MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 May 2016, 21:03#1
I watch very little NH rugby but I watched this semi, forgetting Pienaar was the Ulster scrummie. What an eye opener after watching our scrumhalves in the S15. He got to every breakdown and launched 116 tight, beautiful passes. He made 34 metres in 6 runs...and actually created both of Ulster's tries, getting only one assist. The first with a clever half break....the second finding the wing cutting in from the blindside with a 'very sympathetic' pass noted by the commentators.
It was a tough match and he missed four tackles around the fringes, but those were the only blemishes on a professional performance in a test like game.
I know he is despised by Saffa fans, but technically he is head and shoulders above our local options. Given his knowledge of the Irish players eg Sexton who was playing for Leinster, and the fact that Faf is so inexperienced....Coetzee would be crazy not to choose him.
It's a man vs boys situation.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 May 2016, 23:48#2
What a farce - you watching rugby and comes up with your standard BS is absolutely a certainty. How many of those wonderful passes went to the backline - or was that not a consideration with you. To make it clear - FH got just over a third of the passes made by Pienaar - reminding all of us the last time he started in a game against the Springboks against Japan - when Burger was the stand-in flyhalf. .
And Ulster lost the game - but that of course is not a consideration. He missed 40% his tackle attempts - "because it was a tough match" What a wonderful excuse for a rotten defense contribution.
He was terrible in the WC - terribly poor - so now he is like all beyond their sell-by dates a new favourite of yours. Whats new with you? Nothing I am afraid.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 May 2016, 00:16#3
Okay so Ulster lost the game. So does that make it easier for the scrumhalf or harder. Didn't think of that one did you?
But while you are criticizing Pienaar's tacling tell us about Faf your pick who missed 50% of his tackle attempts and Jantjies who missed his one and only tackle attempt.
Go ahead, if 40% misses in a losing effort is disqualifying....surely the same is true of 50% misses in a winning effort. Stay on topic now Mong, talk. Your way out of that one.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 May 2016, 00:22#4
Not difficult - I don't know what you meant by "tacling", De Klerk is not a great tackler - but at least he is a scrummie that can make things happen on the field of play. Pienaar is a player we have seen many times in the past and he is definitely the worst choice for the Springbok. I still shudder when I think about his performance in the Japan test - the last time he started for the Springboks.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 May 2016, 00:31#5
Okay fine that's your opinion.
But since you have been so kind as to point out my problem with 'tacling', let me try to be helpful as well.
When you say 'you watching rugby and comes up with your standard BS', you have made a horrible grammatical error. It should read 'coming up'.
Now I am remiss I confess, you make this mistake often. I should have helped before, my apologies.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 May 2016, 04:50#7
This is a serious Meyer-style joke. Pienaar at 32 years of age has been a very ordinary scrummie of late and instead of starting developing a WC squad - which Meyer never did - his supporter on site is crying out to have him in the Springbok team. Pienaar is a typical NH scrummie and his effort to pass the ball on Saturday was back to the forwards aka Meyer style more than 60% of the time . He is the most mindless and predictable scrummie - who failed miserably in the WC - but is now punted as the Springbok scrummie. What a joke.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 May 2016, 05:45#8
Well let me correct you. His last game starting for the Boks was not against Japan, it was in the winning game against Argentina. In which he generally got strong ratings and played 77 minutes of the game.
Nobody is saying Pienaar is the long term solution, but right now he provides a professional presence playing against players he knows very well.
If Faf takes to his test exposure he will benefit from having Pienaar in the squad and he can evolve into the starting role. In the meantime we have a better shot of a strong showing against Ireland.
