Saffex - Message on Francois Steyn

Saffex

I went to PMB on Friday sepecially to see how some Shark players perform.  I did report on that game and pointed out some real proress.

On the issue I pointed out that I saw Francois Steyn from about 10 meters away - and there were two remarkable physical changes in him - he slimmed down considerable from what  he was in the tests and looked much leaner and fitter.   He also had a full head of black hair and no sign of balding.   He was so different that I could not believe my eyes when I saw him.   That is why I said his new wifey apparently does not want to be married to a fat, overweight nad balding slob (LOL)

However, I noticed and commented on a huge improvement in his performances compared to how he played in the two Super Series games and tests he was invovled in last year.   In this regard I mentioned especially the following:-

*    He limited crashhballing (90% of his game in 2012) to th absolute minimum;

*    He attackd the gain line with about double the speed he shoedd  in 2012

*    He did not run straight at opposing defenders - but attacked in the spece between them

*    He made two major line breaks and scored a try.

*    His passing game was in fact very good

*    His defence was 100% and he tackled players back. 

There was only one deficiency not corrected and that was passing of the balls in tackle situations - but that could still be corrected by Carlos Spencer.

Now lets get down to reality.  The Sharks played a weak team and I therefore want to see whether Steyn in fact carried on his performances on the same high level in Super 15 itself.   I am beginning to accept that he would make the grade - but the real issue is sustained prformance.

You always accuse me of being biased and not objective about a player's performance.   Unlike you I do not endeavour to change a sows ear into a silk purse.   If a player does perform meritoriously I give cedit and often more than the player deserve - if a player fouls up - he is going to get it in the neck and his foul ups will not be ignored.   Non-performance or prformance is to be continuous week after week - a fat-in-the-pan one-off is also not good enough.

Mike my point all along was that your call on Frans in 2012 was completely wrong.

Frans is a class act and is one of the first names that should be penciled in for the Bok side at 12, no questions asked.

Frans has nothing to prove and Meyer knows this, he proved it ages ago

Saffex

Sorry to disagree with you about his 2012 performnces - he really was not at all acceptable and I listed those things he did not do last year.

I - like many other people in SA - looked at his performances and got the jitters - and I would not give him credit for perfromances in previous years or as wou said "ages ago".   That really counts for nothing - there are many players that became useless and poor after a brilliant career start.   Unless high level performances are maintained - a player does not qualify for automatic selection on the basis of reputation  - and Steyn in 2012 was a pale shadow of what he used to be.

If he keeps up his good performance  of last Friday - I would always support his selection - if he reverts to his 2012 form - he must go.

I am pretty sure he has learnt some real lessons and we will see a better player this year. 

Wrong, you and those few other people got it wrong. Frans was damn good in traffic, his physicality draws defenders in, he is difficult to stop. His one break in open play was the best break by a Bok centre in 2012.

There was a reason Frans and JP had the highest player ratings for the Boks in the tests Frans played - it was not because he was as average as you make him out to be.

I saw Frans with my own eyes and he was good in what was generally poor Bok performamces. He had nothing to learn and was sorely missed in that last test at home against the Poms, his absence was noticed

Arse!!

Saffex

Blinkers - blinkers and blinkers again.   Steyn was with his crashballing totally ineffective in 2012 - being tackled behind the gain line or making perhaps a meter beyond it.  The Dunedin line break you make mention of was nice - but it let to zero - just handover of the ball to the All Blacks.   However, that all is history now - so let it be.

Playing next to Lambie - who was brilliant on Friday - apparently did make a difference to Steyn - so lets hope he maintains his quality performances in Super15.

So then Mike, why did he and JP score higher player ratings than the rest of the backs huh?

Not every break leads to something, but what it does exhibit is individual class

Yes Mike. I too don't have much time for Frans Steyn.

Completely over rated.

Frans Steyn in my opinion is a child that has a tendency to lose all control of himself.

Sudden rushes of blood to the head and he ends up doing ridiculous things.

I don't like him ... at all.

Sometimes I get the impressin that the lights are on but there's nobody home.

I agree, Mike. It's time to move on. We have a shit load more talent at 12 in this country than he and considering him for any other spot in the match 22 is just plain absurd.

