Saffex - The Great Kolisis Debate

Saffex

Easy way out - but a loosie who carried the ball twice amd made 6 tackles in a game - is really not up to standard.   I am not argueing about the so-called context or distance gained - I am saying in a whole game he handled the ball twice in carrying it forward - whether he made three meters or five meters made no difference - what does is that at the end of that carry possession of the ball was retained by the Stormers.  What was clear he really was that he did not beat any tackles in the process - otherwise it would be classified as a line break .    A loosie at no 6 making 6 tackles in a whole game is really not performing at all.   You cannot argue conclusively that he made more tackles - neither that he was involved in any other way in the game or that he caused a turnover in possession at any time.  Those are all signs of activiies loosies are normally involved in on the field of play - so if he is not seen in that  regard - how can anybody reasonably say he has had a good game?

Fantasy rugby seems to have unleashed Mike. One simple question clevermike, why do you think Coetzee was dropped to the Bok bench:

1) Heineke was biased against him

2) Heineke just couldn't see his contributions

3) Louw was more productive.

Keep it short please, in your case you strain the limits of cyber space.

So Mike you conclude that because Vermeulen and Elstadt had 1 more carry than Kolisi and that Kolisi had the same carry as Kankowski and 1 more carry than Coetzee that these guys were better - wow and this based on stats alone - what a laugh and more importantly an insult to a rugby supporter.

Mike I'll say this one last time, stats make no impression on me as a rugby follower, for the simple reason that they do not provide context. I rely on my eyes and my eyes tell me that Kolisi was on par with the rest of the loosies on the day and no stats or anything will convince me otherwise

Mozart

None of the three

Louw was performing excellently for his club (Bath)  and is more experienced than Coetzee.

So Coetzee was doing the job for the Boks to Meyer's complete satisfaction.  And then he decided to pick Louw , who had 11 caps to Coetzee's 6. When Louw didn't know the team, was based in the NH  and hadn't exactly set the world alight at test level.

Mike you live in Cloud Cuckow Land.

There was a simple reason Meyer dropped Coetzee to the bench for Louw. Meyer tried to turn Coetzee into a 6, justifying his selection ahead of Brussouw on the grounds that Coetzee would provide more of an allround role.

We ended up having no-one contesting at the breakdown, so Louw was brought in. Had Coetzee played 7 or 8 and Brussouw 6, chances are Louw would not have got the call.

Meyer cocked that one up, much like a few other selections. Hell the best SA loosie of 2012 in CJ Stander was completely overlooked and is now sitting in Ireland - good one Ludeke and Meyer!!

Mozart

I do not know whether your statement is funny ha-ha or funny peculiar.   Putting a player on the bench does not mean that you are totally dissatisfied with him -  otherwise he would not be on the bench.   You miss out on the fact that Meyer himself said that he knows Louw from the past and that he would be an excellent player to help Cetzee on with his career.  Same was said by Louw.

And dont say - that Meyer knew nothing about Louw from watching his performances.  And Louw was always a top player in the past - in some respects better than some others like Burger and Smit.   There was never anything wrong with his credentials for selection in the past and in 2012.

You are not living in cloud cucckoo land - you are just not correct 60% of the time. 

No chaps....that's not it. Meyer selected Coetzee as his fetcher....Brussouw was scarcely available. Coetzee simply failed at that function. He is no fetcher....so Meyer looked around for his best option. That turned out to be Louw, who demonstrated just what we had been missing....our play improved vastly after Louw joined the team.

So the question becomes why not choose Coetzee at 7 and again the answer is simple. He is just not able to assert himself at test level....he doesn't have the ability to break tackles and be a force in the mauls. So he ends up as a tackler. But not an out wide cover tackler like Big Joe, he isn't fast enough for that....an energetic around the fringes tackler. This results in a high tackle count......but it's not enough.

He is a nice player, who like Botes will be a great S15 servant to the Sharks. He is extremely well coached and heady, which put him at the head of the pack of young loosies.....but they will catch up, while his upside is limited. In the end  we will find better physical talents to play for the Boks.

Coetzee is still young and could well improve, but I agree with Moz with regards to his play at this very moment. He just lacks a little something on the physical side. I don't think it automatically disqualifies him from being a future Springbok, but at the moment there are other loosies that are more rounded than him. Also, he may be a little on the small side....not the B all and end all, but something to take into account.

Saffex

Now we are getting there.   Kolisi was on par with the other loosies on a day that all of them was average at best - but really in the context of the game mediocre.

Is that a norm for Springbok selection?   Now lets just get back to reality about Kolisi.  His game th previous week was not better than the last one played - and his performance then was barely satisfactory - end of story.   He is not ready for Springbok selection and will have to do a hell of a lot better to be cionsiderd.  