DEDenny
Captain12,893 posts
24 May 2016, 06:00#9
I'm not convinced about a player "he can evolve into the starting role" if we look at the example of Hougaard failing to evolve having had the benefit of one of the greatest scrummies of alltime in FDP. Never thought highly of Pienaar, always thought that he was overrated and if he was snails pace when he was younger then there's no point in wasting further time in him even as stopgap. I'm also not convinced that Faf is the man for the job but then again at scrumhalf the Boks are really struggling with no respectable options available.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 May 2016, 06:17#10
Well given Hougaard, Groom, Faf, Claassens, van Zyl as the alternative options I would be amazed if Pienaar didn't get the nod. He is in a different league in terms of skills. Sure he can be a bit ponderous in phase play but at least, unlike Reinach he gets himself to the breakdown.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 May 2016, 06:55#11
Thanks or the correction - he was in the team that played the Argentina "B" side and had the glorious achievement of missing 40% of his tackle attempts in that game too. He passed the ball 70 times and Pollard got lucky he got 29 balls passed to him. Great achievement of a player useless around the fringes.
just want to check the stats on the Japan game as well and it was ugly as well:-
Pienaar0/104/79/63400012/00/010/0
Watch the passing stats and look at the following recipient stats as well:-
Burger0/000/15/2237024410/11/010/0
The flyhalf role was taken over by Burger - who buggered up badly. 4 knock-ons of balls were the most notable of the above.
Another major recipient was Bismarck - ugly figures as well:-
BW du Plessis1/050/5/101501112/10/040/0
One possession loss and 4 penalties says it all. No wonder there was a squabble between Matfield and Bismarck on the field of play that caused him being left out of the team for the next match.
An ugly reminder of an inglorious WC campaign after which Meyer got fired for the exact reason you are now campaigning for.
PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
24 May 2016, 07:58#12
The bottom line is that Faf is playing in the toughest league in the world...and shining. Pienaar had his chance, and then got a hundred more, thanks for that Gysie...and failed.
Moz, try this little experiment. Go and watch and highlights on Youtube of anytime where Pienaar played and I assure you, you will struggle to find a game where his positive contributions for the Boks outweighed the negative. Screw his experience. It never helped us before and it won't help us now. I'd seriously rather have Rudy Paige...or even the term be Piet van Zyl before Pienaar. The last time Pienaar did something positive in a Bok Jersey was when he threw a nice pass to Willie in a game where we beat Oz in Oz...THREE YEARS AGO!
Remember Moz, the league Pienaar is playing in is so bad. The only reason it's hyped is because of the amount of support it gets. But watch the rugby and really it's on barely par with CC.
PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
24 May 2016, 08:04#13
And OMG please never ever ever ever ever EVER let Pienaar into Faf's head. In fact, I hope Faf gets a restraining order. Next we'll want Morne Steyn giving Jantjies advice on how to break the line. Cumon Moz.
Ag nee oom Moz. Ek is amper seker oom he begin zol rook.
24 May 2016, 09:26#14
Mozart ... how feeble minded are you actually ... ??
Are you seriously that desperate to continue with your nonsense of last year by selling us the "Pienaar is world class" scenario ... "he's our only Bok option at 9" horsesh!t ... ??
You're kidding .... pfffffffffffffhaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaa!!!!
How disappointing ...
I guess our debate is over.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 May 2016, 13:40#16
Well Dave, obviously I see things differently. I see the Hougaard that lost us the Irish and Welsh tests in 2014.....spilling 2 balls on the Irish line, and taking a penalty against Wales tapping it and then kicking it directly into touch. A calamity under pressure.
As for Faf, nice young player, starting him in his first test is doing him no favours.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 May 2016, 14:10#18
Dave seriously...one of your big all time calls was Pienaar at flyhalf. When I pointed out to you how wrong you were, you wouldn't let go. Now suddenly you are anti Pienaar. He was never a flyhalf, but is still a very competent scrumhalf.
Last I saw of Hougaard who has been given so many chances, he was a basket case.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 May 2016, 15:14#20
That was 7 years ago - not the past year. Players performance can and do vary as times move on. Pienaar was 25 then and is 32 now. His performances last year was seriously defective and an indication of a player on the slide. But nthat bever occurs to you.
By the way the players you supported at flyhalf (Morne Steyn and Fransie Steyn) turned out to be some of the greatest flops from 2012 onwards. Fransie Steyn started what could have been a glorious career in 2006-07, but he went to seed because he could not control his gluttony and became grossly fat and slow. Morne Steyn was never a real flyhalf - maybe a high school second team flyhalf at best. Both had no idea about decision-making as a flyhalf and both turned out to be serial FLOPS.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 May 2016, 15:16#21
You simply don't understand the player Dave. Pienaar is not a dog that learns new tricks. Expecting him to learn test flyhalf play was naive. He was always a scrumhalf and a competent one.