Saffex

Player ratings by journalists is worth as much as th toilet paper after usage and thrown into the toulet.   It is basically influenced by prsonal perceptions and is worthless.   Stats is a much better reflection of actual trends in performances over a numbr of games.   

If you take the ratings as the alpha and omega - how do you account for the high ratings given to Steenkamp and De Jongh after the Scotland test?    You and I know they were poor in performance - yet the papers gave them a high rating.   

There is one thing you apparently do not accept - that in the tests Steyn played in - our backline was basically dead.   Morne Steyn was largely to blame - but Francois Steyn and Hougaard made a major contribution as well.

Crap Mike those rating tell me you are speaking shit and I am right about Frans.

As for stats they tell very little as they provide no context. Stats are like a bikini, that show allot, but don't show everything.

de Jongh was ok against Scotland he was piss poor against England

Saffex

Absolute bullshit - with respect.  You said De Jongh is Ok - but I say to you he was given a 7,5 rating.   Ok means 5,5 not 7,5.  Ratings are reall bullshit

But the Varsity Cup is on and I am not going to continue this discussion.

Frans was damn good in 2012 and his ratings reflected this

Saffex

Every plqayr you support is lways :damn good" irrespective of how they perform.   When I support a player there must be REAL EVIDENCE - not somw  faiiry tale of Rubbish 

 Frans was excellent at the last world cup and did reasonably well in 2012. He was a bit overweight Mike but was still doing well. Thosae ratings prove you are talking nonsense.  I told you he would be whipped into shape and that he was a great player. Ita that old adage re class being permanent.

Frans coming BACK TO FITNESS IS HUGE FOR US AS HE IS A WOLRD CLASS CENTER WITH ALL THE SKILLS. His passing in the wc was excellent and you are daft to think he can only crash ball. It may have been a team tactic but we have see from Frans enough over the years to know he is far more than that. Mike and capone wake up please you dont seem able to recognise a major talent when you see one.  

When you support a player you do so because you know they are class. There is nothing fairy tale about Frans Steyn. What utter rubbish!!! What clueless drivel!

Spot on for a change Beenkop, I am impressed

 Hope you will keep being impressed snapster but I doubt it.

Frans came back from France overweight. He had led the good life over there. He played reasonably well for the Boks but was clearly not at his best. But there can be no doubt as to his class.  waht Miike stumbled over was the high likelihood of Frans regaining his top form  -man Frans is still young and can be a mega star. 

No his form lasy year was not his best but it was pretty good nevertheless. Add in that siege gun boot and he is a must.

I note Moz wants him at 15. Also not out of the question. Meyer still has a lot of sifting to do. The fact is that Frans and Jordaan are seriosu contenders for the Bok center combo. when will jean go. Can Allende force his way in and play with Frans and Jordaan on the wing. Who knows right now.  Serfontein opened a few eyes last weekend as well. Losts of competiton and great young talent.

Beeno and Saffex

I never said that Steyn is useless.   What I did say was -

*   that I was not impressed with his performances in 2012; and

*   that his future selection - like that of every other player - should depend  on his performances in the upcoming Super 15 series.   

What always pisses me off is when people suggest selections based on some nition of past performances - without regard to their present performances.   I always said past "greatness" means nothing - present perrformances is what really counts. 

I cannot see how he really was "damn good" in 2012. The backline performance in general was mediocre - and Steyn did not show much to remove that mediocrity   However, that is past history and we must look at the future.

I now said that he was very good in the game on Friday - but I added that the improvement should be seen during all the games he plays in during the upcoming series.  If Steyn - or for that matter all other players - do not sustain performances on how level - they should not be selected.   Any other approach is frankly bullshit 

Well Mike my call was that he was good in 2012, given the circumstances. He had Morne inside him and we were playing boring kick and chase rugby.

When Frans did receive the ball, it was in traffic and his physicality counted. He carried the ball forward in contact - thats all he could do and he did it well

I think the problem here is everytime we hear the name "Frans Steyn" we feel safe and expect magic because he was the boy wonder when he started out.

He has not really captured that form since returning and no one can disagree that his physical conditioning was less than desirable but he was great when he stepped in for Jean at 12  in the 11' WC.

