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Proteas need a few tweaks and they could be competitive at the T20WC

Started by Mozart30 REPLIES522 VIEWS· 21 Feb 2016, 23:00
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 Feb 2016, 23:00
#1
21 Feb 2016, 23:00#1
Firstly the obvious one.....replace Wiese. He hasn't delivered with bat or ball. Secondly pick an alternative to Abbott. His 130 k balls outside the off stump have induced a few batsmen to make mistakes....but not through any skill of his. We would be better off with Morkel.
One might be tempted to drop Duminy for de Kock, but in India having a second spinner might be helpful...even if the Sapp theory of his being the 5th ODI bowler has been completely discredited. And much as Duminy has disappointed I still have more faith in him than Rossouw or Miller.
So de Kock needs to come in for Rossouw or Miller. To me Miller is marginally the more likely to fold under pressure. It's a close call but I would pick de Kock and drop Miller.

As far as batting order goes Amla opens...but with whom. I would tend to go with AB if opening motivates him, as it appeared today. If that's the case we have an order something like this:
AmlaABFafRossouwDe KockDuminyAN OtherMorrisRabadaTahir Morkel

That team has world class bats in Amla and AB.....and in Rabada a relatively unknown new weapon that is working. But the Wiese slot remains a mystery. Behardien seems the likely choice given the history, but is simply not strong enough to complete the bowling roster.
The obvious answer is to move Morris to 7 and include a specialist bowler....but it might be a mistake to take away his free swinging role.
That unsolved issue aside, the nice run of wins against England has to help going into the WC.
AG
AgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
22 Feb 2016, 00:31
#2
22 Feb 2016, 00:31#2
AmlaABQDKFafRoussouwMillerMorrisSteynRabadaAbbottTahir
Morkel isn't part of the squad Moz but I think he's first reserve if Steyn doesn't recover
The above would be my line up, with Duminy coming in if we needed another bowling option.
AG
AgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
22 Feb 2016, 00:32
#3
22 Feb 2016, 00:32#3
 Abbott has had a good tour in the limited over games, and I'm one of his biggest critics. As things stand he should be one our starting seamer at the WC
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 Feb 2016, 00:52
#4
22 Feb 2016, 00:52#4
 Problem is with each bowler limited to 4 overs....you have no flexibility or injury protection with 5 bowlers. And  given the inconsistency of Miller and Rossouw...we depend enormously on the top 4 bats.
But I wasn't sure if Steyn was available. If he is he would get a nod ahead of Morkel. I'm still stumped on number 7 though.
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
22 Feb 2016, 02:33
#5
22 Feb 2016, 02:33#5
 Wiese has to go and Morris has to start......no if's, no but's. I would start Miller ahead of Rossouw but Duminy as a fifth bowler is a no-no....we've been there before and we've seen the disastrous results. I'd pick Morkel ahead of Abbott and Behardien ahead of Duminy. As openers I'd start with QDK and AB with Amla at first drop. Anyone interested in the betting odds?....India are favourites at $3.40 and the P roteas and Oz are at $6....it's silly to go past the Indians but I'm stepping into the breach by tipping and betting on the Windies @ $8.50/1
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 Feb 2016, 03:39
#6
22 Feb 2016, 03:39#6
Duminy is no 5th bowler, but nor is Behardien. They are probably alternative 6th bowlers. And it's pretty unclear who should get the nod. I might go with Duminy because of the Indian pitches, but I'm hardly adamant about it.
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
22 Feb 2016, 05:10
#7
22 Feb 2016, 05:10#7
 Duminy as a bowler was a nightmare  during the WC, nothings changed since then. Yes 6 of one half a dozen of the other but I think Behardien is showing a bit more with the bat, Duminy's form with the bat is in decline.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Feb 2016, 09:37
#8
22 Feb 2016, 09:37#8
 The argument really is irrelevant.  Amla was a nightmare on Indian pitches and failed there badly during the past year.   So the whole argument opens upo anothe nightmare.
Behardien is also a nightmare on Indian pitches and so is some of our bowlers.  In T20's one has to look at the performances of players in India - where the WC is being played and especially at what players have done in the IPL.
All these arguments are useless and irrelevant - I believe.  Playing in India we can wrote off Amla as a factor.  He is bound to fail in that country - as happened always in the past.  
I have serious reservations about opening with De Villiers - but am prepared to accept that one.  I think that that players capable of performing in India should be accommodated in the team and in that case I would go for the following players:-
1  De Kock2  Du Plessis3  De Villiers4  Miller5  Rossouw6  Duminy7  Wiese8  Morris9  Steyn10 Rabada11 Tahir
However, that will not be acceptable from a racial selection perspective and we will have to play Amla somewhere in the batting line-up - where he is bound to flop in India.   So lets hope they find a place for him - he is a square peg in a round hole in India - but that would leave us in serious trouble batting-wise.   We will go into games with 5 functioning batsmen and two all-rounders.       

BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
22 Feb 2016, 10:27
#9
22 Feb 2016, 10:27#9
 What are the current racist selection requirements at international level ?
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Feb 2016, 10:54
#10
22 Feb 2016, 10:54#10
 Apparently it is 6 players other than Whites - but sometimes tweaked to 5 and even 4.
After the 2015 WC fiasco I think that it would work out if they play players only on the basis of performance.  SA Cricket would not want to be caught out again lying through their teeth in another WC competition.   
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
22 Feb 2016, 12:28
#11
22 Feb 2016, 12:28#11
@Mike. This is meant to be about Amla as a T20 player. 
You are sometimes  so removed from reality it is not even funny. You have been on Amla's case for ages for whatever reasons. A few years ago, you argued that he should be returned to no 3 in the batting line-up which, according to you, was his  regular batting position. That fallacy was kicked into  outer space when you were show just how few times  he  actually EVER went in at no 3 in  ODIs. Now  you are rubbishing him  again by saying that he was a disaster in India. Fact is that the entire squad was more or less a  nightmare in India recently.
Had you actually faced the facts, you would probably have been on a different bandwagon as far as Amla goes. Bear in mind that any player goes through a slump from time to time. 
"Amla was a nightmare on Indian pitches and failed there badly during the past year."

"In T20's one has to look at the performances of players in India.........."

"........we will have to play Amla somewhere in the batting line-up - where he is bound to flop in India.   So lets hope they find a place for him -he is a square peg in a round hole in India......"

Those are your opinions.
These are the facts:
  1. Amla has only ever played two international T20s  in India. That is two out of 32 T20 matches. His figures for those two matches were:
  2. 2/10/2015 - 36 off 24 balls. Strike rate of 150

    5/10/2015 - 2 off 3 balls. Strike rate 66.67

    Amla as a batsman (note: not a batter) in India?.............. The jury is still out, at worst

  3. Amla's career stats in ODIs are not as grim as you would like to believe. He has a T20 batting average of 27.27 which is not that off the mark for a batsman in the hit and giggle format of the game. Especially as you are quite certain that he will  get you some runs. Why would I say that? Simple. In 32 games he has only been out for a duck once. That was back in 2012 against India in Centurion.
  4. And now for the yorker........ How many times in his T20 career has Amla not opened the batting? Not once. He has played 32 T20 matches and he has opened  in 32 matches. Playing him anywhere but at no 1 or 2 would be trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. 

Just like when you failed to convince me that Amla is not an ODI opening batsman, you have failed to convince me that Amla is not a T20 opening batsman, even in India. 











CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Feb 2016, 13:05
#12
22 Feb 2016, 13:05#12
 Ceradyne
The fool is very much in evidence.  The issue is T20 games in India.   He has played only in 2 T20 games - but what about his failures in ODI's and even in tests in India. 
Indian pitches does not fit his game and his playing style - end of story.   
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
22 Feb 2016, 13:09
#13
22 Feb 2016, 13:09#13
 Oh he hates Amla with a passion, same way he hated Fourie Du Preez and Graeme Smith as well. Like a little dog with a bone between his teeth.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Feb 2016, 13:24
#14
22 Feb 2016, 13:24#14
 Denny
I don't hate anybody - I look at facts and performance as the reason to deal with sporting issues.  Hatred I l eave to fools who believe in daydreams.

DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
22 Feb 2016, 13:32
#15
22 Feb 2016, 13:32#15
 Yeah right!
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
22 Feb 2016, 14:36
#16
22 Feb 2016, 14:36#16
 "Ceradyne
The fool is very much in evidence.  The issue is T20 games in India.   He has played only in 2 T20 games - but what about his failures in ODI's and even in tests in India. 
Indian pitches does not fit his game and his playing style - end of story"
End of story. Jou moer man. Read my opening sentence. Let me repeat it for you.
"@Mike. This is meant to be about Amla as a T20 player. "
You do not know your arse from your elbow. You keep on p1ssing about Amla and  you do not have a leg to stand on. You do not want him in the T20 squad/team for the T20 WC. A player who has 32 international T20 matches to his credit. You say that he is not a T20 opening batsman, yet he has opened the batting in all of his T20 internationals. 
FFS. Look at "your team":
1  De Kock - No problem. His best T20 batting position, without a doubt. His stats by batting position HERE2  Du Plessis - Not a T20 opener by any means. never in your life. See his batting stats by position HERE. He has opened once out of 28 matches and got a 1. He came  in at three 25 times and has an average of 41.58 at three. 3  De Villiers - Opened in 7 out of 65 T20 matches and has an average of 32.29 when opening. His next best average is 27.81 at no 4. Important, though, is that he played 27 out of 65 matches at four. See his stats by position HERE. The above, IMO, moves Faf down to three and AB to four. Amla, therefore, to join QDK4  Miller - His position, I'm afraid is not at four. He should move to 6. See his stats HERE. His stats suggests that he should rather bat at no 5 but he is equally comfortable at 6. There is hardly any difference in his averages at 5 and 6. He has an average of 27.13 at five and 26.8 at six. The lower average at 6 is offset by the fact that he has played more matches at six that at five.5  Rossouw - I am not comfortable with Rossouw at all, at this stage. Particularly in the T20 WC. He has not established himself in any position at all. Going by his stats HERE he is, at this stage somewhere between three and four, and those spots are filled. In addition, he has not played more than five T20 matches in any batting position. He opened once, played at three 3 times, at four 4 times, at five once and twice at six. With Amla and QDK opening, Faf at three, AB at four, Duminy at five and Miller at six, then I'm afraid, I do not see a spot for him at this stage.6  Duminy - Now here is your conundrum. His best T20 batting position is also at four and his batting average at no four is better than that of AB. See HERE. The solution, IMO, is that he could move up to five, which is also a good position for him. He has had 27 out of 59 games at four, for an average of 46.63 but he has played at no 5 in 18 out of 59 matches for an average of 38.09
I can go down the rest of your "team sheet" as well if you really want to, but since this is more about the batting line-up, I am not going to dig further into the batting stats for the rest of your team. 
7  Wiese8  Morris9  Steyn10 Rabada11 Tahir



CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Feb 2016, 15:31
#17
22 Feb 2016, 15:31#17
 Ceradunce
Dofdoos - you do not realize anything about cricket in the sub-continent.  Concentrate what Players achieved in the sub-continent and not their overall stats.   Your comments are all about career stats and no evidence on what happened in India and the rest of the sub-continent.  You may not know - but the T20 WC is held this year in India - so how dim are you?
Nobody is interested in your drivel about what yo u think of individual players.  For instance in IPL Du Plessis was the regular opener for his team - while De Villiers never opened ever.  REMEMBER THE WORD INDIA IN ALL YOUR ARGUMENTS - or are you too dim to realize that the T20 WC this year is in India?  
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
22 Feb 2016, 16:24
#18
22 Feb 2016, 16:24#18
 I have a mountain of respect for Vlag's knowledge of the game....thank you kindly.
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
22 Feb 2016, 16:31
#19
22 Feb 2016, 16:31#19
I must say here, I agree with a lot of what Mike has said. Cricket on the sub-continent is very different to anywhere else. Some player just do not do well in those conditions. There is a reason India has such a fantastic record at home. Even the totally dominant Aussies of the Waugh era battled in India. 
Just on the team for the T20 WC. For me, drop Duminy, bring in De Kock at 3 (Amla and De Villiers) to open....if it becomes apparent that Amla is not coping with the Indian conditions, drop him and open with De Kock...and bring back Duminy!   
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
22 Feb 2016, 16:40
#20
22 Feb 2016, 16:40#20
 Name one Protea player that did well on the Indian tour in the test series? There were none.....so why is Amla being singled out?.....which is Cera's point. And in the bigger picture there aren't many players who do well over there. Don't forget that after the Proteas won the ODI series it was imperative that India won a series to appease their fanatical home crowds hence the reason they doctored the pitches to suit their spinners. In hindsight I daresay no team would have beaten them on those pitches.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 Feb 2016, 17:02
#21
22 Feb 2016, 17:02#21
 So we ignore the fact that Amla just ripped the Poms apart, that Wiese has hardly scored a run and was carted all over the place yesterday, that Rossouw and Miller are about as dependable as a Zuma utterance.....these are the players we place our faith in, in part because we are playing in India.
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
22 Feb 2016, 17:18
#22
22 Feb 2016, 17:18#22
 There's an awful silence to what I believe to be a simple question....
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Feb 2016, 18:02
#23
22 Feb 2016, 18:02#23
 Mozart
With respect I do not think it is simple answer - but I have stated that the issue should be dealt with with due regard to the tournament being in INDIA.  That the issue of who should play in the Protea team must be determined not on one match - but with regard to the performance of players in India over a period of years.   Some players cannot perform in India and unfortunately Amla is one of those.   
 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 Feb 2016, 19:29
#24
22 Feb 2016, 19:29#24
Mike I accept for you Amla is on the same list as F du Preez, Matfield and Kallis. Not much point in trying to change your mind if his brilliant half century, scarcely off ABs old record, didn't convince you. But how do you figure Wiese is a world beater?
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
22 Feb 2016, 19:45
#25
22 Feb 2016, 19:45#25
 Mike, Amla is a must in the top order of all 3 formats. As is AB and QDK....Steyn when fit. IMO Morkel too, with Rabada staking a claim too. I like what I've seen from Morris as well. We've got the makings of a good team...across all formats. ..our problem is the selectors, admin and coaching.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Feb 2016, 19:51
#26
22 Feb 2016, 19:51#26
 I don't think Wiese is a world beater - but we need a fifth bowler and we have none better.   I would not mind Amla - but he is a serious liability in India.   That is why the Indian squads will not contract him for IPL.     
Lets not start with Matfield again - he was and is at present for his club a serious liability.   That is less than four months after the WC - where he also was not up to standard.    
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 Feb 2016, 20:09
#27
22 Feb 2016, 20:09#27
 If Wiese isn't going to score runs and he bats down the order, why play him when his balls are series of custard pies. Even if you play Morkel rather than Wiese the chances we are going to be bowled out are slim....so playing him the bet is he can accelerate the run rate sufficiently to offset his bowling deficiency relative to a Morkel. Not likely.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
22 Feb 2016, 21:34
#28
22 Feb 2016, 21:34#28
 India won a series to appease their fanatical home crowds hence the reason they doctored the pitches to suit their spinners.Heck even dense denise appreciates this obvious fact. AND as has been mentioned it was generally bad all round.Ou maaaaikie Amla is class act. Get real you let your over heated imagination run away with you.Duminy seems to lack bottle?

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
22 Feb 2016, 22:59
#29
22 Feb 2016, 22:59#29
 @Dowwemaaik.
Why don't you give us the stats of "your team" on the subcontinent for a change. I mean, I have made my point and provided the stats to support my argument. It is only fair that you give us the stats to support your argument, don't you think? Come  on ou P1sbal. Show us some stats for a change. Just so we know can see that you know where to get them and how they work. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Feb 2016, 23:50
#30
22 Feb 2016, 23:50#30
 Not necessary - the Proteas won the ODI series and the T20 series as far as I can remember.  De Kock made another century in the process and that helped a lot,
He did not play in any of the tests.   
The issue Doffies is that the ODI and T20 players who did well are all on IPL contracts - those who did not did not get contracts.  Reason they played very well in the shortened version of the games in India.Those players - surprise surprise - include AB, De Kock, Du Plessis, Miller, Duminy, Wiese, Morris and Steyn.  
Among those who did not get contracts is Amla.
When they play in IPL most of them earn more in 8 weeks than you dim one will earn in three years.         
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
23 Feb 2016, 04:10
#31
23 Feb 2016, 04:10#31
Mine.... 

QDK

ABAmlaFafRoussouwMillerMorrisSteyn(Morkel)RabadaAbbott Morkel Tahir
Morkel isn't part of the squad Moz but I think he's first reserve if Steyn doesn't recover
The above would be my line up, with Duminy coming in if we needed another bowling option.
Pretty much the same as Daddy's with a slight movement in the furniture.
— END OF THREAD —

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