Skilled power......not dumb power

 There is a sentiment for a power pack growing on this Board. Hey this is a SA  site. But watching Potgieter look just like Deysel last week....we have to make a distinction.

Schalk and Alberts are power players. But they read the game....so they are there to link and they find space. Dumbies like Potgieter and Deysel try to knock down rubber tree plants, if you remember the old song.

Watch young Coetzee for example, he almost always steps before making contact, and slides into the space between the tacklers....not soPotgieter.  Watch the replays of the AB game. They won because their pack was incredibly precise. They play together, cover the park, yield few penalties. Our big AB losses have come  at the hands of their packs....not in back play.

Lets have power, but skill is more at issue

Mozart

Thanks for the posting.   I agree with you whole-heartedly on the neede for skillful players and must add that it should apply to all 15 players,   Skills development is a MUST if we want to progress in Rugby.

I do not support the so-called power pack concept and called it a myth.    

Well said Moz, we certainly need a pack of skilled, fit and mobile players with good rugby brains. Potgieter and Deysel are absolutely mindless, but it's not all their fault....it's the way we get brought up in rugby here in SA. I was an openside flanker in the early eighties and remember quite clearly my coach telling me to carry the ball and bash into the opposition with thunderous ferocity so you beat him into submission.

Ball skills, stepping, running good lines and thinking your way around the park is the way to go. This is something the Kiwis thrive on, it's about time we let our pride take a back seat and change, or we risk losing being a top, feared rugby nation.

 The Bulls Potgieters are just caveman without a club to hit people with. Diesel is not different. 

 The Bulls Potgieters are just caveman without a club to hit people with. Diesel is not different. 

a power pack is important but power is nothing without the control and precision as you rightly said. technique/skills is even more important in many parts of the game.

our forwards has the primary school mentality that they are trained to run over people because of there size if they used that brawn much better instead. i still feel the relevant coaches indoctrinate there players into not thinking. in a half gap a big strong runner is 10 times more likely to bust a tackle and be more effective.

the AB pack is very street smart and battle hardend. i have never seen a AB scrum go backwords or nor have i ever seen AB pack get bullyed. so those that think the boks pack can just run through them are in for a rude awakeing. more often then not we pip them in the forwards but they tend to neutralise our forwards momentum (spoiling ruck ball, because our "power pack are to slow and ineffective at the ruck) and then they just blast it at the back.

the AB and wallies are the past masters of player skill development that is why there rugby system is so effective. they do not overcoach there players. they have skills coaches just for that purpose while we employ kicking coaches. shows how primitive the mindset is. seems like some coaches are stuck in a timewarp...

it shows how far SA needs to develop to reach a stage that we can dominate across the board on every age level and any other level. skills development is a major factor and that differs from the pack to the backs but there is not enough going around at the moment.

the likes of jordaan and co shows what a proper skills development program can do and how its effects a player. he is a junior but is outgunning players that are far more exprienced.

sorry for the off the point piece but i dont buy into the power pack myth. history has shown that the power pack/ team has never won anything major under the new elv's since it was implemented.....food for thought.

Agreed, we've hung with bigger and a good boot to  our detriment, hell the Ozzies figured on skill and brainpower years ago with smaller players and rang rings around us. The most skillful back we have right now is Paul Jordaan but he's not even in the Bok squad, I bet if he was 6 foot something he'd make the cut overnite.

Agreed, we've hung with bigger and a good boot to  our detriment, hell the Ozzies figured on skill and brainpower years ago with smaller players and rang rings around us. The most skillful back we have right now is Paul Jordaan but he's not even in the Bok squad, I bet if he was a bulls player he'd make the cut overnite.

Fix'd it for you :P

Guys some great points and hopefully our future is bright with the winning of the under 20 RWC....I for one didnt watch any of those games but we must be buoyed that we beat the Kiwis at their own game from what I have been told and read?

The interesting point and it was mentioned on here is that Kiwis and Wobblies are coached differently.

I do want to point out that the Wobblies for all the negative that they have had for years have not been the whippping boys for their so called weakness in their forward packs that we have always been told they have been. Afterall you dont stay at the very top without having a good forwrad pack.

 The Wobblies have amazing skills on par with the AB's but just not in the numbers that the AB's do.....

Nonetheless they have maintained 2nd or 3rd spot since the modern game started. There is a pertinent point in that statement in that though they have lacked the real punch the Wobblies have kept at the top simply through skills and not power.