I am just really excited to see how Frans goes with Lambie inside him and Jordaan outside him for the Sharks and his conditioning improve. I think he will fast become a no brainer at 12 for the Boks. Even if Goosen is the man in the 10 jersey for the Boks, he will bring out the best in Frans. Keep Morne away. He makes Fransie's life harder than it needs to be.

With Lambie and Goosen, Frans can really shine in his running game and creating space with deft touches and he has a powerful running game if needed. He is definately pivotal to the Boks doing well. That is no maybe!

For me there are a few no brainers when it comes to the selection of the Bok team:

JP at 14, Frans at 12, Hougaard at 9, Beast at 1, Bismark at 2 and Etzebeth at 4

Saffex

I do agree with you - playing outside Morne must of essence have been a killer of rugby - nothing other than crashballing was possible.   However, despite what you said - Francois was really slow and ineffective in doing just that  - maybe because he was not really in good physical condition.

As foir your no-brainer selections I agree with you on most of them.   Hougaard - physically there was nothing wrong with him - however his rugby brain went AWOL and I would say his selction depends on it being recovered.

 Saffex will your no brainer selections change next week again? Just like your backline being reorganised to accomodate Sefontein at 13(out of position), and from this moving Taute from 13 to fullback and dropping lambie from the starting team. Is it that simple?  

As far as I'm concerned both Fransie and Hougaard have to prove they can play 12 and 9. Last year they were also "no brainers"....but that proved to be literally true...they played without guile. I have always rated these two players, but it has to be evident on the field of play.

Steyn ran 46 times for 102 metres. Thats 2.2 metres a carry, you almost can't do worse than that. Jean by contrast ran 14 times for 72 metres in the Rugby Championship games he was at 12. That's 5.1 metres a carry.

Hougaard was like a deer in the headlights once he played test 9....after being marginal in the S15. Maybe he'll get it this year.....but he has to prove he belongs at 9.

I have no problem with the idea of Fransie at 12 and Hougaard at 9, it makes perfect sense, but only if they perform.

Yeah I could add a few other no brainers like Goosen at 10 and Coetzee as a 7 or 8.

If you knew your rugby you would know that Serfontein has played 13 as well.

No selections are set in stone and when players like Lambie and Taute are able to play two different positions, movement is always a possibility.

A few days back, I would not have pushed Serfontein into the starting 15, but whats the point in waiting, this kid is pure class and with Frans the obvious choice at 12, the logical thing to do is play Serfontein at 13.

My bench would be: 16. Reinch 17. Lambie 18. JJ 19. Marcel v/d Merwe 20. A.Strauss 21. Willemse 22. CJ Stander

Saffex, you have JP as a no brainer at 14 but earlier posts you say you would put him at 13? Why if he is a "no brainer" at 14 would you move him infield? Surely no brainer dictates he is the best in his position in the country by some length.

Also, do you not like Jordaan or something? Every team you mention never includes Jordaan who is the epitomy of the word "Class!"

He was a stand out in SA's best attacking team in last years super 15. This man surely deserves a shot before any serfontein's and howard's... A full strength Sharks backline could easily just switch the black hersey for a green one.

9. Reinach

10 Lambie

11 Mvovo

12 Steyn

13 Jordaan

14 Pieterson

15 Ludik

Nothing wrong with that..Super rugby champs right there

I'd be happy to see JP at 13, but we dont need him there, we have young 13's to burn. I rate Jordaan, hence I have him on the wing. My only concern regarding Jordaan is his physicality, this S15 will provide the answers.

We cant leave Serfontein out of the side, so my call would be to play him at 13 outside Frans at 12 and move Taute to 15.

Saffex

The mania to move players around as to the Saffex ideas  i reachinng outrageous propeortions.   We would soon have a full bacline of moved players.  It really is a joke and in most cases unlikelyto happen in any event 

I assume you 10 would be Goosen. You said the best players must be on the field. So Lambie drops out now due to Serfontein having a good game. Surely Habana does enough to keep his place. He is our best.

So your backline is: Min is seperated by /

9 Hougaard / Van Zyl

10 Goosen / Lambie

11 Jordaan / Habana

12 Steyn / Steyn (JDV if Steyn is not an improved player)

13 Serfontein / Jordaan

14 Pietersen / Pietersen

15 Taute / Ludik (Taute needs to regain his touch. Too long out. Ludik is the man in form)

Saffex

I see your head’s up your ass again.

