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FORUM / RUGBY /  Real Greats in Rugby Starts being Great when they are young

Real Greats in Rugby Starts being Great when they are young

Started by clevermike64 REPLIES1,239 VIEWS· 19 Apr 2020, 16:42
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Apr 2020, 16:42
#1
19 Apr 2020, 16:42#1

DSTV re-broadcast of the SA games in the 2012 Under 20 WC.   The Junior Springboks were not really tops in the Round Robin games and one of the failures were Tony Jantjies - the younger brother of Elton.  He was replaced by Handre Pollard then a 17 year old pupil still at school.


The result of the Pool was not settled and SA had to have a bonus point win against England.   The first half the Juniors scored no tries and in the second half they scored 4 - one by the best player in the squad in 2012 Pieter=Steph du Toit,  He was a star in the squad and also had a major hand in the scoring of another try.


Other players in that squad in 2012 were Frans Malherbe and Steven Kitshoff.   The fact is that some of the players in 2012 went on to be great winners of the 2019 WC,   Pollard and Du Toit were greats in 2012 and Kitshoff and Malherbe mauled the opposition into submission and did the same in the WC in 2019.


The top of the Greats from 2012 was Du Toit and will always be the Greatest player of his generation and it is no surprise that he was the World Player of the Year in 2019,       


          


           

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
19 Apr 2020, 17:24
#2
19 Apr 2020, 17:24#2

Du Toit the greatest player of his generation? Better than Faf, Pollard? Am? Andre? Mapimpi? Nkose? Eben? There are so many. Pollard was one of the few who hit the ground running. Eben was the other. Steph isn't even a great Bok. He is the forward equivalent of Damian. Malherbe took several years to really show some worth. He faltered a fair while last season before finding form. Was worryingly anonymoud against New Zealand. 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Apr 2020, 19:32
#3
19 Apr 2020, 19:32#3

Sure - he was slightly ahead of Pollard - by miles better than any of the other players you write about..   He is likely to be regarded as the Greatest Player ever from SA  by experts.   The normal drivel - yet he scored the only Springbok try against the AB's in the WC.   

I love your BS - it is a realistic reflection of the ramblings of lunatics.  Let me explain - I worked in the Forest Research Division of the Department of Forestry in 1964,   There was a railway halt  between the Westkoppies mental asylum/hospital and the Research facility and the harmless lunatics would walk through our offices and ask for directions to all type of places in SA,   Our normal practice was to direct them back to the asylum.   Somebody must have missed out in your case and direct you to go where you ended up in the sane community,    Huge mistake.               

s   

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
20 Apr 2020, 01:06
#4
20 Apr 2020, 01:06#4

There isn't a solitary aspect of Steph's game that is elite. Can't move, is a weak defender, passes like an average lock, isn't particularly expolisive, can struggle to read play, is passive. Your little unrequited romance must come to an end. 

SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
20 Apr 2020, 01:30
#5
20 Apr 2020, 01:30#5
Well, Serfontein was the star of the 2012 class... 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Apr 2020, 06:17
#6
20 Apr 2020, 06:17#6

Shezza

Jan Serfontein  was not in the WC squad this year and has not played for the Springboks since 2017.   I am not discrediting him at all,    

AO the total Idiot

Look at the pass leading to the Kolbe try in the WC final dofdoos and then repeat your idiocy here,   


AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
20 Apr 2020, 07:22
#7
20 Apr 2020, 07:22#7
A very, very rudimentary short ball, and he is the greatest of his generation? Also, correction: It didn't lead to the try, it preceded the try. All of the work in that movement was done by 1.Marx for dislodging the ball in the disruptive tackle; 2.Am for securing the loose ball; 3.Kolbe for making something out of absolutely nothing. Once more ascribing a level of significance/effort/skills that simply wasn't there. Yet, Esterhuizen's slick close quarter passing to regularly free runners - which is absent in all of Damian's tests - is overrated "idiot speaker myth". You area disgrace. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Apr 2020, 08:17
#8
20 Apr 2020, 08:17#8

Would the idiots you support have made that pass that put Kolbe into space?  Never!!  Show me one decent pass putting players into space made by Esterhuizen when he played on test level please.    

This is just another  case of unlimited rugby stupidity on your part after Du Toit was only one of three SA players to be selected by experts to be honoured thus when he was declared by World Rugby as the Player of the Year for performances in 2019.   That must have given you near to a seizure.  

Du Toit and Rob Louw were proven to be the best two ball skills and ball sense loosies we ever had in SA,  Labuschagne was another - but we lost him because of the normal level of Meyer idiocy - the same level you have achieved hence your total support of him.      

