PRO 14 gauged against Super Rugby

I guess most of you have read the article on top right side of Rugby News on this site.

The Cheetahs boss says it is MUCH tougher than Super Rugby.

I guess he is qualified to know and this is a nail in the coffin of the ongoing debate about rugby standards in the north versus the south.

There have been conflicting takes on this on this forum.

I think Saffex is the best member to comment on this issue. Ol' Mike and probably most Southerners don't agree. But I'm inclined to believe the view of actual coaches and players that have tested both...it's practical experience versus opinion and hearsay.

Saffex, thanks for your reply... I referred to you because I respect your opinion especially because you are based in England and yes I too considered and thought the Cheetahs coach statement could or might  be "sour grapes" and therefore not valid. I'm satisfied that you are correct in this comparison. Both The Cheetahs and Kings have been a big disappointment though.

And yes the PRO 14 is not a good comparison on further analysis.

On the otherhand it does appear that Northern rugby is on par with Southern, but it is not really possible to accurately compare them because of different conditions, travel etc.

Be that as it may, franchise/club rugby is not one of my favourites...International Rugby is what turns me on and the flagship of rugby. The WC being the ultimate. I expect Ireland, Wales and England to really test the quality of Southern rugby.

Very good and informative post....thanks for your effort Ceradyne.

Well, they probably don't NEED their first choice players when playing against the Cheetahs or the Kings...

Saffex why can't you be reasonable to somebody who tried to help...it's his input and his opinion and to me it was genuine but conflicting with your view and take...no need to insult him.

I respected your opinion too...to attack him with your opinions is unacceptable behaviour...he was kind and helpful and respectful...he did NOT tell me I'm an idiot...which I probably am as far as NH rugby is concerned.

I should never have raised the subject and yes I don't expect us all to hold hands and sing Kumbaya but at least control ourselves, make our points without insults.

I've always enjoyed your inputs until you fly off the handle and start swearing and insulting.

No wonder your side kick has cottoned on to such similar behaviour...lets build this forum, not destroy it.

Why would one want to watch a watered down side run onto the field?

I have a lot better things to do with my time ... and money.

Nice posts Stavanger...pay no attention to rude posters...we have a few here but generally the majority are decent guys.

They are getting better - but they are reaping the benefits of the Southern Hemisphere feeder systems.

Nope. The SH feeder system takes advantage of the opportunities provided by the NH. Without them, SH rugby collapses, it has grow n too big to be sustained by SH alone.

Why would Munster play their “reserve” players in 18 games and give their top players 7 games in the season?

If there are any clubs who have more opportunity and reason to play reserve players more, it would be the French and English clubs.

It can be understood that shipping away a landgrabbed environment has warped perception, still, in other places, people rank profitable activities.

Irish rugby takes money from the six nations, tour, ECs and then pro 14. English and french rugby in particular, make money out of their leagues first.

Irish sides put their first class squads where the bread snd butter are.

Stavanger ... watching the local high school play against their top competition is most certainly entertaining ... and it has nothing to do with what quality their players are. One cheers just as loudly as one would in a test match. Besides that ... they tend to field the best team they can.

However ... I certainly would not be charmed if the Super Rugby team that I support kept fielding their 2nd stringers. Why would I be happy with that? Why would I bother watching the match? I certainly won't pay good money to watch a water down team pretending rugby.

Yes ... I can see the fun in touring around and seeing the sights. That would most definitely be the highlight of following a watered down side around. In fact, I may just find myself enjoying my lunch with a few new faces and end up forgetting why I was there in the first place.

Sebastien ... there is no need to apologies to him on my behalf.

He has no idea of your drunken binges ... and that one of your drunken episodes could quite easily see you turn on him ... using an assortment of very colourful language.

It is a side to your personality that we've all seen ... many times ... so please ... just hush up and mind your own business ... and let him and I engage in a chat in whatever manner we please.

Thanks a lot!!

Cleancut, for me and for a lot of others who follow the Pro 14 it is an issue that sticks in the back of your mind. Of course you want to see the matches where the teams play their strongest possible side.