Looking back to our game the under 20's success should be bottled and learn from that process. As we can not miss this opportunity.

If you look at the AB's all or most of those players currently have come through their age group programmes, junior rwc teams etc so its not just about breeding these players...its about keeping them as well!!!

Do we try adopt a game that is based upon what the AB's do well? Im not so sure as they do things that no other team in the world can do........Why dont we look at where they have failed and everyone has said that it has been pressure...and yes that is correct but how do we maintain that pressure game in game out against the kiwis?

What is that distinct edge that we need to have that will take BOK rugby to the mantle of the best? Or is this an unrealistic goal? Is the domination of world rugby not possible because the modern game is bringing teams closer and closer?  Well we know this is not true as the AB's have an enviable record that we would gladly take from them.

We have performed admirable and at  times we did dominate  them and wow what a feeling. But like everyone on here bar, Brycy and Sasu are sick and tired of being told we have the team and players to beat them year in and year out and we simply fail to deliver the promise.......

If we cant beat them at their game, lets tweak ours a bit more rather than being so frekin predictable?.......Let's put a coach into a role who's sole goal is to study every recent game where the AB's have lost and break it down point by point and then generate that into a strategy to beat them consistently...how hard is that to do South Africa!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again..."if we keep doing what we do we will keep getting what we get"..............................We win a game or two against them and think that we have the solution and yes the game is sometimnes won on a refs decision or something controversial.

However, consistency is the only way we will become number one. We need to have the confidence that they have to win key gmes away.

Why do we struggle so much to beat them in NZ I ask? Yet their record of beating us in SA is way to high....So there in lies one critical key to our strategy. The AB's not only do it against us but they go around the globe and become flat track bullies....Thats also attitude, belief that comes from knowing your the best?

Heres something interesting guys......NZ took 24 years to win the RWC a second time and they deserved it. However, they were villified every 4 years for failing and they gained the tag of "chokers"....

However, in between all those years the AB's dominated most of the time and the world was always trying its best to catch up including SA. They never let the failiure of losing the RWC stop them from developing their game and adapting to the rule changes. 

Now that the Kiwis have lifted the chokers monkey off their back we best watch closely what they are up to or we will be competing for a minor place at the next RWC?

My question to every one is what has South Africa done since the modern game has started? What did we do inbetween the RWCups we lost?

I am sure you guys are not happy with second againts the Kiwis all the time....There is no real pride of yesteryear in our green jersey.

The kiwi game is simply faster, more skilled, better planned, more consistent, they respect us immensely but dont fear us, they have more than a single strategy and they possess a more cohesive unit?

So what are we going to do about it South Africa?

 Dumb Power is often better than skilled power. The more power the better regardless of whether it is skilled or dumb

What the hell are you on about????

Please enlighten me on how "dumb power" is better than "skilled power".......Are you a frekin twit like your name sake FFS idiot go away!!!!! and troll on the kiwi or wobbly forums

@radtab nice honest post..

its not like we are basing the boks or SA rugby....we all are rugby mad people and want for the most of us the boks to be the best in the world. that being said to be the best you have to be the best in all aspects of the game. for that to happen one needs to change the mindset that is the biggest problem to overcome in my view and the rest will follow suite.

looking back at boks history from the 30's onwards we were always known for our running rugby. even out running the likes of NZ and we were the best. we had a better win % against the AB but after the likes of naas botha and the early 90's all the arm chair wannebee coaches started thinking that this is the golden rule of being a champ side. instead of building on that platform we have gone sideways in many aspects.

there is no shame is admitting you weak points but if SA rugby can develop those weak points then we can be a massive rugby force in the world. at this current stanza we are not there as much as it pains me to say

Well its not rocket science to realise you need both skill and power. What skill do you lose if you picked a pack like this:

Coenie, Bissie, WP Nel. Etzebeth, Bekker, Schalk, Vermuelen and Alberts? (940 kg) There you have skill and power. More power than the abs could handle.

Its really about  how to get a functioning backline in place. Having forwards with a real edge will help so pick the right ones.  So we need good backline coaching and selection of players. Where we have fallen down is in the brains department and allowing ourselves to be robbed to often by bent down under refs.

