Onc bitten -twice shy?????????

In 2013 Coetzee convinced the then Stormers franchise to pay a fortune to lure Jantjies to the Stormers after the Lions was replaced by the Kings.   Jantjes had a massive reputation based on the hype of the media and Coetzee fell for it.

However, Jantjies was useless playing for the Stormers in 2013 and let Coetzee down badly.   They could not get rid of him quickly enough and that summarized Coetzee' s experience with Jantjies.

Now come 2016 and the hype about Jantjies is even more than it was in 2012 – but there were signs not admitted by anyone that Jantjies does not take pressure very well.   Fact is that the best game the Lions played this year – ie the game against the Bulls – Jantjies was not the pivot.

So the question is will Coetzee remember what happened in 2013 and  put Jantjies on the bench for the first test against the Irish.   I would not be surprised if that in fact happens.   Bad memories about his previous experience could influence Coetzee’s decision in the relevant regard
  

Valid point, ou Maaik. If anyone should be skeptical of the hype around Elton Jantjies then it's Allister Coetzee.
I suspect Lambie will start the first test and Elton will get his chance in the second.

Certainly hope that AC is intelligent and objective enough not to leave past experience influence biase his decisions in the now...lets rather give him another chance...ironically both Silky Hands and Patrick were abused and mishandled by coaches in their promising youth but the chances are there to let them them prove their unquestionable talent.

 Mate his dad died, rugby was the last thing on his mind.

Oh boy rugby ignorance at play again.....or is it pathetic petty prejudice......take your pick.  

 Dave I think Mike makes an interesting point, which I made myself in the match string....the Lions  were more direct and decisive with Faf directing affairs. What does that mean? Perhaps nothing.
Chabal as for Lambie....I know of no player who has delivered so little...one stupendous kick against the ABs and been given so many chances. Abused by the coaches, you have to be kidding.

To ignore Jantjies's contribution this series on the strength of one game smacks of the usual ignorance from Mike. At least you have the smart to pick up on the fact that the responsibility was transferred to Faf this game given the absence of Jantjies.....dumb Mike was too stupid to miss that point....he has Boshoff making the difference.
When Jantjies plays, he directs matters with Faf providing the service. It was good to see Faf given that responsibility, for with it he shone.
The Boks would benefit from Faf and Jantjies being given the freedom to express themselves 

Well it seems that's where we are heading....pity Rohan Janse Van Rensburg never made the A team. He was a consensus TOW choice for Planet Rugby and Rugby 365.

I dont get the omission of Janse v Rensburg in the A side at all. I know politics is at play given the selection of Am, the Kings centre......but come on.
Same applies to Kirsten at flank, Ulengo on the wing and Jason Jenkins at lock.
I like JD Schickeling but Jenkins is better. Coetzee has not selected an enforcer in the A side......Snyman, JD and Mostert are all 5's

 There were two games lost by the Lions where Jantjies was not showing anything good.  Under pressure he does not look good - it is not ignorance it is factual.     In a winning team when not under pressure he plays well.   In tests the question remains will he fold under pressure.   I am not sure and would like to see how he plays under pressure in tests - my hesi tation is that he has folded in the past and it may happen again in future.     

Oh what utter fucking rubbish......I recall the two games the Lions lost and that had stuff all to do with Jantjies who was as solid as they come. To blame Jantjies is ignorance of the highest order.
The Lions lost the physical battles in the games they lost, that had stuff all to do with Jantjies.
Jantjies has been fantastic all season, pressure or no pressure and that is a fact.

Mike. I take it that one of the two losses you are talking about is the big loss at home? Dude, he had zero service and zero space. I don't think any 10 in the world would have done any better in the same circumstances. The scrums were a mess, the breakdown was non-existent and the defensive line was continually offside. I am still struggling to understand where Jantjies gets this tag of having zero BMT from. The Lions loss to WP in the CC final two years back was due to Boshoff who started and kicked dismally. Can anyone give me some examples of big games where Jantjies failed. As far as I can tell his positive performances in big games far outweighs his bad ones. Maybe I missed some crucial games or understanding of games other the last 24 months?