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
20 Apr 2020, 08:26
#9
20 Apr 2020, 08:26#9

Esterhuizen makes those kinds of passes with great regularity. In fact, he is highly adept at soaking up defenders and passing with accuracy in very tight windows. Again, I have his entire 2018 season up on YouTube, as well as Super rugby games that demonstrate this. 

You point to awards, which are seldom more than popularity contests. I didn't ask you for awards or opinions, I asked you for references for that production that supposedly makes him so indispensable. You are never able to do this. And what little references you make are too often out of sync with video scrutiny. You merely make up a story to fit your preconceived ideas. Nothing more. 


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Apr 2020, 10:23
#10
20 Apr 2020, 10:23#10

Test level please Idiot Speaker.  By the way even on Super Rugby level there is not even one pass Esterhuizen made on that video clip.  O I forget - Esterhuizen was tried  out by White as a no 7 flank, but he failed -  is that the reason you brought him up when we were discussing Du Toit playing as a loosie? .

Normal drivel about awards - the difference is the World Rugby awards are made by an international expert committee dealing with actual performances,  

I am tired of wasting my time with Deadheads like you

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
20 Apr 2020, 11:32
#11
20 Apr 2020, 11:32#11

It's only a waste of time because you refuse to learn. You don't have very good learning skills. 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Apr 2020, 13:12
#12
20 Apr 2020, 13:12#12

This must be a joke.  I do learn from real experts in rugby - not from prejudiced fools like you whose knowledge of the game is peripheral and near to worthless,  LMAO

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
21 Apr 2020, 11:31
#13
21 Apr 2020, 11:31#13

Does anybody remember where the animosity between Moz and ou Maaikie, over PSDT, started?

It was back in those days when PSDT surfaced. Ou Maaikie, who was already suffering from acute MDS (Matfield Derangement Syndrome) decided there and then that PSDT was going to be the next big no 5 lock and that he and Etzebeth was going to be the next Matfield/Etzebeth combo. Ou Maaikie was of the opinion that PSDT was, even at that stage, more or less better than Matfield ever was. Of course Moz was never gonna let that slide. And that was when the kak started. 

Strangely, exactly the same thing happened with QDK and Graeme Smith in cricket. 

What I find strange, on this thread, is the assertion that Pollard replaced Tony Jantjies in that RWC. Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t it an (another?) injury to Johan Goosen, that opened the door for Pollard at the time. 

SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
21 Apr 2020, 14:01
#14
21 Apr 2020, 14:01#14
Matfield was retired when PSDT emerged, it was Matfield's return that really triggered the animosity. 
And regarding Pollard, I think the Goosen injury got him picked for the squad but it was Jantjies poor performance in the loss to the Irish juniors that got him starting for the Baby Boks. 
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
21 Apr 2020, 15:32
#15
21 Apr 2020, 15:32#15

Thanks Shezza. Couldn’t remember how exactly Pollard got the nod in the end. 

On PSDT though. It is was ou Maaikie’s assertion that he was going to become a greater lock than Matfield ever was which kickstarted that war. As it turned out PSDT ended up as a loose forward which, coincidentally, was the position he played in the U/20 RWC as well, IIRC. If he was ever destined to emulate Matfield as a lock, then he had better hurry up. Time is running out for that. 

Bear in mind that at the time of those wars between our two friends, PSDT was injured more often than he went to the toilet. 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 Apr 2020, 16:13
#16
21 Apr 2020, 16:13#16

Well I guess if you are  lang draad (apologies to Draad) who can’t take your own lineouts.... blindside flank is the obvious cop out position.

Then if you can’t really play the position, beat tackles, offload, make open field tackles and fetch.....a rover role on the left wing  can be devised. A few runs in space, a few rushes at a pikkie  like Ford and a huge dollop of hype....and  voila you become World Player of the Year!

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Apr 2020, 16:14
#17
21 Apr 2020, 16:14#17

I was always a supporter of Matfield at lock until 2011 - even though his stand-in  center play ruined backline play and irritated the hell out of me.  I opposed his return from retirement in 2014 and was correct - it did so much damage to his reputation as a player that it remained a bad memory for a lot of his previous admirers,          

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Apr 2020, 16:46
#18
21 Apr 2020, 16:46#18

World Player of the Year selected by 8 international exoerts is good enough for me - but not for the prejudiced BSters on site whose rugby knowledge consists of how they can invent deficiencies of players they a re prejudiced against.          


