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On the Brink: Can the Boks win WC?; Rugby 365

Started by Just_win9 REPLIES236 VIEWS· 28 Nov 2014, 08:52
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JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
28 Nov 2014, 08:52
#1
28 Nov 2014, 08:52#1

It's countdown time - albeit 10 months away from the start of World Cup 2015. At this point Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer has to select a matchday squad (given the players available to him) against Wales, that he believes will win the global showpiece.

He must continue with the nucleus of the team for the next five games, building up to World Cup 20-15.

The sides that generally win major competitions (Currie Cup, Super Rugby, World Cup etc.) find their rhythm at some point in the competition and then ride the momentum of winning.

Invariably this happens with a few good wins, coupled with a consistency in selection - which results in the players being selected intricately knowing one another's style of play as individuals and as units.

When these aspects fall into place, players gain faith in one another and start to feed of one another's confidence.

It's a type of synergy that comes with consistency in selection and winning, which ultimately equates to success.

With just five games to go, Meyer has to consistently select the same players/units, as this will give them further game-time to get to know one another's style of play.

You want your players and units to have an intimate knowledge of how they play in pressurized game situations - i.e. Francois Louw knows how Duane Vermeulen takes it up and how he can then protect the ball, as he's been playing with him for some time.

The games in our group will give us another four games to get the synergy going.

So between now and the Final (hopefully we make it) we have 11 games.

That's not a whole lot of rugby!

I think the selection of Patrick Lambie at No.10 tells a big story. There isn't much between Handré Pollard and Lambie, yet Meyer has gone with Lambie, which one can't fault.

If Meyer felt Pollard was the man to win the World Cup he really should have started with him and Cobus Reinach against Wales, as this would have given them another opportunity to get to know one another in the heat of battle, as opposed to on the training filed.

There is a big difference. I think this is a very telling selection by Meyer.

Who's the better kicker? That I really don't know.

The front row know each other particularly well, as this unit has played with one another for years. Strauss, also, has played alongside Tendai Mtawarira and Jannie du Plessis in many games.

The issue here, I think, is at tighthead. If du Plessis goes down, you need a replacement. I would go with Marcel Van der Merwe, who has the pedigree and put in a mammoth scrumming effort in a crucial late scrum against the All Blacks at Ellis Park.

However, the issue would be how much scrum time has he had with Bismarck du Plessis and Mtawarira?

I'm not sure we have the best individual scrummagers in world rugby in the front row (close though), but as a unit I'd say we are very close to the best, if not the best.

Victor Matfield and Eben Etzebeth now have a few games together, so the dynamic is looking good. It was also good to see Matfield get real abrasive after Parisse (who had a great game - again) annoyed him in the line-outs. I haven't seen this abrasiveness from him since his return (and I wasn't sure it was still there), so I must say it was one of the highlights of the game for me watching him hit those rucks soon after he got annoyed.

So the tight five will have the knowledge of another come the start of the World Cup and as we all know this is where it all begins. So we are really well placed.

I'd say the first-choice loose trio - Louw, Alberts and Vermeulen - know each other's play well and it is good to have Marcel Coetzee getting plenty of game time with Vermeulen and Burger. Louw, Burger and Vermeulen go back a long, long way - with the great Western Province/Stormers - so again they know each other.

For this game against Wales I would have given a Carr a run at No.6 and moved Coetzee to No.7. Carr deserves a start, where Meyer will have learnt a lot more than playing him off the bench again. Plus, Coetzee is more than capable to play at No.7.

At halfback we have a bit of a challenge.

If he goes with Reinach and Lambie that's fine. However, Reinach and Vermeulen need to get more game time together. The link between No.8 and No.9 is a high pressure area/combination and these two have to get game time together.

If Du Preez is fit he will not have played too much with Lambie and Vermeulen, so this would be a concern to me. They will only have about four games together to find the synergy, which really isn't much at all in such an important area of the team. It really is a potential issue.

The midfield at the moment is very strong defensively, but there haven't been that many line-breaks and thus one can understand those making a case for Juan de Jongh.

Jean de Villiers, at 33, is obviously still on top of his game and as a leader he has been exceptional. It's a pleasure listening to an articulate De Villiers when interviewed.

Then we also have the option of Frans Steyn. The centres mentioned have had game time together, Serfontein to a lesser degree with Steyn. Damien de Allende is also in the mix but hasn't quite grabbed his opportunity just yet.

The back three incumbents (Willie le Roux, Bryan Habana and Cornal Hendricks/JP Pietersen) have had a lot of game time together, so there is no issue in that context.

However, I'd also like to see a Frans Steyn, Le Roux and Habana/Pietersen combination - for reasons I have mentioned before.