Mindless players will not cut it and they will be weeded out by Meyer. Deysel is far to slow and Potgieter has disapppointed thus far. The big men must be athletes as I have often said not lumps of lard. Hence my likeing for the mobile, hard driving 127 kg Coenie. WP Nel also gets really stuck in.

I am optimistic that we will get to the top under Meyer. He and Rassie are the best duo we have had for many a moon. I would though have liked a proven backline coach but we shall see what Loubscher can do.

Dont get too excited by what happens this year. Doing really well in the Rugby champonship this year will be a bonus. 

Sheesh you could throw a 1000kgs at the AB's and they will still beat you - you just dont get it do you????? You just are not even applying logic to your thought process. You can name whom ever you want to name in SA as being the best that we can throw at them but it is not the solution......

Nonetheless Beenbrain and I agree on some of your points. I have never shyed away from a 'power pack' however it will only ever be sustainable if it is combined with a level of skill and intelligence capable of fast, moving changing environment that occuurs on the field of play. To which we do not possess in the capacity we need it to be at this point in time!!!

We need a mindset change and as muncher said in our past games we were the masters at running the ball and we also had the power packs - Now if you may please define where or what we are at the moment in your words, as I am clear in my mind where I think we are.

As for our backline we are probably sitting around 5th best behind the AB's, Wobblies, French and Welsh for quality, skill, execution and sheer exhiliration. Our back line is so dormant and I can not remember ever when the Boks have had such a mediocre back line - take away Habana and JP and we are seriousy average!!

I agree we have suffered by giving away to the 'bent refs' we though were often the catalyst for our own demise by doing things that led to the Boks gaining noteriety amongst the refing fraternity. I need not mention some of the instigators. 

As for Meyer he took time to mould the Bulls and he will also take time to mould the Boks.....however beenbrain unless the game plan changes significantly by Meyer as we know he is a good coach on systems, then all he will do is mould a good team playing the same old same old?.......

The ELV's and the changing rules do not and will not favour our current style no matter how good we become at being proficient, ruthless and competent at 10 man Bulls rugby.

Last week against the Argies was a prime example of how we are not adapting to these rules and our game plan subdues our intent to score points. Or are we going to blame rustiness? Or bad luck? Or the Argies played well?......We were on a hard surface 20-6 up at halftime and we failed to deliver the kioller punches....thats a concern with only two weeks before we start playing the big boys!

So in my thoughts I dont quite share your enthusiasm beenbrain about Meyer making the difference and domination that we desire...simply because he offers nothing that will be radically different and creatively masterful to cause the Boks to change what they currently do.

I so hope I am wrong and I will duefully take the heat and smacks if Meyer and the mighty Boks prove me wrong. But I worry at this point in time in where we are at with the amount of talent we have availble......There are undercurrents within our rugby climate that are contributing to where we are and I dont see us challenging for 1st place but for second against a weak Wobblies team that will pushh us all the way.

 Agreed Potgieter is not the answer, Meyer has selected poorly here - there are a host of better options, starting with leaving Alberts at 7 and moving Coetzee to 8

I would stick to the Sharks trio with Coetzee, Alberts and Daniels with just positional swop putting Daniels at 6, Coetzee at 7 and Alberts at 8. Pogieter is as dumb as they come and has absolutely no class at all.

@ yeah beeno 940KG's hey.....how about 1200kg's while you at it. maybe you should move the roids from the forwards to the backline. maybe then they can score some try's

beeno just read radtad's post then have a look at your post. maybe then no cups coetzee can remove the egg of your face

 Green, I would play Daniel off the bench. My trio would have been 6. Kolisi 7. Alberts 8. Coetzee

Coenie, Bissie, WP Nel. Etzebeth, Bekker, Schalk, Vermuelen and Alberts.

I am assuming Vermuelen and Schalk come back to full fitness and form.

Now be precise oaks what is wrong with this pack.

I can see no reason at all why this pack will not gain the ascendency over the abs. If Schalk does not make it back in comes Coetzee.

I hear  bleatings about my power pack but nobody says who is a wrong selection except that nutter snapster who imagines kolisi is better than a fit and on form Burger. Hahahahahahahahahahahaha side splitting stuff from the snapster! The oak is on form!

muncher two SA Conference trophies is far better than anything any other SA franchise has achieved in the last year.

I do agree as I have said often enough that Coetzee is not a great coach. Nor is our top management any good either.

Beeno keeping it real.