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FORUM / RUGBY /  SA ref bias?

SA ref bias?

Started by Crusadersfan21 REPLIES2,081 VIEWS· 17 Feb 2020, 07:30
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CR
CrusadersfanPro3,099 posts
17 Feb 2020, 07:30
#1
17 Feb 2020, 07:30#1

Interesting stats out of Australia regarding penalties counts when a home team has home ref in charge.


Super Rugby ‘home town refs’ penalty awarded differential since 2017:
Australia (+16) 26 games
New Zealand (-15) 39 games
South Africa (+159) 48 games
Argentina (+19) 3 games Like the article says its not looking at wether they were justified penalties or not just the number of penalties awarded According to the G&G Rugby research, the penalty counts in the qualifying matches showed:

Australia – 15 wins, 8 losses, 3 draws; Winning percentage 65% (ignoring draws)

New Zealand – 16 wins, 21 losses, 2 draws; Winning percentage 43% (ignoring draws)

South Africa – 36 wins, 7 losses, 3 draws; Winning percentage 83% (ignoring draws)

Argentina – 3 wins, 0 losses, 0 draws. Winning percentage 100% 


On the surface something looks as dodgy as f*&k in SA. Would be interesting to see the same stats for games with neutral refs. 


Think SANZAR have to go back to neutral refs for all games as it doesn't look good even if the penalty count and win ratio is 100% correct, the perception is SA is being given a massive advantage by having home town refs.

Also assuming that the info supplied is correct as from what I can understand its not from any official organisation





PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
17 Feb 2020, 08:12
#2
17 Feb 2020, 08:12#2

It's just rugby. 

Are you jealous?

Stop being a crybaby.

Tinfoil hat time.

You don't understand rugby.

It swings in roundabouts.

That journo is always bashing the Boks.

Refs are professionals and never cheat. 


Great. Now that's cleared up. Find something better to do with your time, Sader.



RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
17 Feb 2020, 09:07
#3
17 Feb 2020, 09:07#3

CFan, if those stats are accurate then there is definitely cause for concern.

Must say, I never understood this bizarre decision they took a few years ago to do away with neutral refs. Makes absolutely no sense and if the reasoning was to save costs on travel then the amount of credibility and goodwill they're losing far outweighs the costs of flying a few refs around every weekend.

CR
CrusadersfanPro3,099 posts
17 Feb 2020, 09:09
#4
17 Feb 2020, 09:09#4

Sounds like your the one crying like a little baby, some one posts something that puts SA rugby in a bad light and you squeal like a little bitch lol.

CR
CrusadersfanPro3,099 posts
17 Feb 2020, 09:17
#5
17 Feb 2020, 09:17#5

And Plum where I come from those stats aren't swings and roundabouts they are so far off the others that it raises serious questions.

You sound like the politician caught with his hand in the cookie jar going around saying "nothing to see here"  and trying to divert attention away.

Bet you wouldn't be quiet if in the next 3 years those stats did a 180 and NZ had those stat advantages.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
17 Feb 2020, 09:52
#6
17 Feb 2020, 09:52#6

Sader, Plum is being sarcastic and mocking you because the shoe is kinda on the other foot...



BTW, the skew penalty count for the Lion's home matches has been discussed here last season. Context can't account for such a big discrepancy. I for one would like to have an in depth breakdown of this by someone like Kaplan. It does not bode well for SA Rugby.

SE
SebPro2,680 posts
17 Feb 2020, 11:14
#7
17 Feb 2020, 11:14#7

Crusader if your statistics can indeed be verified then you can indeed have an alarming point.

Before we turn this into a dog fight, please substantiate this. A couple of other sources that agree will suffice. Not just one.

If you're right then it will set the alarm bells ringing.

Some refs I believe are professional and indeed they must be.

Although they must and not should, I believe there might be a few exceptions.

The human factor is always there.

PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
17 Feb 2020, 11:44
#8
17 Feb 2020, 11:44#8

Lol Draad.

One would have thought that was obvious.

Apparently not.



SE
SebPro2,680 posts
17 Feb 2020, 11:46
#9
17 Feb 2020, 11:46#9

Neutral are the answer, there is absolutely no doubt about that.

