Refereeing in New Zealand

I rlarely comment about refereeing because I always feel that referees are nearer to the game and can see what happens better than we as couch critics.   However, we have the benefit of repeats on TV and have an advantage over the referees on the field of play - and maybe are also influenced by the commentators.

Over the last two days I have become a bit cynical though and wonder about the issue again and cannot but help to think that the outcome of game can be influncd by refereeing decisions.   In the game between the Blues and the Stormers the Stormers scored two tries - yet they lost against the Blues who kickd 6 penalties.  The same can be said about the Sharks who scored three tries against the two of the Highlanders.

Noe lets look at the penalties - some were obviously fully justified - others were highly questionable.   Throughout the game the Blues scrums were under pressure and they did not do well in that Department.    However, within kicking range the scrum went up - the first head that popped out was the one of the Blues hooker - the Stormers were penalized for the problem.   Both sides did the same thing - yet the Stormers got penalized.  

There were also anothr case happening right in front of the assistant referee - it was obvious that the last player who touched the ball was a Blues player before th ball went out of play - yet he ruled the throw-in in favour of the Blues.   That led to a series of plays that ultimately result in another converted penalty.   

In the case of the Sharks game - the Sharks were on the attack in the last minutes of the game and three points behind the Blues.     They broke the rules repeatedly and in the second case one player was yellow-carded.   Then followed two further penalties against the Blues.   No further yelow cards.   When the ball went out to the backline - the Highlanders was blatantly off-side - yet no penalty for that and the move ended there.

The issue was similar to the one the week before - when Frank did the same thing repeatedly - yet no yellow card for him.    It is not only the SA teams that got the rough edge of the decisions.   In the Chiefs - Rebels game Rertallick hit out openly at a Rebels player - yet he got off with a penalty against him.   Using fists in a rugby game is a red card offence - yet no red card - not even a yellow card.

One wonders why it seems like local referees deal with the local teams with kid gloves - yet they seem not to go easy on visiting teams and the penalties flow so easily.   Basically it could be the result of -

 *   incompetence (very likely); or

 *   pandering up to the local spectators - ie being influeenced by the locality issue.

However, it does raise soe question marks - in some cases the question arises - are the referees in fact trying to influence the outcomes of games by their decisions?   I think in some cases the answer is unfortunately yes - especially if the referees made such akward mistakes that they are put on teh carpet afterwards.   The question also arises - why is this such an important factor in New Zealand and not elsewhere?

Comments - please - but nothing on Bryce Lawrence is required. 

Not so Clever mike i think you'll find Walsh was given away to Australia and it's up to them to account for his usage ,

But from what i saw he all but gave the game to the Sharks at the end. Why can't you comment about the Kiwis defence though?

You can't because it was good so you attack the refs . How predictable.

 And it was'nt your teams that lost by any chance ?,  Not very objectiive then either.

With the double knockout of SA teams in NZ... Ouch that must really hurt not so clevermike.... but sometimes you have to put your hand up and just say - my team played like shit...

maybe we were a little too arrogant thinking we could just walk all over the Kiwis....What you have just experienced not so clever mike... is a reality check...

That said- there is no such thing as immaculate perception and figure in the human factor, regional interpretations , the cross wind and the weight of the gumboots and you'll realise it's not an exact science.

 In NZ we say the same thing about yarpy refs but probably with more justification given your dodgy refs of the past  40 years that have in fact justified their cheating saying  "because we have to live in South Africa. '

So when you talk about Kiwi refs it's really funny for some reason.

 Mike and Brycy. You are both right and wrong some. It is extremely difficult not to be bias,  especially if you got some interest in a game of rugga. I actually am more worried   when Peyper or Joubert blows in a Stormers game, than I am when a NZder. All refs try not to be bias, some just succeed better than others. Even the tv refs get it wrong sometimes. 

It will never change,  it's part of the game, as is complaining about  the ref. Everybody does it.

