Skinstad for Teichman….Roos for Vermeulen a familiar debate

….the interesting thing is some of those who were incensed at the Teichman decision, may be on the other side of the Roos debate. Even though the Skinstad call was far clearer. It’s all pretty objective.

I liked Nienaber’s answer, we have invested in Wiese and Roos has to make his case consistently. In other words the close call goes to the incumbent.

And by the way, I think Vermeulen’s recent input is being under appreciated. That one run which ended  Barrett’s match  happens several times a game….there was a lot of lineout ball and several crucial turnovers. Still our best test number 8 by far,

Roos is a very big hypothetical. I haven't seen anything remotely definitive from him. Wiese has done very, very well, and is not being rewarded. We have a replacement for Thor, but Roos seems to be the new flavour of the day Damian/Lambie/Goosen/Pretorius/Steph. Wiese is the only Bok to register in any statistical category. We don't have one single player who gets us over the gainline like he does. What I most appreciated about him was how he improved each test. He is showing an aptitude for learning that many, many Boks never show in their entire lives. Why discard that? The bloke was dumped into a Lions series and didn't drown. The man has some mettle . 

Yes it wasn’t an easy start….any mistake could have lost the Lions series. He looks promising and looks a good age to be peaking at the next WC.

Wiese was patchy in one Lions test; for every good thing, he did something bad. He got much better though, and was the only Bok to guarantee front-foot ball when we were, quite frankly, being bossed like little girls on the gainline. He is rock solid in all areas. People talk about Roos like he is a sure thing to better that; he isn't. This already looks like another painful lesson to be learned by the plastiks. Wiese and Kwagga have been far and away our best loose forwards.  Wiese is far more than dumb muscle. As per penalties? Here are the facts:

I have seen candy floss against lots of very, very poor defending. I haven't seen one game, clip etc where Roos has faced anything close to what Wiese has excelled against . He looks average. 

One of Nic Mallet's biggest errors was replacing Gary with Bobby too.soon. The late Alvin Skinstad (Bobby's dad) used to be my doctor in Kloof and he said so too...just too young to captain the Boks. Both were outstanding number eights but Gary was a far better captain. I believe later even Nic admitted his error. It is not exactly a good comparison between Vermeulen/Wiese and Roos. A very much different scenario. Gary was not exactly spent when he was replaced.

This stupid oversight did a lot of damage to team spirit and we lost our mojo for some time. 

Seb

The replacement  of Teichman was a huge error made by Mallett and he afterwards admitted he made a mistake.   The problem was that there was a breakdown in communication between Mallett and Teichman - which had nothing to do with rugby performance.    Fact is Teichman claim that in the off-season of the Springboks there was no communication between the coach and the captain - confirming that breakdown.    There was no agitation in the media  about the issue and no public debate before the change were made - so the topic in this thread is based on a farce anyway.

In the case of Vermeulen age became an issue and he this year did not play for the Springboks because of injury and that is often the case   with aging players - they are more subject to injury  and their performances decline.   Vermeulen in 2019 played top rugby - is that still the case?   Definitely not.        

Skinstad was never going to captain the side, it was Joost. A lot of the problems of 1999 were attributed to Skinstad, where in reality there were far deeper issues. We simply fell behind the advancements in the game. It wasn't until Jake that we began to catch up, at test level. Nick was unable to adapt and the second half of his tenure he won 11 of 22 tests (50%). We lost 29-19 to Wales with Teichmann, as well as 28-0 to New Zealand. The wheels were coming off. 

Wiese has succeeded against the British Lions, Argentina, Australia and New Zealand. Who has Roos faced, and at what level? Here's the hard part: Think before you speak. 

Dave

What do you expect from the Kindergarten Idiot - he is a total rugby ignorant with n advance level of prejudice thrown in as well.   Mozart raised an issue that is a problem as well.    There wer no media reports on the issue of replacement of Teichmann at the  time and why h came up with that story is really amazing. 

I myself was not really all that impressed with Wiese at all - he suffers from ill-discipline  which means he is more or less on par with the blunt rugby idiot KI.   When he says a player is top class - be aware he is probably sub-par on international level.   