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 Apr 2020, 17:07
#19
21 Apr 2020, 17:07#19

The award had to go to a Bok and Dud Toit  was the least controversial pick.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Apr 2020, 17:34
#20
21 Apr 2020, 17:34#20

Why?  There is no rule that says the Award must go to a winner of the WC team player,  It did no t go to one in 2011 and the award was always won by merit  players in other years,  Pity that a player like Matfield never got the award - but then there are experts that did not rate him as a quality player,  The other two award winners from SA were  Brian Habana and Schalk Bugger and nobody put up a BS show like you did in the case of Du Toit,   

SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
21 Apr 2020, 18:14
#21
21 Apr 2020, 18:14#21
For as busy a player as PSDT is, it's a wonder how you miss all that he does Moz
AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
21 Apr 2020, 18:54
#22
21 Apr 2020, 18:54#22

I didn't miss it. It amazes me how the Church of Steph misses all those errors. Even when I put it in video format they still don't learn. Such an average player. Actually, I stand corrected, his defence is below average and his carries are below average. 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 Apr 2020, 18:56
#23
21 Apr 2020, 18:56#23

I have always preferred skilled players to energy players....on the theory that in big games everybody gets their energy up. And the only unusual  ‘skill’ I can see in Dud Toit is the pick and go which he executes well.


I’m stunned armchair selectors would choose him ahead of Juan Smith. But everybody is entitled to their own opinions 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Apr 2020, 19:30
#24
21 Apr 2020, 19:30#24

Then you missed out on even identifying skills of players or preferred not to see who are skillful or who are not.   Du Toit has one of the best skill sets I have seen amongst SA forwards ever and I put him on par with Rob Louw in that regard.  Schalk Burger as a young player also had the same skill set - but as he got older he lost it.   Most  SA forwards were rather clumsy, slow and with bitter fingers.    Juan Smith indeed had butter-fingers and not very good passing skills.   'The only other loosie in the last decade with skills was Labuschagne - bu t you missed out on him as well,   Perhaps the reason was that you always saw loosies as an extension of the Tight 5 with little playing ability,   .    .     

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 Apr 2020, 20:11
#25
21 Apr 2020, 20:11#25

Dud.....passing  skills? Aikona!

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Apr 2020, 21:25
#26
21 Apr 2020, 21:25#26

Look at the Kolbe try in the WC final and you may get some idea of reality for a change.  Draw in defender and an excellent precision pass,   

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
22 Apr 2020, 00:41
#27
22 Apr 2020, 00:41#27

Funny, Steph is the greatest player of his generation for an unpressured rudimentary short ball, yet Frans soaking up the physical contact on three defenders and getting a slick offload away to create the space for a try was nothing and/or didn't happen (the story changes depending on time of day it seems). If you think that pass really demonstrates advanced skill, then your standards are not just very low, but infinitely inferior to my own. Steph lacks skills, that's why he has such poor distribution figures as a carrier. He certainly is no 2015 Schalk, who was a better defender and was able to link up. A quality player that generates momentum and opportunities for the rest of the team, not stodgy and slow, predictable phase play. Steph doesn't rank in the top 20 Bok loose forwards. A myth that he has never been able to live up to. Like so many of the modern age of Bok rugby. 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Apr 2020, 04:45
#28
22 Apr 2020, 04:45#28

The fact is that you are as stupid and as easily caught out as Mozart, because you are prejudiced with no idea about rugby, other than a doomed level of prejudice,  Schalk as a younger player was about as brilliant as Du Toit was, but later on he became a rather questionable loosie as was clearly illustrated in the Japan disaster in 2015.  Maybe it was an absence of 2 years from rugby from 2012 that he became a problem - after that absence he never was the player he used to be,   But then he was already 29 when the absence started in 2012 and 31 when he returned to play rugby in 2014.   That was why he could not make the grade anymore,   Of equal importance was that he ended up playing under one of the worst coaches in the history of Springbok rugby.    

Your evaluating of rugby performance is the weirdest I have ever come across with,   You rate questionable players as top class and topo class players as under-performers.  The sane with coaches,  Whether it is idiocy or stemmed from prejudice is not always clear,   The fact that you do rate players can be blown out of the water with ease,   You make wild claims and experts will see it as ridiculous idiocy,   I repeated some of your claims in discussion with experts and they just laughed,   Nobody could take it as serious rugby discussion, because it was so utterly ridiculous,  

The difference is that the players you promote turned sour after some brilliant starts.  Frans Steyn was one if those.  I rarely saw a player like he was when he came out as a full  back at 19 years of age.   He was not a center then and used only at full back,   His pace deficiency early on was not a problem.  Maybe it was his  movement to center that cause the problem in the first instance, but his departure to France in 2009 was a real disaster for him from a performance perspective.     