One has to enjoy your sport without controversies clouding the issue, no true sportsman likes to win at the others expense.

Yes, we have plenty of cheats and thieves in SA politics but I'd hate this to spread to sporting adjudication. It would kill my enjoyment of any dual if that's the case and I'm sure most of us here.


PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
17 Feb 2020, 12:40
#10
17 Feb 2020, 12:40#10

It's very interesting to me how easy the South Africa fans find it to be objective. 

That same objectivity, in other countries, would be deemed being a sellout or traitor...unpatriotic even.

Yet, literally nobody is lashing out in defence. Everybody looks at the numbers and provides an honest opinion based on the facts.

Isn't it weird?

Almost as though we care more about the game than winning.

The funniest thing of all is how Sader entirely missed the sarcasm. 

Like he is so used to using those pathetic counter-arguments about tinfoil hats, roundabouts etc, when his refs or teams cheat, that when someone else uses them in jest, he naturally thinks one is serious.

It really shouldn't be this easy.



sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,237 posts
17 Feb 2020, 13:53
#11
17 Feb 2020, 13:53#11
The stats last year were very lopsided in favour of South Africa. Rasta Ref, in particular, seems to give all 50/50 bounces to a SA team in SA. His stats were probably more one-sided than any referee ever in the tournament and was too much to be chance. 
This used to be a problem in New Zealand a long time ago, and a bit in Australia. There was no doubt New Zealand refs had a home bias, but this has been outdone with SA home refs recently. 
Neutral refs are the only logical answer.

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
17 Feb 2020, 14:01
#12
17 Feb 2020, 14:01#12

Not sure which is more annoying . . . this short-sighted reluctance to use neutral refs or some of the kit selections for travelling teams. The other day the Hurricanes travelled to Newlands to play the Hapless Stompies and instead of wearing their usual yellow strip that would have clearly distinguished them from the Stompies blue and white, they wore a neutral grey strip instead that hardly distinguished them at all and it was hard to tell who was who.

I mean seriously, who makes these idiotic decisions? I understand they all want to market their away strips as well but for goodness sake use a bit of judgement and discretion.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
17 Feb 2020, 15:44
#13
17 Feb 2020, 15:44#13

New Zealand teams won 43% of the games they played at home when there was a NZ referee?  It hardly seems credible....did 99% of all scientists agree. Or is this just another case of the Aussies can’t add?

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
17 Feb 2020, 16:32
#14
17 Feb 2020, 16:32#14

Now just looking at 2019,  NZ teams won 15 home games and lost 3 with  a couple of draws. And we are to believe they actually lost 57% of their home games under their own refs in  a 3 years period?


Somebody should look at this guy’s numbers.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
17 Feb 2020, 17:07
#15
17 Feb 2020, 17:07#15

And in 2017 it  was 25 to zero in favour  of NZ teams playing in NZ. And in 2018 it was 14 to 4 NZ.

So by my rough count NZ teams lost 7 games in NZ over the 3 year period. Which means 14 of the 21 losses had to come in overseas games reffed by NZ refs. 

So these are ‘home town refs’.....reffing overseas?  Are the numbers credible?

SE
SebPro2,680 posts
17 Feb 2020, 19:23
#16
17 Feb 2020, 19:23#16

Having a thought about this and to be fair on Crusader, he did not categorically state that was the case but put a question mark on his heading and used stats from an Australian source and not a NZ one.

The bottom line is that Neutral Refs are unquestionably needed.

A point that we all agree on. Everybody would be happy with that especially the players I'm certain.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
17 Feb 2020, 19:40
#17
17 Feb 2020, 19:40#17

I just shine the truth on the mountains of rugby bs....use it or discard it as you please.

SE
SebPro2,680 posts
17 Feb 2020, 20:38
#18
17 Feb 2020, 20:38#18

Stats can be defective either way you look at it.

Neutrality would quell any argument and satisfy everybody.

There is no logical reason why this cannot be done.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
17 Feb 2020, 21:34
#19
17 Feb 2020, 21:34#19

Sure. But this article implies massive bias on the part of SA refs, but some of the numbers appear dubious on the face of it. In fairness they should be questioned.