There is  multiple reasons for doing this. Many of the Irish provinces top players have duel contracts with both the provinces and the IRFU. This allows the provinces and IRFU to pool their resources to keep the top players in Ireland by offering wages more comparable to what English and French clubs can offer. The IRFU dictates to the provincess how many games these players can play in a season as part of their player welfare system. So even if the clubs wanted to play these players sometimes they can't. Then of course a lot of top players are missing over the 6 Nations period and of course injuries are sometimes the reasons players can't be played. Finally when you factor in the priority for the top Irish provinces is Europe, they will often rest players during a league game the week before a European match to ensure they are in good shape for that. So its not a huge surprise that the top players may only play in 25-50% of league games with some exceptions (like A-list players who not eligible to play for Ireland yet and foreign players who will never be eligible and thus will play in most of the league games)

Player welfare is extremely important. Irish players know they can go to France and command considerable higher wages than they would get at home but they know they will be flogged like a work horse. I've also read numerous articles in English media from English players complaining they are overplayed and struggling to cope with the demands of their league, European rugby and international duty. One even suggested taking a wage cut if it mean't he would be played less. Rugby is a tough old game and really if you look at it, its suffering a massive and constant injury crisis for the last number of years.

The system also benefits the national set up by forcing the provinces to develop players, instead of playing the same players over and over.

For the likes of Munster, Leinster and Glasgow even fielding mostly a B side with 2-3 A-listers per game throughout the season, they still will comfortable make the top 6 and get into Europe. That's why I've love to know how the Super Rugby South African teams would compare. Would they put enough pressure on these teams to force them to field stronger teams more consistently or risk missing out on European qualification.

I do not agree with your view that its pretend rugby. Even if its not the strongest possible team out on the field the matches can still be high quality and an entertaining affair. Of course you can get the odd dud matches, but I've seen dud matches when the full strength teams are out as well occasionally. If you want the very best all the time you would never bother going to anything. Watch my local rugby team...nah can't be bothered their a bunch of amateurs playing pretend rugby, call me when the All Blacks are playing!. Do I want to attend my childs school play.....nah its not  the Royal Albert Hall, production values are rubbish! No you can go to these events and still have a good time and be entertained.

Anyway the TLDR version of my post. I enjoy the Pro 14 but know it could be better, the way I think it could be better is if a few strong teams where to join (i.e South African SR teams) and make reaching the play offs and European qualifying spot more difficult to achieve.

Stavanger ... I see your point.

We have a tendency in South Africa to “flog the work horse” without mercy, and this usually ends up with some long term injuries ... which as you know, hurts the team a lot more, than having a top player rested.

Many of our players are contracted elsewhere in the off season and when they return they're either tired, over played or injured. 

I have a few favourites on crutches as we speak ... and their absence is rather frustrating. Patience has never been a strength of mine.

We also seem to flog our coaches at the best of times by putting a lot of pressure on them. We’re a demanding and unreasonable lot and insist on having the best dished up all the time.

In the end squad depth would play an important role for a successful season to be had. I’m sure that the best possible team is always a priority and so it should be. Looking after your assets is key.  We can learn from this.

You are most fortunate to have so many beautiful cities a mere stone throw away. It’s not always possible for us to travel long distances in support of our team. Australasia is a long way away.

I envy you.

There has been a lot of talk regarding the possible inclusion of additional South African sides in the Pro 14. I’m not sure what will come of it.

I think this may be the very reason why so many changes have been tabled for the southern hemisphere competitions (Super Rugby & 4 Nations) ... clearly the north i s been seen as a threat now.

I would love to see the Lions play in the Pro 14.

Who knows ... it may still happen.

Drunken binges...what's your case...utter tripe I might have have a glass of wine with my wife now and then...but I stopped a long time ago and never been a slave to this stuff, it really is a waste of money and I'm exceptionally fit and healthy...that's very important to me as I climb in the Berg. .

Fit and healthy ... ??

Really?

Nice.

Please accept my apology.

CleanCut, player welfare is a delicate balancing act. We all want to see the best players but the human body can't cope with current rugby demands.