There's also the Frans Steyn, Habana and Pietersen - which, in my opinion, worked well in the 2011 World Cup win over Wales.

I feel we are in very good position with our back three.

Wales might not be at their best at the moment but with a shrewd coach and some word class players scattered through the team - Jamie Roberts, Leigh Halfpenny, captain Sam Warburton and Gethin Jenkins, to name but a few, they will provide a very big test. It's a pity George North isn't playing.

Wales present the Boks with a great opportunity to end the year on a good note and get the rhythm/momentum back, which was evident against Italy.

It will give that dream of ours, of winning the World Cup for the third time, a bit of a surge!

In the World Cup squad there must always be a spot or two for the form players, or those breaking into the provincial scene and whom the coach believes might just have that something special at international level.

It also keeps the incumbents on their toes.

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
28 Nov 2014, 08:56
#2
28 Nov 2014, 08:56#2
So many questions & so little time. 
Frankly, even with all the plotting & planning any of 3 or 4 teams can win the RWC it is such a crap shoot.
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
28 Nov 2014, 09:03
#3
28 Nov 2014, 09:03#3

I don't think we can win the RWC, there are too many questions in regards to what we should have and what we don't have. 


We have been very inconsistent this year, some really sub par performances.


If I look at our matchday 23 there are too many uncertainties.


Who is currently really ou best front row, I know Beast and Jannie has been the number one choices, but are they are best players?


Our locking combinations have been hit with injuries, who is the best combination and bench there?


Our backrow has been weakened with the selection of Oupa and it has been a compromise ever since


We know who should be our halfback pairing but who will Meyer ultimately use?


Our midfield combination doesn't work, but Meyer seems oblivious to that.


Our back three looks unsettled, we have many weaknesses there, younger players weak on defence, older players starting to lose pace and form.


I was hoping that by now we would have a clear indication who our best 23 are, but it seems Meyer has his ideas and even the supporters can't agree on much.


Lastly I don't see us beating England, New Zealand and OZ in successive weeks.



CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
28 Nov 2014, 11:03
#4
28 Nov 2014, 11:03#4
 
Meyer doesn't know who his best 23 are.

Take flyhalf as an example.

It was Morne, Morne, Morne ... now Morne is a thing of the past.

Instead of slotting Lambie in right from the start, he chose to play him as 15 cover off the bench ... with an occasional start at 10. Then he kicked him out altogether ... tried Jantjies, Goosen, Morne and Pollard.

Now he's returned to Lambie ... a few months before the world cup kicks off. 

Lambie could have had an additional 20 - 30 caps as our starting 10 right now. He would be settled, have self confidence and those playing around him would have developed an understanding with him.

Lambie is this months flavour. How about next month or the month thereafter?

What if he has a shocker on Saturday? Would that be him done? Would that bring Morne back into the picture?

I'm afraid Meyer doesn't know his arse from his elbow. That's how it's been right from the start.



BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
28 Nov 2014, 11:15
#5
28 Nov 2014, 11:15#5

When South Africa were eliminated from the 2011 RWC I was hoping for a mass retirement of all the 2007 RWC players.


I hoped they would all bugger off overseas and that the next coach would come in, clean ship and start from fresh.


To some extent that happened in the forward in 2012, Meyer tries 17 new players in the pack, but if you look at the progression of selection up to now and you see the return of Bakkies, VIcki, Juan, Schalk, and most likely Spies next year, it seems he only ade those changes because these players were injured.


SO his plan was all along to take a bunch of geriatrics to the next world cup.


In 2012 he didn't change mch in the backline and notably only started looking at an alternative for Kirchner when public demand suggested le Roux cannot be ignored, but even then it took time for him to accept change was inevitable and Le Roux was the man.


HIs reluctance to drop de Villiers has put us in a spot of bother in the midfield playing JJ and then dropping him, now some (wink wink) think JJ is kak, I beg to differ. He was dropped because Meyer got hold of lethargic Jac que who promised he will be back and Meyer believed him.


At this point there are so few players really worth their position that I am really disappointed in how this year went, not only has selections digressed, but our execution in te breakdown has gone for a ball of kak, our attacking play bar willie and a few bright moments from Lambie and Pollard has been one dimensional and useless.


I am not very happy with where we are going.


What the F...ck do the coaches see in favouring players who have proven they can no longer win the RWC with their antiquated skills and game plans?



BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
28 Nov 2014, 11:25
#6
28 Nov 2014, 11:25#6
 Well tomorrow might show that the 'homeboys' can perform & win away from home, without the assistance of the foreign brigade ..... or am I in dreamland ?
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
28 Nov 2014, 11:28
#7
28 Nov 2014, 11:28#7
If you can look past the fact that it is the last match of the season, our back three will be exposed in defence, our players are tired and our form has been poor, then yes, why not?  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Nov 2014, 13:57
#8
28 Nov 2014, 13:57#8
 I can be brief and give  you the short answer aboout the Springboks winning the World Cup - but whill esplain w hy I said so.
THE SHORT ANSWR IS - NO - THE SPRINGBOKS WILL NOT AND CANNOT WIN THE WC  
So why are we in that situation?   I think we must look back and see why their are serious probems in the team.
Meyer was appointed as S pringbok coach in January 2012 and one would have thought he should have had ample time to get a good squad of players together and fine-tune the squad.    He has not achieved that and he has constantly self-destroyed what he was aiming at.
When Meyer became coach - he did not select his inital squad strictly based on performance merit.   He  had nearly six months to do so and did not gt the right players to lay a foundation - based on merit selection.   He first tried to get Matfield to come out of retirement and bcome Springbok captain and then turned to Fourie du Preez, who also turned him down.   When he made the latter approach Du Preez was out of rugby for three months ad totally unfit - yet Meyer wanted him by hook or by crook.
When his first quest did not bear fruit he turned to Jan de Villiers and the latter has been captain ever since.   There can be no doubt that Meyer made the right decision in that case.   
After five months of Super 15 rugby in 2012 - Meyer had to announce his first squad - the majority of which weere Blue Bulls - he was aquinted with.   It was soon evident that the squad did not meet requirements and a revolving door developed through which the whole Bulls team passed - with one exception.     
As the tes season progressed it became clear that many of his selctions were seriously flawed.   The worst case by some distance was Morne Steyn, but there also were Pierre Spies, Frnacois Steyn  and Fracois Hougaard - who was seriously ineffective.   Things did not go well in th June test - the team drew in teh third English test and it was clear that there are serious problems in the team.   
Then followed the RC - where the results were also flawed seriously - losses away to the AB's and the Wallabies and a draw against Argentina was not the best way to go forward.   MorneSteyn was a disaster and dropped from selection - although kept in the squad.   
There wwre a few players ientified as being good enough - I would say those include Habana, JP Pietersen, Jean de Villiers, Eben Etzebeth, Bismark du Plessis and Adrian Strauss.  In the main there was no foundation laid for team development - rather a haphazard collection of players playing  according to an extremely questionable game plan.
Meyer panicked and called in Gurthro Steenkamp as a prop - already an old player - instead of looking at younger and stronger local talent with a view to longer-term development.   F or the most part there was no ral team building and player development aking place and the whole sscenario was a mess.
Then came along the June sof tests against Italy, Wales and Samoa.  That looked like a new opportunity to start looking at younger talented players to take through to the WC.   But what happened then - back came the 2012 flop Morne Steyn and he did include players who was below par as well - Kruger being an example.   One of his favpoourite players - the useless Kirchner - was injured and Meyer was forced to select Le Roux.  The latter was so good - he dared not to even consider bringing back Kirchner.   The RC was better - but we still lost both matches to the AB's.  No reason for panick - but Meyer panicked and started gettng players like Bakkies Botha into the squad and h kept Steenkamp also in his squad.   Despite failure by Botha he called him up again for all subsequent squads.   Morne was back - and as expected flopped in both AB tests.  Du Preez was also called up and played in all full ests  invisible games.
In the emantime certain positions became revolving doors and ther were no consistency in selection.   What was worse  - he called up  Fourie to the EOYT and it was clear that he was just not good enough anymore.   This year he got worse and pursuaded Matfield to come bak.   By all accounts the presence of Matfield weakedned the Tight 5 and towards the end of this year Matfied's line out performances became slippery and below par.
S o where are we now?   The situation is as follows:-
15  - no problem - we have Le Roux and if back-up is needed Goosen.
Wings  :  In absolute chaos - Habana this  year failed to eprform and Pietersen lost pace at an alarming rate.   There is no clearcut back ups developed and we are indeed in trouble.    The situation is untenable.
Centers -  De Villiers lost form badly this year - but  Sefonetin is an adequate back-up.  However the 13 position is  i shambles and hee is not a reliable starter - neither a back-up player.
Flyahlfs -  Having got rid of Morne S teyn - the situation looks better than it has for years.  However he keeps Morene in the squad and the danger is always present that Meyer would run back to Steyn - which would be an exercixe in futility.
Scrummies  -  In adsolue shambles - when Hougaard failed in 2012 - meyer ran back to Ruan Pienaar and and later on Fourie du preez - both well into their 30's.   Both were avera ge at best and both showed near to zero in the tests they played in.   Both are injury-prone, possibly because of lack of match-fitness.   So no solution at scrummie
No 8  -  No problem - we have vermeulen and Whiteley as well   Arno Botha could back tht position up as well.
Loosies 
Opnider situation moe than satofctory - but Kriel should have had some game time this season.
The problem i the blindside flank - where F at Alberts got lazier and lazier as time went on and was already useless in the Ellis Park test.   The cover is fflimsy - Burger is there - but how ill Burger perform after a season in the soft Japan enviornment?   in real back-ups developed.   So the position is sub-par.
Locks bringin in matfield and Bakkies Botha landed us in a bad situation.   Bakkies Botha realized he was inadequate and opted out of international rugby - too late in teh day to find experienced youmger lcoks.   matfie is getting worse and worse in evey game he played and the reuslt is we lack players with experience in the lock station to abck up Etzbeth.   
Props - Jannie went into reverse gear performance-wise this year - but altenaties had vrtually no game time to enhancce experience.   This is bad news.
SUMMARY
Meyer has filed to buil up afull squad with adequat abck-up nd we now have a situation where -
*   on the wing we are in a chatoic state;*  Thenumber 13 position i abysmal.*   there is no scrummie deveklopment and the rpesent two scrummies effectively had very little gae time - too much lingering with reputatin players -who did ntot reallya chieved anything.;*   The lock situation is in shambles - espeically fi Meyer persist with the gruntless Matfield.
Even though some of the older players has gone into a tailspin performance-wise no real back-up development took place and we are in serious trouble as a result.
There may be still some hope - but then Meyer must forget about his pals and select a squad base on performance - with less emphasis on reputation and pally-pally selections.      