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,237 posts
17 Feb 2020, 22:14
#20
17 Feb 2020, 22:14#20
Rooineck, not as bad as who arranged for 3 out of the 4 Super Hero kits to be the same blue colour - used in local derby games between SA teams. There was also no away Super Hero stripe. 
It was the Stormers and their fans fault that this Super Hero stuff started, but who choose outfits (or Super Hero's) that were all blue (other than the Sharks which was black). 
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
18 Feb 2020, 02:18
#21
18 Feb 2020, 02:18#21

.

Mark Reason: The referees who threaten rugby's healthMark Reason12:19, Feb 18 2020SKY SPORTBlues v Crusaders

Damian McKenzie and Richie Mo'unga reminded us at the weekend of the extraordinary talents that so often blaze across New Zealand Rugby. They also reminded us, unwittingly, of the crude side of the game. Mo'unga in particular was a target for the wreckers who, pumped up by their own competitive envy, go about smashing up the revellers at the dance.

The game at large has recognised that the scourge of the high tackle is a problem that cannot continue. It is simply not okay that Mckenzie and Mo'unga and the rest of the magicians should confront a painful, fuggy, drooling middle-age when their glory days have passed. It is simply not okay to let sportspeople beat each other about the head.

But New Zealand, or at least large parts of the rugby community, are still struggling to come to terms with this relatively simple concept. There are still way too many high tackles going on in Super Rugby and it is scandalous just how infrequently they are being penalised.

In the four games involving Kiwi teams at the weekend just gone, I counted around forty high or dangerous tackles (several from the opposition, particularly the Sunwolves). There was one yellow card and four penalties. That means about one in ten dangerous tackles is being penalised. So what on earth is going on?

Hannah PetersReferees need to better protect playmakers such as the Crusaders' Richie Mo'unga from high tackles, asserts Stuff columnist Mark Reason.

READ MORE:
* Reason: 'ABs should learn to tackle, or go home'
* Some Kiwis lash out after World Cup failure
* Study shows refs' 'home bias'
* Reason: Crusaders choose money over morality
 

J'accuse Lyndon Bray. Super Rugby's game manager has consistently failed to bring the southern hemisphere's premier competition up to northern standards of safety conscious officiating. Bray has appeared to be far more interested in the 'product' than in player welfare.

Marty MelvilleLyndon Bray, Sanzaar's referees manager, pictured during his role as NZ rugby referees chief in 2010.

Before this season Bray said; "The (referees') camp has allowed the Super Rugby refereeing team to continue to evolve its game plan and match management protocols, anchored by the key deliverable, "how do we as referees deliver a successful Super Rugby game?"  Within this is the main objective to assist the very talented players in the tournament to play their best rugby."

When your mouth is full of words like protocol and key deliverable, you know that it has headed south and now resides somewhere near your backside. The main job of the referee is to referee fairly, accurately and safely. He is not a ringmaster. Super Rugby refs failed at all three of those "key deliverables" at the weekend.

Evan BarnesPaul Williams, pictured refereeing the Crusaders-Waratahs game, failed to protect the Crusaders from high tackles by the Blues.

Paul Williams is a promising young referee but he failed to protect the players in the game between the Blues and the Crusaders on Friday night. There were some horrendous tackles in the match and they went unnoticed and unpunished.

Most of the violence came from the Blues. In the fourth minute Patrick Tuipulotu, who otherwise had an outstanding game, came at Mo'unga. His tackle was high, reckless and his shoulder appeared to make contact with Mo'unga's head. It looked like a red card offence. Not even a penalty was given.

This official negligence extended to TMO Shane McDermott who did not intervene once to call Williams's attention to dangerous play. It is as if the World Cup never happened. It is as if World Rugby's belated, but laudable attempts to make the game safer never happened.

Mo'unga was the victim of three attempted high shots and nothing was done. TJ Faiane was guilty of three high tackles in the second half and Tuipulotu and Parsons were out of order on more than one occasion. They too were not sanctioned.

Fiona GoodallCrusaders prop Oli Jager leaves the field after an accidental clash of heads.

It was also noticeable how different the tackle technique of the two teams was. The Crusaders got it badly wrong on one occasion when Oli Jager and Codie Taylor were upright and had a horrible clash of heads. But they have changed. They are consistently going far lower than in previous seasons.

