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Probabvle Bok side based on Mondays training

Started by Beeno115 REPLIES537 VIEWS· 05 Jun 2012, 11:16
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BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
05 Jun 2012, 11:16
#1
05 Jun 2012, 11:16#1

Ex Supersport

Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer looks set to unleash another shock when he names his starting team for Saturday’s first test against England. If the way the Boks ran in an open training session at Northwood College on Monday afternoon is anything to go by, there will be three new caps in the starting team at Kings Park. Eben Etzebeth and Juandre Kruger looks set to make up a strong but all new second row, with the other newcomer being the talented Sharks flanker Marcell Coetzee. The backline will be made up mostly of experienced test players, with the only surprise being fullback, where Zane Kirchner might be the shock selection ahead of Patrick Lambie. The Sharks player was the incumbent in the last line of defence in last year’s World Cup, and after acquitting himself well there, it was anticipated he would continue in the No 15 jersey against England. However, Kirchner spent most of the training session in the shadow first choice backline and the smart money should be on the Bulls fullback facing England ahead of the Durbanite, who may not have been helped in his quest to be the Bok fullback by the fact that he has played most of the season at flyhalf for the Sharks. Perhaps the most amazing thing about the Monday training session was the full bill of fitness that was reported beforehand, and the full participation of the entire squad. With two tough derbies having been played just two days earlier, it was quite startling that this was an occasion where the usual trend of having players sit out on a Monday to nurse injuries was broken. There are effectively 38 players in the squad, with a group of six players, including the two young Stormers, Frans Malherbe and Siya Kolisi, being invited to join the squad during the build-up in order to gain experience of being part of the Bok group. All 38 trained on Monday, something that is quite freaky if you consider how tough the Loftus derby between the Bulls and Stormers was. So it seems that one part of the Meyer wishlist -- that there be no more injuries to contend with after the derby weekend -- was granted by the rugby gods. He should also be pleased with the condition of the overseas players, Ruan Pienaar and Frans Steyn. Frans Steyn looks likely to be the only overseas based player to line up in the starting team, and the good news for Bok fans on that score is that Steyn looks a lot trimmer than he was when he reported for national duty this time last year and in 2010. The televised evidence from the French leagues suggested he might be out of condition, but team doctor Craig Roberts said at the lunch time press conference that Steyn was in good condition and the training session proved it. If anything he may even have lost some weight since last year. Having three newcomers in the pack might prove challenging for a match against England, and there will be a lot of pressure on Kruger in particular as he looks to fill the massive boots vacated by Victor Matfield as the leader in the lineouts. “The team has not been announced yet, but if Juandre is in the team he will take charge of the lineouts, something he has experience of doing at the Bulls,” said Meyer. The inexperience in the Bok pack will be partially off-set by the fact that there are five Sharks who know each other well in the unit, with the front-row of Beast Mtawarira, Bismarck and Jannie du Plessis being joined by flanks Coetzee and Willem Alberts. The latter will also have a big role to play at lineout time as he fits into his new role as a starting blindside flank after playing most of his previous test matches as an impact substitute.

PROBABLE SPRINGBOK TEAM: Zane Kirchner, JP Pietersen, Jean de Villiers (capt), Frans Steyn, Bryan Habana, Morne Steyn, Francois Hougaard, Pierre Spies, Willem Alberts, Marcell Coetzee, Juandre Kruger, Eben Etzebeth, Jannie du Plessis, Bismarck du Plessis, Beast Mtawarira

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
05 Jun 2012, 13:10
#2
05 Jun 2012, 13:10#2

You'll never keep everyone happy, but there have definately been worse Springbok teams than this one. And think about it this way, you'll have Lambie and Pienaar on the bench as utility backs/ impact players. Lamibe can easily fill 10 and 15, so that might be why he is not starting. Kirchner is a specialist fullback, and is therefore not as versatile off the bench. The locks are young but both are very talented. Spies is not the best, but who would we replace him with??? There is nobody. My biggest problem is Jannie Du Plessis, he is a liability, and we have better 3's available. He does have experience, so I get why he is there, but I just don't rate him.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Jun 2012, 13:44
#3
05 Jun 2012, 13:44#3

I am a Kirchner fan, love his attacking instincts, but Lambie should be starting. JP or JJ should have been at 13. Mvovo should be starting ahead of Habana. Jantjies ahead of Morne, Flip ahead of Kruger and Potgieter ahead of Alberts

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
05 Jun 2012, 13:50
#4
05 Jun 2012, 13:50#4

Kirchner is the poorest full back of all the Super 15 franchises - he has been useless this year - especially under the high ball and in defence.   I think he is the weakest link in this case.    We have slow Pietersen on the wing - a carthorse if ever there was one.   Then there is the worthless Morne and the out of form Hougaard in the team.   The other poor ones are Spies (the show pony)  and  Alberts - the fat useless bugger.   