Wrong Moz, Meyer never selected Coetzee as his fetcher, for he said he never needed a fetcher. He said he selected Coetzee over Brussouw as he thought the modern game did not need a specialist fetcher. He went for Coetzee as he maintained that he offered all round skills. Meyer was wrong, the game does need a fetcher.

Coetzee is fast enough and strong enough to make a test 8 or 7. At 1,91m and 106kg he is ideally suited to 8 and no doubt will be up at 110kg sooner than later. The kid has all the skills and energy to make a great Bok loosie.

I see the Sharks in their first match had him move to 8 when they were on attack. In Coetzee, Kolisi, Elstadt, v/d Walt, Botha and CJ Stander we have mouthwatering prospects as loosies for the Boks. Best pool of loosie talent I have seen in years. Add Brussouw, Louw and Vermeulen and we are sorted. 

Coetzee for Juan Smith.....we are going backwards. These chaps on your list are decent players....I see no superstars like Schalk, Smith or even Big Joe before all his injuries.

Disagree, Schalk was a hard man, but never offered that much in terms of skills. Coetzee is easily as good as Schalk was back then, same can be said of the rest of my list. Big Joe was good, but is no better than Coetzee, CJ Stander or Arno Botha at the same age.

My list of youngsters are as good as the likes of Juan, Schalk and Joe aged 22.

I would not be playing Coetzee at 7 anyway, so we need to compare him to Juan. Your test 7 needs to be a big unit.......Elstadt, Louw, v/d Walt, Alberts, Deysel, Steph du Toit, Grant Hattingh

Um Mike, if all the loosies on the field have at best solid games, not poor ones as you make out, then how on earth does that disqualify Kolisi from Bok contention, given that the other loosies on the field were Boks except Elstadt?

You are making absolutely no sense as usual

Schalk Burger walked onto the park in the RWC at age 20. Jerry Collins was picking the ball up at the base and running over Corne Krige. The first time he tried that with Schalk he was smacked to the deck.  Schalk was a giant from the the start. A year later he was IRB Player of the Year,  at 21. These kids aren't fit to tie his boot laces.

Saffex

Please learn one thing from an expert -  you do not select a Springbo based on one game only.  Sustained performance is an absolute essential.   By the way he other loosies were the previous week way better than Kolisi and that is a fact.

Mozart

Living in the past again.   I am a great admirer of Burger - but that does not mean he can be selected on reputation.   Like all other players he must prove that he still qualifies for selection. 

Moz, you cant debate with Saffex. In order to debate, one must have an open mind. He is a dictator and stupid one at that. Much like Mugabe from Zim or Julius Malema. Like to call the shots and say it how it is but they are so dumb!! They not open to opinions or others points of view. In their mind, they are right! In millions of others minds, we laughing.

Schalk and Juan, even at 22, were in different leagues to these men at the moment. The closest thing we have now to Schalk Burger is Keegan Daniel but unfortunately, Keegan has 1 major defect. He is much smaller than Schalk. He has all the x factor, he has incredible strength for his size and massive heart but he does not have the physicality of Schalk due to pure mass. Keegan has to be "that good" to have made it to where he is today. You rarely ever see small, lightweight loosies like that making the impact he does at the top level. He has the heart of Schalk but size has hindered him all his rugby playing life.

With Saffex, we get far too many guys selected or earmarked from "flash in the pan" passages of play. He is like Rudolph Straueli. Each week he would field new combinations all over the park when his "experiments" dont work..

He overlooks some of our best talent. With Bismarck and Strauss around, Fourie is unlikely to ever be a first choice Bok hooker. My thoughts are the Boks prefer someone bigger there too. Dourie should specialise at 6. He looks damn good there, plays with massive heart, has incredible low body position over the ball and strength you cant easily move. He also has some good pace. He can give Brussouw a good run for his money at the breakdown but also be a stronger carrier than Brussouw. Another one to watch is that 7 for the Cheetahs against Chiefs. His name was mentioned all game long as being a thorn in the Chiefs side. He has the right attitude and determination to make it big.

What Saffex does is just list every loosie from each union and say, "watch out for these names!" Ha ha thanks Mr Straueli. Why dont you go pick Pierre Uys from the Pumas on the flank for the Boks too. Maybe you can have 32 different centre combinations in 37 matches too so you get to play every centre you have earmarked. Make sure they 95kg+ on the day. If 94kg, they not fit to take the park ;-) You probably not gona find place for Frans Venter in the centres so be sure to tell Habana he is gona sit this one out and get Frans Venter on the park. Dont forget to send your boys to Kamp Stalldraad too just to make sure their passion is there ;-) Saff, saff ,saff...Too easy buddy!