   
  
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
28 Nov 2014, 20:25
#9
28 Nov 2014, 20:25#9
Ofcourse the Boks can win but there again so can perhaps 5-6 others...never before has this competition been more open.

One has to study the pooling...last WC I predicted France and SA in the final...true as bob I did. I wrote my reasons for it...I posted this in 2 forums if I remember...It was a puzzle...

I was laughed at...not because of SA but because of France...if you remember France and NZ were in the same pool...I stipulated that this was an oddity ...like France and Ireland in pool D in 2015. Another oddity here is that 3 great nations are in the same pool...one of them will never see the quarters...this is abnormal and could have abnormal results...thing about it!

Not everybody here likes WC's I do it's my favourite competition because it has so many variables and no certainties...it's a racing handicap...that's why I enjoy the Durban July.

Favourites very seldom win...rugby players are however more stable than horses. But factors like, spirit, national pride, complacency, overconfidence,fear, lack of confidence and ofcourse ability...the last one is what most people rank the most important.

A final with SA versus France in NZ...would have humiliated NZ rugby and had to be stopped...I'm not a conspiracy theorist, at least I try not to be... Bryce Lawrence...will always remain suspicious to me...don't really want to ref bash and look for excuses but his display was beyond the borders of reasonable doubt...no doubt one of the most shocking displays...if SA rolled Australia...they would have challenged NZ...I believe they could have beaten them without Dan Carter...if that would have happened France and SA would have been in the final.

I'm not trying to Mr Clever Di ck...or a sensational predictor or prophet...all I really trying to say ...look at the games...look for the probable upsets, which happen in WC's , temper it with the law of averages and possibilities...believe me this world cup will not be easy...NZ, SA, Austr, Eng, France, Ireland and even Wales can win it...Argentina not likely but a roughy...not impossible...Italy never but could cause an upset somewhere...an outsider might get into the quarters but no further but might affect the layout and the games that are played...the minnows are their only for pride and further improvement.

My prediction is France and Ireland...in final SA in 3rd knockout. but ironically NZ are overall still the best... the WC is a raffle


BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
28 Nov 2014, 21:43
#10
28 Nov 2014, 21:43#10
 Wee abs are a RAWs based side. I doubt they are going to be handed the RWC again!!!! Seb its not a theory re a conspiracy its a fact. Bryce Lawrences fathers sent that letter to Oz refs. 
Unfortunately Meyer has wasted time and not established who his squad will be.Beast, Jannie, Bissie and Strauss have been his front row with nobody else getting a look in really besides Coenie. To be fair Malherbe barring injury may have had a few games under his belt

At lock the recall of matfiled and bakkies was a disasterous move. Juandre was never going to be a test lock. More wasted time.
Jean has to play every game it seems. Jan and Allende were not paired even against italy. 
Huge blunder was the ommission of Willemse the bulle lock made for NH conditions etc.
How would Kriel, Whitely of Carr go if started.  The uncertainty exists because Vermuelen, Louw and Alberts were played non stop.
Who knows but injury and retirements may save the day. What is ceratin is that Meyer has made some bad moves. 



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