With that crowd in the team - who is going to pull us through - six passengers and nine players (no chance).

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Jun 2012, 14:27
#5
05 Jun 2012, 14:27#5

Rubbish Mike, Kirchner has been good this year as he always is. I am with der Aristo on this guy. I really do not get how people cannot see the good in this guy. Whenever he gets the ball he looks to counter attack, he is quick with a great swerve. I rate the man always have, but Lambie is better.

JP slow, get a grip man you really do make things up. Why on earth aged 25 would JP suddenly be too slow, what bullshit. JP is a test star proven his worth years ago - one of those few backs who can create something from nothing. He is powerful and slips tackles with ease.

Hougaard is one of the best backs in the game, how can anyone be stupid enough to even contemplate excluding him. On what do you base his lack of form? Let me guess 2 charge downs in a seasons worth?

Spies is in good form and by some distance our best 8. Alberts should not be playing, Potgieter should be

PI
Pine in IrelandClub Pro101 posts
05 Jun 2012, 15:03
#6
05 Jun 2012, 15:03#6

Joe is a much better fullback than Kirchner. Kirchner is dead ordinary.With lambie on the bench, i dont think jantjies will make the match 22. I think potgieter is still injured, and will be the mix for the 2nd test. I really hope heyneke can motivate spies, cos he offers nothing around the ruck, and his defence is poor.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Jun 2012, 15:42
#7
05 Jun 2012, 15:42#7

Nonsense, Kirchner is anything but ordinary. Joe is far too small for test rugby, I know it Meyer knows it and good on him

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
05 Jun 2012, 15:55
#8
05 Jun 2012, 15:55#8

Kirchner has improved  a bit on his passing skills but he does not have the head of a Joe Pietersen. I dont rate Kirchners judgement.  Lambie should have got it but lets see how Kirchner goes. Kirchner and Lambie are both 92 kg. Lambie to me can break a line better and is smarter. Also can kick for poles.

I think Lambie was a bit shaky against the Lions and maybe that was what settled it in Meyer's mind. Lack of practice at 15? Kirchner is too often a headless chicken storming up on attack only to get thumped and lose postion or failing to link with other players. That said I have noticed an improvement this season in his game. Hope he doesnt do anything stupid.

Lambie at WC was very good - a cool head on his shoulders - vital in  a test.

 

 

PI
Pine in IrelandClub Pro101 posts
05 Jun 2012, 16:06
#9
05 Jun 2012, 16:06#9

@ saffex. So what u saying is,it doesent matter if Joe  tackles,catches,runs faster and kicks better than kirchner,his to small.Talk about nonsense......

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Jun 2012, 16:11
#10
05 Jun 2012, 16:11#10

Who said Joe runs, catches, is faster or tackles better than Kirchner? But as I keep saying you need skill and size at test level, Joe has no size to impose himself physically - I know it, so does Meyer its the way test has evolved. Todays test between Scotland and Oz had Fainga at 92kgs as the lightest centre/wing/fullback. Not that I rate him, I dont think he is a test standard centre, but my point is more about size in modern test rugby

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
05 Jun 2012, 16:34
#11
05 Jun 2012, 16:34#11

Kirchner will never score the try Joe Pietersen scored against the Highlanders- nhe is totally one-diemnsional.   I saw Pietersen in 2007 and he was not the fastest wing on display in the WC.   Since then he has bulked up and now he would be beaten by any of the loosies over a hundred meters - but not by  Alberts.    He had a poor record at 13 and the Sharks did him no favour by moving him there.   The idea was to bring in faster players on the wing and see whether Pietersen would be able to perform at center.  He obviously did not - so now back to wing - where his speed again would be a detrimental factor.    I stay with what i said and we shall see on Saturday whether I am right or wrong.