The Pro 14 is 19 rounds in the regular season and potentially 1-3 more rounds if you make the play offs. The Champions Cup or Challenge Cup adds at least 6 more games in the group stages and up to 3 more if you make the final. 

A typically international season for the Northern Hemisphere would add on 5 6 Nations games, a summer tour of 3 matches and a November series of 3-4 matches.

Something has to give. I'm sure players are rested at some point in all leagues, maybe they should do it more, and maybe when it comes to the Pro 14 too many players are rested but to be honest I think their is simply too many games which is at odds with me saying I want more teams in the league and I want to see the best players more often.  I don't know how you reconcile the two different thought processes.

That is unless some rule changes are introduced that make the game less physical. Seems a lot of modern rugby is car crash rugby where you don't try to run round your opponent but run through him.

I am lucky to live where I live. You can make nice weekend city breaks for games, most destinations are no more than a little over an hour flight away and at most a little over 3 hours. Prices aren't too expensive Your unfortunately geographically isolated from the rest of the rugby world but hey I'm sure you have got some stunningly beautiful countryside to console yourselves with.

When it comes to Super Rugby, I've nothing against it. Its not shown over here and its not followed. Given that it contains the 3 traditional superpowers of world rugby's club teams one would assume its a high quality product but I'm aware its been struggling for a few years keeping fans engaged.

Reading around a few websites, what I've picked up on is that their is some resentment among South African's who feel they are propping up the competition and New Zealand rugby financially and that the long haul travel affects them the most. Also a feeling that Super Rugby's expansion diluted the competition as well as the conference system being too convoluted. 

There is reservations about going North. Firstly it could be seen as turning tail and running from the too strong competition in Super Rugby. You will no doubt get abuse from Kiwis and Aussies about running away. There is also the general sentiment to be the best your must regularly play the best i.e. play against New Zealand clubs in Super Rugby and play against New Zealand in the Rugby Championship. But taken in isolation,  I think this has been sentiment has been disproved, you have been playing against them for years now and have fallen back and stayed behind, so there must be other factors at play, such as the player drain to the North, and without wanting to delve into politics I also hear there is issues with quota's affecting the quality of South African teams. 

Another concern is that if the rest of the Super Rugby teams go north, this would offer more exposure of South Africa's rugby talent to the the north and might make the player drain even worse as the richer northern hemisphere clubs start throwing head spinning figures at player after seeing them up close.

One other concern of going north is the quality of the opposition in the Pro 14. Well I'd admit Zebre and Dragons are quite weak and have been for a long time, but the midfield is quite decent and competitive, while the top 3 teams are very strong and would compete well with any club team in the world. I know the Cheetahs and Kings are not great teams at the moment, but at least South Africa's worst is comparable to the Pro 14's worst.

So whats in it for both sides if South African teams went north.

Well from the Pro 14 of view, straight up again it comes down to money. While the IRFU have said they are confident they can keep most players at home by offering decent wages and player welfare policy, they have admitted they can't afford everyone. There is a fear that the Pro 14 will get left behind by English and French clubs financially and that will eventually result in the loss of competitiveness. Hence the idea of pooling our financial resources with South Africa could offset that imbalance. I don't believe the Pro 14 is looking to match the English leagues in money, just close the gap somewhat and let our player welfare system do the rest. No one is deluded to think we can match the insane money in France, the English aren't even close. 

Now why would South Africa want to move from propping up one league to another. Well I don't think the Pro 14 is struggling financially, its doing okay, its just we need a bigger market to tap into because the Pro 14 nations are small countries. Italy is big of course but Rugby is a minor sport there so not much money there. If South African teams don't join, the Pro 14 won't collapse, which is what I hear might happen to New Zealand rugby if South Africa leaves Super Rugby.

The main sponsor of Pro 14 is Guinness and I believe they view South Africa as an important market.

Secondly South Africa is an established tier 1 nation with strong rugby teams. If they where to join it would improve the overall quality of the league and that might go someone to address the issue of too many top players being rested during the season. They won't be able to if the competition is tough. What I'd loved to know from the posters on here is how strong they would think the Pro 14 + the 4 SA Super Rugby teams would be and how it would compare to other leagues.