24 May 2016, 16:13#22
Hougaard's choices show that he doesn't want to play for the Boks this year, atleast not in the 15 man game, he wants to go to Rio with the Sevens.
24 May 2016, 18:07#24
@Shezza, can you really blame Hougaard for his choices? He was released by the Bulls, to go to Japan, got back from Japan and was then kind of flogged of by SARU to the Kings, of all teams. He was then scooped up by Worcester where he immediately slotted in and made a huge difference, putting his 15 man game solidly back on track, IMO. He was then contracted for the national sevens side, just like Habana (also playing abroad), Kankowski and De Allende. Does the same go for them three that is going for Hougaard? Why not question Habana, Kankowski and De Allende's commitment as well?
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 May 2016, 18:28#25
Vlag....I think you have misread Shez!!
24 May 2016, 19:55#26
I don't think so. He has by the looks of things implied, due to Hougaard's choices i.e. signing for Worcester and the Bok Sevens side, that he has given up on playing for the Bok 15 side.
That brings another thought to mind. They have decided that there will be no contracts for overseas Bokke, but it is OK to contract overseas Blitsbokke. Strange.
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
24 May 2016, 21:05#27
Hougaart and Faf is our only real options at 9. Pienaar? Nooit. In one of the RWC matches where the boks had to make the most tackles ever in a match, Pienaar was playing 67 odd minutes without making one tackle...and it was sort of a trend in other similar matches too. Sorry, but a BEEEG NO from me.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 May 2016, 22:13#29
Actually not spot on...what Draad has in his head never happened.
Against Japan Pienaar made 2 tackles/missed none...played 57 minutes. F du Preez made 1 in 23 minutes.
Against Samoa came on at minute 74 ....made a tackle missed none.
Against Scotland came on at minute 78...no tackles
Against USA....didn't play
Against Wales was not subbed on
Against NZ was not subbed on
Against the Bargies he made 6 tackles and missed 4.
So your ' beeg no' Draad is based on disinformation. The junk you guys have in your brains always amazes me. Did education cease by 1975 one wonders.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 May 2016, 22:28#30
Pienaar has been bog ordinary for some time now......part the reason the Boks failed under Meyer.
The biggest disappointment with Pienaar is how passive he has been.....almost looks scared to get stuck in at the base and assert himself. Much like Paige has been for the Bulls.
You need energy and assertiveness at 9.....something Smith brings to NZ, Phipps does to Oz, Care and Young do to England, Murray does to Ireland.......what Faf does for the Lions and what an in form Hougaard has always done
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 May 2016, 23:06#31
More assertions when confronted with facts.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 May 2016, 23:30#32
The only fact is.....Pienaar has been a test flop for a good 2 or 3 years now.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 May 2016, 23:56#33
That's not a fact, it's an opinion....shared by many other fools admittedly,
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
25 May 2016, 00:14#34
Yeah like all those fools who chose CJ as Ireland player of the year.
Moz if you are looking for a rugby fool......look in the mirror
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 May 2016, 02:33#35
Nope all I see is a well preserved 68 year old, with two advanced degrees. You sure the fool wasn't the porker in your mirror?
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
25 May 2016, 06:15#36
Ok Moz, I should have checked the facts. It must be the Jap match I'm thinking of. Will look at the stats later before I say more.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 May 2016, 07:57#37
Draad
Mozart's usage of stats is a joke in bad taste. He never gives the full info on players - those he likes he only uses the positives and cuts out the negatives - those he dislikes he gives the negatives and cut out the positives.
The other problem is he does not clarify anything in dealing with the issue. Here I mean is that he disregards the ball possession and territory statistics and the simple fact that if a team has a 65% possession stats and a similar territory advantage they would essentially make less tackles than would be the case otherwise.
Pienaar like other scrummies Meyer used could have suffered from a lunatic game plan of Meyer to pass balls back to the forwards and substantially ignore the backline players. However, Mozart quoted his number of passes made without dealing with the fact that it also happened in the Ulster game as well - so the question really is - is he up to international standard and the answer is an emphatic NO WAY - he is way pa st his sell-by date.