 Excellent posts Moz and  Boklogic. Schalk and Juan were definitely better players at a similar age to guys like Coetzee and Kolisi. Man Kolisi is lighter than Coetzee - 100 Kg. This far he has looked as poor as last season. A couple of good games early on in 2012. Got knocked about a bit and now is less keen. 

Habana is no lightweight at 96 kg.

Deon Fourie is amuch better package than even brussouw. No Bok hooker should weigh in at 100 kg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Bismark, Tiaan and Strauss are all 110 kg plus. 

I agree re Daniel, great heart etc. The stupidity was not to make him into a scrummie. 

Beeno, we all know that NZL and Aus play their fetcher style flanks in the 7 jumper and SA in the 6. You look at Luke Braid and Karl Lowe, Jack Lam and Pocock. All built like Fourie. I would say Fourie has more pace than a few of those listed as well. We are missing a massive trick by playing him at 2. He is not as dominant in the tight. In the tight loose though he is a revelation. Why do they play him at 6 all Currie Cup and then do this now? He looks awesome all year at 6 then looks ordinary at 2.

No man..I am positively sure that at this present time, Deon Fourie is SA's best option in the 6 jersey. Kolisi to my mind does not even stake a claim. He is not even top 5 at the moment. You are right. Beginning of season, hit the scene like a freight train, little known of him and he used that to his advantage. By end of season people were aware of him, couple knocks and all of a sudden, very ordinary flanker!

 Wow Boktwat as Rooinek aptly calls you, my guess is that after this clanger of a post, Moz will want to distance himself from such stupidty. Its one thing to bang on about Schalk and Juan, who for the record were damn good players but to equate Daniel with them is ignorance of the highest order.

Boktwat, I knew you were stupid but this takes the cake. I am not even going to bother with pointing out the errors of your way.

What do you think of elephants eating onions?

To be fair, I dont post what you want me to post or what others are thinking. I post what I can see. I am not interested in catering to Mozart's tastes the same way he is not interested in mine. We actually have healthy disagreements on players that dont involve abuse because unlike you, Moz is not a c*nt!!

Now, are you gona sit there and tell me Keegan Daniel has no heart? Are you gona tell me he is weak? Are you gona tell me that he does not have that "X factor" that some players just have? That is all I said about him and thats exactly what Schalk and Juan have. The only difference is Keegan Daniel is about 10+ kg's lighter than them which is why he is not a Bok regular!

He has been selected to play for the Boks so obviously guys in higher positions and more grey matter between their ears than you have can see this also. Is that not a fair comment to make?

If Daniel was the close to the size of Schalk and could play like he does and has over the years, he would be a very decorated Bok.

Yeah, please dont point out my errors Dave. We know every poster takes your word as gospel and respects you as a poster..Ha ha give it your best shot Dave. Lets see how much further you can sink yourself. U barely treading water as it is.

Let me ask you this. In your mind, is Keegan Daniel not a great player?

The same man who thinks Kolisi is god. What Keegan has done will piss all over him. Daniel is a great player, a great leader, massive heart, x factor and all the rest. Its unfortunate that this was all put in a body 8 -10 kgs's too light. He still gets more go forward in the hits than some of the bigger flankers you name. Get it Dave?

 Stringbean, stay off the player analysis man - I am more interested in your take on elephants and onions.

Thought as much. I guessed you would be because you do seem like you are "away with the fairies!"

Lets agree that we have exposed each others weakness. You got me there Saff. Elephants and onions is my weakness. I know nothing about them.

Elephants and onions is to me what rugby is to you. I hereby agree to teach you the game of rugby if you can teach me all you know on elephants and onions. Have we got a deal?

My first lesson before we can continue..You need to refrain from talking rugby. You confuse yourself and are more entertainment than Russell Peters live!! My job is to bring some repectability back to your life. You might also need to cut your hair though. No one takes a man with greasy long hair seriously since the 60's!

Its gona be a long and tough road to get people believing in you and taking you seriously but I will give it a go.

 Stringbean, take a step back.....its not 'I will give it a go' its 'I will give it a shot'

Kolisi needs to up his game. Schalk Burger at 50% will make more contribution than Kolisi. 

Does Kolisi consider himself as fetcher, I do not see him doing much carrying either.

Or perhaps he is an allrounder than just very little in each area.

The only thing that is counting in his favour so far this  year, is that no many other players are playing well either- so far.

 Yeah good one Twatbok, good old Schalk who has done nothing of note for the past 2 years

You obviously dont remember Schalk's  SA Player of the Year award in 2011....Dave. Which I would call something of note as opposed to nothing of note....after which he was injured, making it difficult to do more things of note!

Who knows how Schalk comes back after his injury, but before he was injured he was in a different league to these youngsters.

Mike you certainly touched a raw nerve when you posted this debate...I don't think Kolisis has ever attracted so much attention, certainly not of late on the playing fields.