 I just posted this as a discussion topic.  Throwing the ball away like Jantjies did in the Hurricanes game leading to a intercept try  was inexcusable.   He was also bad in the Highlanders game - where the forwards were doing very well.   I must admit the bad choice of the Hurricanes and Crusaders game was Mnisi - whose defense bordered  on the non-existent - but Jan tjies was poor as well. 

Mike show me a player and I'll show you a clip of him throwing an intercepted pass. We have to lean the good against the bad, in my view anyway and currently with Jantjies there ain't much bad to put on the scale.

If Jantjies is declared fit to play then he will start regardless of Coetzee's previous experience with dealing with Jantjies. He is an extra POC in the starting line-up and Lambie will be a good utility back bench option.
This does not mean I see Jantjies as a purely POC inclusion like Mvovo, Mbonambi and Paige. He was the in form SA 10 for most of the Super 18, with Lambie out for most of it with an injury. If it comes to a coin toss between Lambie and Jantjies (if Coetzee see them as equal based on performance and fit to the gameplan) - Jantjies will get the nod because he is the right colour.
Jantjies will only be put on the bench if they are not certain about his fitness to play a full game and they don't want to risk him getting injured again.

 Mike just shows how utterly ignorant you are. The pass Jantjies threw over the top was the perfect option in the circumstances. Jane looked off side when he got his hands on it. Had the execution been perfect and the clever pass received the Lions would have scored.
Only a narrow minded fool would be stupid enough to conclude that it was the wrong option. By your standards every pass made apparently finds it's target and no intercepts should occur.  
Wake up for crying out loud....its fucking rugby 

 Perfect for n intercept option - that kind of pass is BS when the opposition players is in between the passer and the recipient.  

Wake up you ignorant idiot...a loop pass is meant to go over that player in the way. It's execution was not perfect hence the intercept....not all passes are perfect...Wake the fuck up.
My point is that it was the right option as the commentators clearly pointed out....the execution was not spot on....that's rugby for you.
But you are too stupid to grasp this very fact instead we have an ignorant view that it was the wrong pass to throw. 

 I actually wish Coetzee would start with Jantjies - to see if he got over the pressure deficiency.   If he does , good for him - but I have a nagging suspicion that it won't happen and he will show his real deficiencies.  Dave is an idiot to say the pass was appropriate the execution problematic.  Whenever that kind of pass is made it should be that the opposition is not in the position to intercept it - otherwise it should not be made.  In any event it was an aimless pass as the outside players were covered by defendants. 

Why are we focusing on one bad pass but not mentioning the plethora of line breaking runs, passes and exceptional attacking kicks made?

I struggle to think of a better attaking 10 now or in recent SA history actually. 

 You guys can say all you want about Jantjies ... bottom line is that he suffered in the past with nerves and still today shows signs of it lurking beneath his so called calm exterior.
I have seen him shoot at the posts some 20m out and shank the ball so badly that it didn't even reach the posts.

That is the clear lack of BMT. Not something you can coach ... sadly.
We are going to hopefully see him in action shortly and when we do, we'll know exactly what his made of.
Personally ... I don't think his balls are heavy enough to handle the big arena ... especially not when under pressure against the best teams in the world.
Test rugby is a whole new ball game.
Good luck to him. Would love him to be a wizard.
  




 

plum - among the good passes there are also poor passes to players in a worse position than he is.  I watch rugby carefully and take note of both positives and negatives of players and I think that Jantjies is an interesting player - but I have my doubts about him in pressure situations.  However, we will see how he handles such situations on test level - if he succeeds I will have my doubts removed, until then my doubts remain until proven wrong.    

"I watch rugby carefully and take note of both positives and negatives of players . . ."

Ou Maaik, I must have missed the time you identified any positives for Willem Alberts or Juan de Jongh. Could you please list the positives for those two players again?

 Nee man Rooinek. Look how you have confused ou Maaik again:

 There never were any positives on test level by either of Alberts of De Jongh.   The last test De Jongh played he went AWOL and I all tests played by the slowest loosie in test matches Alberts was missing at least 20% of the low number of tackles he tried and his ball carries was so few (because of pace deficiency)  and ineffective that it is unbelievable,   The hype was massive - the performance about on par with those of CC players - on any higher levels they were liabilities. 