There is no way that Hougaard did play well in the last five Super 15 games he played in - so what will make a difference on Saturday?    We know that Meyer wants to play 10 man rutgby - with no variation and Steyn would stand back so far that any backline play would be impossible and would be stopped before it reaches the advantage line - so there goes our chances.    We have two dead slow and useless loosies as well - so any maul would be a disaster and we would have turnovers galore.

Saffex - I know you would start screaming about what I said - but you have no idea about when a player is a square trying to get into a round hole.    Pietersen is and so is Kirchner.   Watch the disaster on Saturday -   remeber I forecasted a Stormers win last Saturday and I forecast a Lions win this coming Saturday.   I only hope the team is not utterly disgraced like happen with the Junior Boks.   To come back from a disgraceful  loss would be a virtual impossibility.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Jun 2012, 16:38
#12
05 Jun 2012, 16:38#12

Mike making it up about JP's pace carries no weight at all. There has never been an issue with his pace and if there was Meyer would not be stupid enough to play him on the wing on Sat.

Joe is too small for test rugby - end of debate

BE
BenjaminRookie28 posts
06 Jun 2012, 04:16
#13
06 Jun 2012, 04:16#13

Gents your argument over Peterson is immaterial, since we all know that Meyer's gameplan will expressly forbid throwing the ball wide- and our centers should stop their wingers getting the chance to run around JP. Peterson will be called upon to field high balls, kick for touch and tackle. He has proven that he can tackle and has beefed up to be even more effective in this regard-his kicking and fielding remain suspect.Kirshner and Habana are even more suspect than JP under pressure-we really need Lambie's cool head back there. If Steyn outkicks our opponents we will prevail, but if he fails to find touch watch out.......

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Jun 2012, 05:26
#14
06 Jun 2012, 05:26#14

There are two issues here - the one is the speed issue insofar as pietersen is concerned.   I am afraid I have to stick with my impression that Pietersen is in fact s;lower than Coetzee and Daniel as loosies and that in a 100 meter race - De Villiers will beat Pietersen by 10 lengths.

However, Benjamin raised an interesting point I will agree on and that is that hopefully the center defence would be so strong that the opposition wings will not get the ball so as to run around Pietersen - whose defensive technique is one-dimentional.   Force the opposition player into touch is the main element for defence.   That is why Pietersen flopped badlyy at 13.   Saffex - do not start screaming.  Pietersen was moved from 13 and replaced by a 20 year old for very good reason by the Sharks and since that happened the Sharks started to win more games in Super 15.

That brings me to the role of Pietersen in the test - I could not describe it better than Benjamin did.   The question is whether Kirchner and Pietersen would be able to field the high ball effectively?   The jury is out on that one - but my personal belief is that they are not and we will see on Saturday whether they can match up with requirements.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
06 Jun 2012, 12:16
#15
06 Jun 2012, 12:16#15

Mike you really do speak a load of old cow pooh. Based on what exactly do you assert that JP has got slower or that Daniel would beat him. Next you will be telling me you have watched them run a 100m race. Please stop making this bullshit up, its laughable.

JP was moved back to wing, because Jordaan, a centre, was drafted into the side after great Vodacom performances - its hat simple. JP is a better 13 than Jean will be

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Jun 2012, 12:32
#16
06 Jun 2012, 12:32#16

Saffex

The answer is very, very simple.  Pietersen flopped at 13 and he was moved out to wing.   Whenever he played at 13 - the bottom fell out of the Sharks team and in virtually all games he played at 13, the Sharks lost or performed badly.   Backline play went awry - end of story.

The problem with pietersen is that they moved him to 13 - because of lack of speed and put in two speedier wings.   Did not really worked out because it was not successful with him at center.   I wish they would organize a hundred meter race for the Springboks - that will conclusively prove my point.   It happened in the past - when Big Joe beat the Springboks wings - so that would not happen again.

Pietersen - whatch him and Habana when they follow up kicks.   Pietersen would regularly come second best and because he is a few meters too slow - the catcher will run around him or disposed of th ball and start an attacking movement.   carthorse naterial this one is recently.

Saffex - please do me a favour - watch games without emotion and do not insult cow dung. 

 

— END OF THREAD —

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