You seem to like it there, huh!!

Frans Steyn was awful … he’s been awful for a long time now.  We all know this … except you … of course.

No way he should be in the match 22 never mind the starting 15.

What’s wrong with you?

Wake up, man!!

Now we're selecting players out of position as well.

Oh brother!!! What next. Bring  John Smit back as captain.

Just a heads up, Dave … the day you and that dimwitted brownnoser Beano start agreeing on rugby issues is the day that you should realize just how ignorant you are.

Kapeesh??

15. Taute

14. JP

13. Jordaan

12. Serfontein

11. Habana

10. Lambie

9. Kockett

In a way  too it is way too early to start selecting players at this stage - it is mere guessing and badly so.   Let me explain - I think that we all should watch the Super 15 and analyze the performance of players objectively and critically.   Look at continuous high performance and we will all be in a better position to then suggest selections.

I do not believe that we can pick players like Serfontein at this stage.  He has to do what Etzebeth did last year - show in Super 15 that he belongs. I would say the same of players like Francois Steyn and Hougaard - if they do not perform as required they should not be selected at all.   However, the key issue remains sustained high level performances and that applies to all players.  Where everything is equal experience should come into the picture - but with a view to the 2013 WC players should not be over the age of 30 this year - and only rarely so.  Despite eveything written - I would for instance not pick Jean De Villiers - he cannot at 34 be in the WC squad.

That being said - the challence is that we must each of us be absolutely objective - put aside preconceived ideas and then go for proposed selections.   Each of us can even review the situation on a game per game basis and at the end of each month give our summary of our findings.  That would be a nice way to do it - without recriminations and insults of players or members.

In the meantime warm up gamesare not really a sound norm to determine suitability - it can be an indicator of what could be expected when the games really start - so lets be patient and see what happens over the next three weeks and then come up with our indicators as to which players perform well.   However, reasons for picks should also be provided based on acual performances in games.  

Boklogic my backline pecking order would be:

15. Taute / Lambie

14/11. JP / Jordaan / JJ / Habana / Mvovo / Rhule / Mapoe / v/d Heever

13. Serfontein / Taute / JJ / Jordaan / de Allende / Howard / Sadie / JP du Plessis / Swanepoel

12. Frans / Serfontein / Whitehead / F.Venter / de Allende

10. Goosen / Lambie / Jantjies

9. Hougaard / Reinach / v/Zyl / Groom

And yes I have no issue moving players around if they are proficient in various positions. I'm more than happy to see Lambie at 10 or 15, Taute at 15 or 13, Jordaan at 11 or 13, JJ at 11 or 13, Serfontein at 12 or 13, de Allende at 12 or 13, JP at 14 or 13, Frans at 12, 13 or 15

The art at any given time is getting your best 15 on the field. It might me a wrong call dropping Lambie for Serfontein, but I have a feeling this kid is what we have been missing for years in the midfield - time will tell

Cap, I like your backline, but it sells us short. Goosen is better than Lambie for a start and Kockett while handy in his day is probably past his best.

Your take on Frans is about as informed as your take on Hougaard - I'm guessing backline play was never your strength.

As for head up the arse - nay you have me confused with Moffie.

You strike me as a finger up the arse kind of chap?

Saffex

There is nothing that I could wish for more than to see the following players representing SA in tests -

Taute, Jordaan, Francois Steyn, Serfontein, Lambie. Goosen and Hougaard 

ITo the above list I would obviously see the retention of players like Pietrsen and Habana as ideal

Howeer, whatever I may like at this stage is not material - it should be based on performance.   I know the above would mean competition for certain positions - but I believe competition is good and may add value to the performances of players.

Ever since you pointed out Serfontein as a potential future star - I have built up a very high estimation of him as a player and I do believe he has the potential to be the best in the world.   Potential is wonderful - but he has to fight his way up the ladder to the top.  Hope he makes it.