Really enjoying the comedy here with all the participants...SA parliament,the Goon show,Monty Python,Fawlty Towers,Black Adder etc all have nothing on this one...the only participant missing here would be old Snor himself...his remarks,philosophies,logic and theories on the game.

The context's of elephants and unions...really very funny...actually I could see PDV saying something like this...something akin to his remarks..."we won the game on the field but not on the scoreboard".

Great commedy post guys...old Mike certainly knows how to bait ol' snapster and boklogic adding more fuel to the fire.

Our Kiwi mates must really enjoy Saffa posting.

 Ha ha sebastian, its too easy really. I feel like a bully. Just gota give old Saff a little rope and he will hang himself.

When u push him into a corner and he realises he is stupid, he will try twist words then ask you something stupid to deflect like elephants and onions. He is a clown. Just gota laugh.

Yeah Seb, I forgot to mention that the elephants were pink in honour of Stringbean

 Its the same predictable stuff from Fat Dave.

Allways choose a new young player after a few games to be a wolrd beater. That is until the new young player on the blocks shows up.

The older players are allways done like Habana throughout 2012- who just happens to win players of the year in 2012 and best international try award, and someone like Sithole who cant even make the Sharks SuperXV squad must be choosen as the bok wing in place of Habana.

Also, the Saffex watch list.

Just a print out of all the junior players from either the Under20 Bok Squad, or Unions under20 teams. 

Next year is the print out of next years juniors players to the watch list. Just add every single player to the watch list and it is not possibale to go wrong as some are bound to become future springboks

Living half way across the world how can you actually assess most of these players?

From a few news pieces, from the websites of the rugby unions?

Most of their games are not on TV so realistically you cant assess the players.You are not in SA to watch the games live.  All you have is a print out of their height and weight and age.

Its just Saffex the board clown.

Ah Twatbok, which player have I not been in a position to comment on that I have pushed for higher honours you ignorant twat?

Is there a sin in seeing so much positive in the youngsters coming through. I am not a negative twat like you that has an issue with our talent.

Here are some facts for you, you ignorant fool. I made the call on Habana early in the season last year when his form was poor. When he improved I acknowledged that I was wrong about him and have selected him in my Bok side ever since. But you are such a wanker that you do not mention this very fact, rather mentioning the point at which I called for his head. Tell the full story you waste of space.

I see you are a pathetic liar as well - where have I ever selected Sithole as a Bok wing - man up and answer that one you low life?

 Saffex if anything you do provide some good entertainment value. When ever someone disagrees with you suddenldy you become the 8 year old child whos toy was taken away from them. Ha Ha!

And Twatbok, you are just a liar

Saffex is indeed entertaining...always enjoyed old Snor remarks but our expat friend's remarks have added flavour to this blog...I'm still chuckling about the elephant that now has changed it's colour and those unions. He is very contentious at times but some things he says make sense to be fair...he raised a very good question...why the major rugby nations in the SH do not have the "A" sides...a damn good idea, even the PI side Tonga has an A team. It works well for the European sides...I think even Argentina has an "A" side if I'm not mistaken. It will allow the budding youngsters good play time to settle in instead of warming benches and being shunted from pillar to post.

I surmise that ol' Mike posted this debate with a tongue in the cheek attitude knowing full well what fish with take the bait and sure enough it was within moments he hooked this one.

The Kolisi bait worked well...he's now using the Francois Hougard question being omitted from Bull's team. It will be interesting to see what happens here. Maybe he won't rise to the occassion as this one has become a bit stale.

Onions not unions...think I'm losing it...cannot stop laughing...I think some of you guys must see the lighter side.

Turnaround is fair play....TMS.

Seb

I have all kinds of problems with Saffex lately - he always was an easy fish to catch - just name some of his favoured players - who in fact has been useless - and the baitis taken in a flash.   It normmally goes on and on until he has run out of insults.

Just refer to stats and he flares into an uncontrollable rage - something to do with bikiis and context.   Mind you I like bikinis.

As to my latest efforts I do not get the expected response from Saffex.   I called Francois Steyn and Earl Silky Hands Janties saboteurs of attacking backline play and instad of taking the bait - Saffex froze up - very disappointing.   Maybe I am getting to near the truth in those cases.

Any other suggestions to make Saffex losing his cool will be sincerely appreciated.  LOL

Saffex would be an ideal candidate for Dr Phil's show...lol.

Mike you do realise that when I call you a dumb arse I am saying it with a smile on my face.

Hell Moz and I have traded untold insults, many below the belt and we are still able to smile about it .......what does that tell you.

Don't kid yourself that you are pulling my strings. If I did not respond to you in kind, there would be no activity on this board, or should I say very little traffic