Dan was not better than Wiese, Jean-Luc is not even close to Dan. But what should I expect from flubs who couldn't see past the likes of Damian, Willemse, Lood, Steph, Kolisi et al failing abysmally? 

AO, just a minute, posters would have a bit of respect for you if you did not elevate yourself to a Mr Know All.

You ofcourse are entitled to your opinions just like anybody else is entitled but what delusion is in your brain to think yours are superior to every body else, including people outside connected to rugby here, there and everywhere else.

You set yourself up as an authority, which clearly only you think so. That's delusional.

On one  hand, the  coaches are not panicking and just running through all of our options like we  did under Coetzee, but I also see they have become too conservative. Lots of great  talent left out. 

Tyrone Green is another who is playing out of his skin for Harlequins, either  creates or  scores tries, but we are stuck with  Willemse that  is completely out  of  form. 

I like the  look of Roos, maybe the right call not to include him, yet, but  hopefully he can continue this season and make the squad next year. 

Rassie and co need to stop being sentimental, evolve their game and use the talent we have

Schreuder is fundamentally more sound than all our other 9s. His super rugby production is by far the best. This is why you always lose Unteromlett, you never do your homework. 

Kwagga and Wiese were the only two Bok forwards who could breach the defence consistently. They were also big on defence. We already know that Wiese's near 100% defence isn't good enough for you.

As for 13? I endorsed Am as our best 13 and I did it before anyone else here spoke of him being a Bok. You were still hung on Kriel. 

Mapoe was our clear #2 at 13. I've never ever said he was our best 13. You lie a lot Unteromlett. Then, look at the company you keep. 

It is  really sound to see  how  well  Seb described the nit wit Kindergarten Imbecile on site.   And the response were weird.    Anybody who claims he knows more about rugby than coaches and players worldwide  is a weirdo and an imbecile as well.    The man has no idea about player performances and matter of fact a distortion of what the game actually entails.an what happens during games.   That was why two coaches - were effectively fired by  SA rugby - and thereafter by the clubs they coached subsequently because of gross incompetence  - yet  the  Imbecile praise those two endlessly.    

Idiots decide on performance based on prejudice and if you follow the ideas of Mozart and his sidekick - the Springboks will by now probably be the number 10 rated rugby team in the world.         

I called Am long ago, you argued that Kriel was better in 2018. Only an idiot would play Am ahead of Kriel, the best 13 in world rugby! 

You flip-flop, but mostly flop. World-renowned! . Ja, sure. Where's the production bud. Go ahead and point it out. Little Kwagga was carrying into heavy traffic and doing damage. Steph was out wide and got wrecked by a wing. Ende. 

Well, copying and pasting stats from a website doesn't make you a rugby genius. Heck, Moffie posts stats sometimes when they suit whatever silly argument he's involved in . . . and what Moffie knows about rugby can be written on the back of a postage stamp in large block capitals using a very thick highlighter.

Ask Omlett where he ranks 2019 World Rugby player of the Year and RWC Player of the Tournament Pieter-Steph du Toit among South African loose forwards and then, after he says 17th, come back and tell me all about his great rugby knowledge.

PS Just don't mention the name Pat Lambie. It won't end well.

Dud Toit…..the man with the lowest win ratio as a Bok I have ever seen. Take the Lions series for example we were losing handily, then he departed and we won with a wide margin.

Whatever he does for the Boks….it’s not winning tests.

Steph, the player with the most missed tackles of every Bok since 2018 - at least, and ranks 29th of all top 30 SA ball carriers by volume. He also ranks 19th of all flanks in 2019. His production has never improved. In fact, his carries for the Boks are lesser than his carries at provincial level. Yes, this player is the best in the world. When asked to show where his production is, the plastics can never show it to you. I have shown many videos exposing his flaws and other breakdowns. Steph was supposedly the best in the world, yet Schalk, whose production in the same position utterly dwarfed that of Steph, was a liability playing in the fly-half position. This is literally how ignorant these people are. When they can't defend this nonsense they post childish threads insulting people. 

Kriel is a failure. At least you didn't go so far as to dub him "greatest since readmission". Am was far better than Kriel from the beginning. 

Yes, that's true, Steph really was 17th best. You say he isn't, then show me in what facet of play he is top 10 at anything. The floor is yours...