Another isue is ball sense - I prefer clever players above most other things.   Of the above I rate Jordaan, Serfontein, Goosen and Lambie particularly highly on the ball sense scale.   In the case of the other three players they need to ensure further skill set development and maintenance of standards as those aspects are very important in their cases.  Lets hope they come through.

Frans has probably more of a skill set than the rest. Jordaan has great feet, I have not seen how good his hands are or his rugby nous. Serfontein looks to have it all as do Lambie and Goosen.

Add de Allende, Frans Venter, Rhule, Jantjies, Reinach, v/Zyl and JJ Engelbrecht to your list of players that hopefully will shine this year.

I would love to see players like Visser, Ulrich Beyers, v/d Heever, Mjekevu, Sithole, Mapoe, Howard, JP du Plessis, Sadie, Dries Swanepoel, Swiel and Groom get plenty of S15 action this year as well.

Saffex

Of the players listed by me - Jordaan probably have more ball sense than the rest - if you have not seen that as yet - you really never looked at his performances all over the field..   There is nothing wrong with his hands as well.   

I specifically limited the players list to those that has either shown massive potential on Super 15 level already or those I regard as real top future stars.  I will also like to add some other names - like De Alende, Howard, Rhule  and Swiel to the list and probably Swanepoel as well - but I have not seen enough rugby from them to finally make up my mind as yet.

From what I have seen from the others - I do not think that they would make the step up from Super 15 level to test level.   They are good players - but in most cases miss out on real top stardom quality.

Be it as it may - it will be interesting to watch Super 15 and see who really comes out tops.

Wrong Mike you really dont know your rugby - Jordaan is a hurly burly type of player - much like Jason Robinson was. He is a short stocky guy with plenty of pace and a really good step - the kind of player that is best suited to wing or outside centre.

You could not move him to 12 as he lacks that sense of touch and timing and he does look to have average hands - I dont expect him to make deft passes or create space for others with the use of his hands.

But saying this, this is only an initial impression as I have not seen enough of him yet. His strength is his low centre of gravity, speed and great feet - it is not his rugby brain or hands

Saffex

This is really crap about Jordaan.  He has done things that no cneter in SA did last year and was intrumental in many tries scored by the Sharks - probaby the best off-loader and passer there was as a center  in SA last year - proven in a number of games of the Sharks.   Just look at the top tries on Super Series level scored last year -- most of them by the Sharks - and if he did not score them himself - he was instumental in their scoring.

One of his top games last year was the Super Series final - where he played at 12 - so you are also wrong there.

There is one issue where Jordaan stands up way above other centers and that is his passing game.   He never made ill-time passes and he off-loads balls beautifully in tackle situations.   Just thnk about he Under 20WC game against England and his off-load that led to the fourth try against the English as an example.

I also wish to refer to the fact that he himself scored a try after joining a maul and prizing the ball from oppositon hands himself.   He did the same in the other most spectaculat try scored by the Sharks.  When he prized the ball loose in the Sharks 25 - he passed it to Pietersen and Pietrsen passed it to other players - the result being a score under the post by the Sharks.   There was no other center in South Africa that did that type of thing last year - so put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Ball sense - he has it all

Saff just a heads up on Jordaan. Most his age group rugby for the Sharks and club has been at 10. That was his preferred position when coming into the Sharks. Plum identified him as a good prospect at 13 and it worked out beautifully but the fact that he was noticed as a 10 is plenty proof that there is nothing wrong with his hands.

This kid has it all and its plain to see. He is leagues above JJ and Taute at the moment.

Boklogic

I remember now about Jordaan at 10.   I believe that Plumtree said he had a problem - he was not very effecive as a kicker of balls out of hand  at 10 - at least not as affective as they would like a flyhalf to be.  Hie move to 13 had nothing to do with his passing game   Matter of fact he played for Grey College at 10 and 12  - so I think Saffex was clutching at straws in this case so as to cast doubt about Jordaan.

If therre is one minor problem it is that Jordaan at times take up a position to near to maul situations - but I assume that is because of his early no 10 background.   .  

Saffex

Hurley burly - my arse - the more I read your take on Jordaan - the more I believe you really do not know anything about backline play nor anything about ball sense and skills..  

His "early no 19 background"?

Ou Maaik, are you saying Paul Jordaan had an early rugby career as a replacement loose forward?