richie-mccaw-cleanout
The clean out is at 06:30 in the video posted in the article.
Here is a high clean out buy McCaw that resulted in Louw having neck surgery as I recall. A closed shoulder to the head/face.
If you admit that SBW was guilty and foolish then you can help but argue that this high shot was completely intentional. He knew exactly what he was doing. The SBW incident was more a reaction than anything else. The McCaw incident was not.
Also, this is no different to the Vunipola incident in that it was a shoulder to the face at the ruck. Only Vunipola was using a bit more arm.
Now, all I am saying is that had we brought it up at the time, we'd be given all manner of excuses and be accused of being crybabies etc. Yet...three years later and we couldn't hear enough about Vunipola? All the while remembering that the Bok player required surgery after that while Barrett wasn't even scratched yet play acted like he had just been shot with a 12 Gauge.
Again. The Boks are not guilt free. We've also had our dirty players . But why are we so easily able to admit it?
sharkbok
Captain23,259 posts
sharkbokCaptain23,259 posts
14 Jul 2017, 18:24#39
This thread seems to have taken a u-turn. Many other threads exist that are dedicated to Mccaw's antics.
The main focus originally was Sam Cane, not being a Richie Mccaw.
JWJust_win
Captain18,570 posts
JWJust_winCaptain18,570 posts
14 Jul 2017, 18:34#40
Sam is attending Richie's class on "how to manage the ref" so we will soon see major improvements.