Whats in for South African teams?

Well easier travel arrangements, the flights would still be quite long for South African teams but there would be less time zone changes, this does help with player welfare.

More frequent exposure to Northern hemisphere playing conditions. 

More favorable viewing hours for TV audience. No getting up in the middle of the night to watch matches.

If it proves more popular than Super Rugby and your joining with a financially better off league already, there will be more money in it for South African teams which makes them better able to hold on to their players.

Its potentially a gateway into European cup competitions. I don't think South African teams should bother joining if they are not eligible for Champions Cup qualification spots. While I don't think the Pro 14 would have a problem with this, its not up to the Pro 14 alone, the French and English clubs would have to agree to let you in. 

Anyway, sorry for the long post. If you didn't fall asleep, well done.

No problem.

A lot of us have misbehaved here at times...sometimes just to let off steam rather than  kicking the dog.

CC has your puppy taken you for a walk yet...hahaha

Stavanger it is good that we have an Irishman on board, especially one from Galway...Connacht rugby has an interesting past...you can clarify and correct our faults regarding HM rugby.

I see the ex Aussie 7's coach Andy Friend is now your coach.

I'm from Irish descent, grandad was from Cork and immigrated with brother to SA and his brother actually played for SA against the British International in 2 tests that the Springboks won ...there were only 3 tests and the Br Isles won the other.

Hi Sebastien

I don't actually live in Galway but was born in County Galway.

I from Athlone, which the river Shannon runs through, the east side of the town in county Westmeath is in Leinster and the west side of town is county Roscommon which is in Connacht. I'm from the east side but Athlone's local team the Buccaneers which is also east side has always been associated with Connacht rugby and been something of a feeder team to the province. I live week days in Dublin though where I work.

Connacht is an interesting case in Irish rugby. It was the poor relation of the 4 rugby provinces, it was considered the feeder province for the other 3. A good few years back there was talk of disbanding it. While its still the smallest of the 4 provinces , its now doing well. It all kicked up a gear a few years back when Pat Lambe came onboard.

He did two things.

1. Play an exciting brand of rugby. Connacht under Lam where legendary for never kicking the ball. They ran absolutely everything and from everywhere and would keep possession for like 65%+ of the match. It didn't matter if they where defensively weak the opponents didn't get the ball enough to win. They trusted their handling skills and eventually they would find a way through to score after god knows how many phases. It won them the league in 2016 which was quite a shock.

2. Pat had the team go around to all the local schools and local public events in Connacht and really promote the game and the team to the young. The players found it quite cringey at first, but they really got into the spirit of it and it payed it. This along with winning more and they started developing quite a following. More bums on seats.

At one stage, people where so enamored with them that Pat Lambe was being talked about in the media as the next Ireland coach and why didn't the national team copy the exciting brand of rugby Connacht play instead of boring old Joe Schimdts methodical way of playing, like they actually asked Schimdt this in press conferences.

Anyway after winning the league Lambe took a massive money to move to Bristol. He was replaced by Kieran Keane but the results dropped steeply and Keane turned out to be something of a misery guts and was let go after a season.

Andy Friend has proven very popular. His style of rugby is much more pragmatic than Lamb's but still quite attractive to watch. He's getting decent results. Connacht have a great chance of the play offs and getting into the Champions Cup next year. He seems like a really decent guy. Comes across very well in interviews. He was actually sitting two feet in front of me a few weeks back in the Bucaneers club bar in Athlone, The Bounty a day after flying back from the Glasgow match, seems like he enjoys the Guinness here.

Asides from that Connacht have just been granted permission to redevelop their home ground, the Sportsground. The Sportsground is actually a shared venue with the original owner a greyhound racing track. Capacity is just under 8,000 currently, a lot of it standing. But the redevelopment which is going cost €30 million will see it increase its capacity to 12,000, as well as some new stands going in, their also going get new training facilities, such as partially indoor all weather training pitch as well I believe. This should bring their training facilities up to the standards of the other provinces an area were they have lagged behind. Its a great little venue, you get right up close to players. I'll post up some photo's of it if you like.