The Blues have not managed to make the same progress. This is surely down to coaching. The cheerful Tana Umaga, not noted for sparing opponents' heads during his playing days, is in charge of the Blues' defence. Mark Jones, a former Wales wing, is in charge of the Crusaders's defence.

Jones said before the season; "We've been working pretty hard on our tackle technique. And I think all the Super franchises would have been buying into that too. I think it's a sensible approach to the game."

Most Super Rugby teams, with the exception of the Blues, have made significant improvements in their tackle height. Unfortunately the referees and officials have not.

The failure of Nic Berry and TMO Ian Smith to red card Sio Tomkinson was shocking. How on earth did they think there was no contact with the head of Tom Banks. Berry sent off Bundee Akee and John Quill at the World Cup, so he knows the standard.

It is hard not to assume that, back in the southern hemisphere, their standards have dropped. Oh my goodness, don't give someone a card, it might spoil the product. Tomkinson was guilty of a dangerous tackle that lacked a wrapping arm in the first half and he was ludicrously let off by a jury, headed by a New Zealander, after Glen Jackson had rightly sent him off for a dangerous tackle on Brodie Retallick. Tomkinson has form.

A swinging arm from the Sunwolves Conraad van Vuuren to the head of the Chiefs first five only merited a penalty in the game over in Japan. 'Wow' said the Chiefs coach in the box when the decision was relayed. But it was a weekend of wows.

Dianne MansonReferee Ben O'Keeffe's rulings questioned in Hurricanes v Sharks game.

And the biggest wowser was Ben O'Keeffe. From the end of the first half of the game between the Canes and the Sharks, the New Zealand ref made a series of decisions that reminded you of the days when the man in the middle would say; "Our ball."

He changed a decision at TJ Perenara's request. He let the Canes seven consistently play ball off his feet. He gave the Canes a scrum when Lukhanyo Am had caught a kick, so regardless of whether it was ruck or maul, it was still Sharks ball. His touch judge missed a Canes foot in touch. O'Keeffe said advantage from a knock on when circumstances clearly dictated that there was no such thing and the Canes waltzed back in for a try.

There were numerous more decisions that were clearly wrong in this match-deciding 20 minutes. It finally came to a head, literally, when Dane Coles slid in on the tackled man on the ground and made contact with his head. Between them O'Keeffe, the ref who failed to send off Reece Hodge at the World Cup, and TMO Aaron Paterson decided that there was "an attempt to wrap" so "just a penalty."

This was an astonishing decision. Mind you, this was the duo that had earlier ruled out a Sharks try for a forward pass that was three phases back. But the point about Coles was that he had no business sliding into a tackled player on the ground. So his act was both illegal and dangerous. It was a straightforward yellow card.

GETTY IMAGESA stoush involving Hurricanes hooker Dane Coles and his Sharks rivals.

But just in case the refs had a multiple brain fade, Coles made their job easier by playing a Sharks jumper in the air (he dove through dangerously on the legs) at a lineout two minutes later. Just a penalty. The Sharks captain Am observed wryly after the game that his side had not had "the rub of the green."

The Sharks did not have the rub of the green but neither did all the players who were victims of the dangerous tackles. Do you expect any player to be suspended (apart from Tomkinson) for repeated dangerous play as the new 'protocols' allow? Do you expect any referee to be stood down?

No, nor do I. It's a worry. The eight red cards at the World Cup, more than the previous four tournaments combined, changed the game for the better. The Southern Hemisphere officials, with New Zealanders to the fore, are in the process of changing it back again. It's got to stop. It's time that Mark Robinson, the new CEO of New Zealand Rugby, used his power and spoke out. This is not about rugby, it's about health.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Feb 2020, 02:58
#22
18 Feb 2020, 02:58#22

It seems to me Rugby officiating improves at the World Cups and then slides back. There is always a cause celebre at each WC.....in 2015 the neck roll was officiated much more rigorously than before. In 2011 Warburton was shown red for a tip tackle that would have been given a yellow before the tournament.


Our reffing and rules are convoluted....but just look at the mess soccer officials are making of much simpler calls.

— END OF THREAD —

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