@mikey,
i dont agree, i think wiht both of SA strongest teams struggling, their fans are looking for that one quick stop of an excuse which never seems to get old here. frustration is IMO the main cause of the many many many many many many comments about the ref here.
but at the ned of the day each to their own.

but i will address some of ur comments,,,
"In the game between the Blues and the Stormers the Stormers scored two tries - yet they lost against the Blues who kickd 6 penalties.  The same can be said about the Sharks who scored three tries against the two of the Highlanders."
as a saffa surprised at this comment from u. have u never heard of games where one team outscores another team in tries but still loses???
one of the more famous ones would have to be the Boks 2007 RWC final, but i dont need to go back that far, just look at these examples from 2013 spXV alone,,,

rnd2
cheetahs lost to the sharks but scored 3 tries to 2
stormers lost to the bulls but scored 2 tries to 1

rnd3
crusaders lost to the hurrcianes, but scored 4 tries to 2
chiefs lost to the stormers but scored 4 tries to 3

rnd7
bulls lost to the brumbies but scored 2 tries to 1

rnd8
kings had a draw with brumbies, but scored 4 tries to 2
crusaders lost to the sharks, but scored 1 try to none

rnd10
red had a draw with the brumbies, but scored 3 tries to one

rnd11
blues lost to the reds but scored 1 try to none
waratahs lost to the bulls but scored 3 tries to 2

as u can see, scoring tries isnt the be all end of all of a game, and saffa teams have been on the right end of that ledger more times then NZ or OZ.

"Throughout the game the Blues scrums were under pressure and they did not do well in that Department.    However, within kicking range the scrum went up - the first head that popped out was the one of the Blues hooker - the Stormers were penalized for the problem.   Both sides did the same thing - yet the Stormers got penalized."
im not sure which scrum ur talking about, but im assuming its the scrum in the 69th min of the game and i suggest u rewatch the game, cos i have that scrum running a on a loop on my laptop as i write this and this is how it went down.
stormers balland the scrums engage.
deon fouries head pops up first,
then kitshoffs,
then mcdonalds,
then the ref blows the whitsle.
blues kicked a penalty for that one, so if u watch the replay, im sure u will see it happen the way and i would encourage anyone else to take a look at this and tell me other wise. it happenend on exactly on the 69min mark.

on another note, the scrum awarded to the blues on 79:36, blues feed and ntubenis head pops up and then kishoffs, but jackson awards a knock on to the stormers.
if anyhting, glen jackson was favouring the stormers with some incorrect scrum calls.

"In the case of the Sharks game - the Sharks were on the attack in the last minutes of the game and three points behind the Blues.     They broke the rules repeatedly and in the second case one player was yellow-carded.   Then followed two further penalties against the Blues.   No further yelow cards.   When the ball went out to the backline - the Highlanders was blatantly off-side - yet no penalty for that and the move ended there."
ur frustration seems to leave u unable to tell the blues and highlanders apart, LMAO, :oP
but i get ur drift and see ur point.

the way i see it is there was only one incident that jackson missed, the one where treeby was offisde and coming through the side and ended up pilfering the ball.
every infringement the highlanders made was penalised by jackson even the yellow to brad thorn.

should there have been a sceond yellow card??? i wouldnt have had a problem if there was a second yellow as i mentioned in my intial post minutes after the game was finished.
but let me ask u one simple question, how many double yellow cards have u seen in the last 5 years at super rugby or international level??? not a heck of a lot aye?
IMO referees from any nationality feel a ton of pressure at awarding a 2nd yellow cos of the massive advantage it would create. does this mean that referees should be encourgaed to do so??? absoloutely, but thats a topic for another day and dosent play a role in ur main arguments.
the lack of a second yellow was just one of those things, but every infraction was caught by the ref bar the one from treeby.

as for the chiefs game, the game was in melbourne and wasnt a NZ local game.

 a referree should never be from the home country or the opposition country in an international test or SuperXV game. 