Mike you really are exposing how utterly stupid you are. So in your little world a player should not make an over the top loop pass if the opposition are in the way......bwhaaahaaaaa.
Here is a little rugby lesson. The very reason you make that kind of pass is to by pass the opposition players that are in the way. If executed properly the Lions would have scored. Jantjies made a good call as he has done all season. It's that gift that has him creating space for others.
Is he a perfect human being? Does he never make mistakes or fail to execute properly....you tell me dumbass.
Fuck me nothing is more infuriating listening to an ignorant prick like yourself finding negatives in a player that has been a revelation for the Lions this year. The same player every supporter and writer is waxing lyrical about.
You are fucking stupid 

  Dave we disagree on that pass - but to make a pass in that position with the taller plaers being from the opposition is really a potential intercept certainty.   I have nothing against loop passes and overhead passes - but that was not the place to make the one made by Jantjies.   From then onwards the Lions was completely on the back foot - something they could never recover from.   However, that was not the issue here - I have my doubts as to whether Jantjies will make a success on test level or bottle out as he did in the past when under pressure.  However, if he does not then I am fully prepared to accept I am wrong - but thus far I am not convinced at all.    

 Alberts was a monster. He dominated everyone.
He was the heart and soul of Bok rugby at one stage. An absolute essential player.
Seems your not watching the matches as carefully as you initially thought. 

You've missed a lot. Perhaps your still missing out on all the action.

Look here you idiot...Corey Jane caught the ball is he tall huh...stop speaking out your ignorant arse. If it was the wrong pass why did the commentators say it was the correct pass that if it had gone to hand would have resulted in a Lions try huh?
Whiteley threw a pass that was intercepted are we saying he cracked under pressure and lost the Lions the game huh?

When has Jantjies bottled it under pressure....what a pack of lies 

 Well if Jantjies does fail we have a lad with BMT to fall back on down the line in Pollard. I don't dislike Lambie but he is missing something for me. I could be wrong but i thought Pollard was one of the few who had a decent WC for us, despite it being in a losing cause. He kicked well against the ABs in the semi and he's not ever really been disappointing. Guess it's hard to discuss anyone who started playing under Meyer. Everything reminds me of that guy and i hate it!!! At least i have a nice happy place to go to...Rooooaaaar! hah

Saffex i also cannot think of when Jantjies had such a bad big game that it stood out for me. I never even used to rate the guy so i don't think i am being biased. Maybe i am, i dunno. Problem is that the game Mike mentions is a poor example for so many reasons.

Oh yeah CC - How well did you sleep on Saturday night? Haha makes me happy to know Pretoria was somber place on Sunday...hahah!

 In the test against the AB's in 2012 - in the whole of the 2013 Super Rugby series - in pressure games in 2014 and 2015 and 2016 - you may have missed the instances - but I have not.    However, Jantjies can prove me wrong by not bottling up under pressure - so lets wa it and see what happens,    

 In the test against the AB's in 2012 - in the whole of the 2013 Super Rugby series - in pressure games in 2014 and 2015 and 2016 - you may have missed the instances - but I have not.    However, Jantjies can prove me wrong by not bottling up under pressure - so lets wa it and see what happens,    

I see Mike. Obviously you do watch a lot of Rugby and have probably done so for a great many years so I'll take your point. With respect, I do hope he proves you wrong though :)

 I wonder who played 10 in the demolition derby of da Bools? Maybe Jantjies looks better because he plays in a very good TEAM? Regardless,  he deserves a start for the Boks.

 My own take on this is Jantjies has played well enough to suggest he might help the Boks....and so he should be tried. I don't believe in the 'deserves a chance' thing. 
Having said that I am concerned with his performance under pressure. It seems to me when he starts feeling personal pressure his kicking falls off first. My own guess is if a team takes away his space he will feel that pressure.
And his style of play, with lots of decision making and chip kicks, requires nerve...it's much harder than being a Pollard or a Lambie. Actually it's more like being a Willie, and things don't always go right in Willie world.
Let's play him and find out, hopefully he puts all our fears to rest.

If he carries on his upward trajectory then he's showing amazing mental toughness to get over the slump, he's got loads of potential, I am looking forward to seeing him for the Boks. 

 I think we all are.
We can only speculate right now. He needs to run on, do his thing and show us his mettle.
I still rate Lambie as the best 10 in the land.