As many others I raved when he returned to SA in 2012,   It took me just five test matches to come to the conclusion that he was not a test player at all anymore.  He was grossly overweight and his pace was gone.  He still attained some physicality and could carry balls strongly for a few meters  - but on the whole his playing skills were gone and never returned.   He was a continuous disaster for the Sharks for three years running whether he was used at center or flyhalf and his test career effectively gone.   His return to Springbok rugby on 2019 was just as a kind of back up player never used other than from the bench in the key matches

Reputation players can easily lose out when it comes to a player evaluation later in their careers.  They often destroy their image in such cases by under-performing and that was typical in the case of Steyn,   A typical example was that Super Rugby game in 2015 when De Allende wiped the floor with him.  But when that was raised you discovered line breaks that never took place. 

To conclude - your so-called evaluation  of players is the weirdest ever in the history of rugby - so people should really ignore it as a farce.  LMAO  Just for the record that like Mozart you described that 7 to 8 meter pass by Du Toit to Kolbe as a short ball pass is totally ridiculous amd show to what level of idiocy you can descend.                  .               .    

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
22 Apr 2020, 05:51
#29
22 Apr 2020, 05:51#29

Schalk, Du Preez and Thor were the most important players at the 2015 WC and Schalk's 2015 season was vastly superior to that of Steph's. Steph has never ever be in the same class as our best loose forwards. Not a single aspect of his game is elite. He is a total myth. Watch games properly and you'll most commonly see him falling on top of players and darting out of the line for a misread. It really is that simple. 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Apr 2020, 06:32
#30
22 Apr 2020, 06:32#30

That was exactly why the 2015 WC was a very real disaster for SA and your lunatic comments about the 2019 WC is such a joke,   Keep it up you are always a funny idiot,  LMAO

Eight experienced experts in World Rugby considered the real performance of players and came up with PIETER-STEPH DU TOIT - your imagined deficiencies were real he would not have made it,  That makes you even more ridiculous than you already have been for years, LMAO.  By the way I never said Vermeulen was not a top class player,   Schalk was used in 2015 for playing a type of rugby he was never suited for and that caused massive damage to his reputation as a player,

        

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
22 Apr 2020, 07:06
#31
22 Apr 2020, 07:06#31

Steph was chosen because he is the media's most popular player. Nothing more. That's how it always is. I have covered enough of him and no Steph groupie has ever produced an adequate case to justify their position. Ever. Nothing survives the film review. Zero. 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Apr 2020, 08:43
#32
22 Apr 2020, 08:43#32

Balls as per normal,  The famous AO Videos must be BS as well.  We hear about his famous video's but never once has be produced anything to proof his BS statements,    That Du Toit pass to Kolbe is just proof that the video is just in his imagination.  

The following is a real clip totally contradicting the KAK you write on site:-

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=pieter+steph+du+toit+getroud&docid=608039718041421762&mid=8EDBC3742DE0AFD01B7C8EDBC3742DE0AFD01B7C&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
22 Apr 2020, 09:14
#33
22 Apr 2020, 09:14#33

The video is exactly as described. My description: 

A very, very rudimentary short ball, and he is the greatest of his generation? Also, correction: It didn't lead to the try, it preceded the try. All of the work in that movement was done by 1.Marx for dislodging the ball in the disruptive tackle; 2.Am for securing the loose ball; 3.Kolbe for making something out of absolutely nothing. 


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Apr 2020, 09:14
#34
22 Apr 2020, 09:14#34

Watch this clip as well and see how many times Du Toit is involved in scoring of tries, Dimwit 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqQYuOPN-48
  

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
22 Apr 2020, 09:16
#35
22 Apr 2020, 09:16#35

There's nothing for me to learn from that video, as it's clips from games I have reviewed in greater depth than that video. 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Apr 2020, 09:34
#36
22 Apr 2020, 09:34#36

That is exactly why you are always total BS and you remain the most ignorant biased fool on site  Happy I diots Day to you fool,  

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
22 Apr 2020, 09:40
#37
22 Apr 2020, 09:40#37

You get angry, because you cannot refute a solitary point I have made on any given topic. 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Apr 2020, 09:48
#38
22 Apr 2020, 09:48#38

What point have you made on an y topic that is not based on BS, distortions and outright lies?  

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
22 Apr 2020, 09:51
#39
22 Apr 2020, 09:51#39

Zero. Thanks for seeking clarification. If you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact me at +27 21 447 9040 (closing time is 16:30). 

Regards

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 Apr 2020, 16:55
#40
22 Apr 2020, 16:55#40

Dud’s pass to Kolbe was a standard pass we should expect of any good school boy player. Not a skipped pass, not an offload, not a pass in contact, not a long pass, not a pass under intercept risk, not a lobbed pass .....a bog ordinary pass.

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