This would remove the "possibale" influence by the local crowd, national psyche, national corruption or any factor under the sun.  

All SA vs NewZealand SuperXV games should have an Australia referree. 

I am not saying that interpretations were wrong over the weekend, but having a referree from another country means the only factor incompetence.

I would rather live with incompetence because at least it is more often than not impartial. 

I agree with you on theissue of refereeing - but would like to add to the problems of refereeing by a tendency of teams to give away penalties when they are in real danger of giving away tries.   I would say the first offence should be a warning - the second offence a yellow card and the third offence a penalty try.   If after that in another play the same thing happened again - the process should be a team warning - followed by a penalty try and a red card.  

That would stop all the shennanigans at present done by teams whose line is under threat.   I think for instance the case of Frank in the Hurricanes - Stormers game where the Hurricanes commited the same offence four times in a row.  The Highlanders did the same of Saturday.  That type of thing should help to make rugby a better game without professional fouls being the order of the day.

Before cards are issued as suggested the referee should consult with the TV umpire and if necessary with the Assistant Referees so as to identity of the offenders - so as to be absolutely sure the correct player is determind to get send off.

All things are guilty of the same conduct and the process as outlined should be followed strictly - without leaving it to the discretion of the referee.

Sasuke, helpf me understand your sentence above about being outscored in tries but still losing?? You said one of the more famous ones was the 2007 WC final that the Boks won. You do realise the final score was 15-6 to the Boks in a tryless game.

Mark Cueto came close but unlucky for him, the sideline is a straight line and is not bent to accommodate his foot. Here is the press release caption after the game:

England wing Mark Cueto was controversially denied a try in the 42nd minute after he was ruled to have put a foot in touch during a tackle by Danie Rossouw before grounding the ball. Later independent analysis corroborated this decision.

As you see, the decision was corroberated. It was a fair call. England can cry all they want but video footage does not lie. Even if he did not go out and scored a try, it was a tough outline conversion but lets give it to them. That makes the final score 15-10 to Boks. It would not be 15-13 because England were awarded a penalty once that try was not awarded. The way England cry it was like they were 4 points behind in the last minute. Ha ha the video shows the man out, the rest of the world can see it but the poms still cry foul!

@boklogic,
touche, o_O
i stand corrected, for some reason i remembered jason robinsons try against the wallabies in 03 and thought it was against the Boks.
good call and nice to see u keep me on my toes.
as for that cueto try, i completely agree, i thought it was out when i frist saw the replay and i still think it was out today, nothing wrong with that call at all.
as for those moaning english fans, again i agree, nothing worse then fans who do nothing but moan about decisions that dont go their way, LMAO, :oP

@mikey,

in the case of ben franks its the same thing, the hurricanes already had a man in the bin and as i pointed out, referees all around the world are very reluctant to dish out two yellow cards.

i dont think theres anything wrong with the way things are now, i just think the refs need to not worry so much about a team with two yellow cards. IMO multiple yellows will quickly force teams not to infringe.

if ur suggeestion about red cards were around now, then sharks would have had 10 men playing in the game against the chiefs.

i cant help but notice that these issues only come up after less then favourable results, when every team have been guilty of it.

@sharkbok,
neutral referees, i completely agree, btu if they cant get neutral referees in the world 7 series like the glasgow finals which is an international event, i doubt that will happen in spXV.
im sure the brumbies would have loved a neutral referee last year when marius jonker ripped of them off to give the bulls a win.

cant help but notice not too much said about that back then too,,,,,each to their own though, but thanks to my sharingan, i see everything.

@ Clevermike - This was the exact tactic employed but good ol reliable cheats from canturbury yesertday v brumbies... I agree yellow card immediately for this type of play.... the opnly problem with this though is bent kwiwi refs will use this to bring further advatnage through their misguided oversight of kiwi games.... I think the real solution is..... just ban kwiwi refs..........ahahahaaaaahahaaa.....