Smart Cheetahs fry the Sharks.

Willie Le Roux, Brussouw , Ebersohn constantly outplayed the vaunted Sharks stars. Strauss was massive and Coenie had a wonderful game in the loose. Would one choose Coetzee ahead of any of the Cheetahs loosies?

The only issues they had were at half back, where Francis showed fragility to the posts, and frankly in his general play. Van Zyl made many momentum stopping errors and countless passes along the deck.

For the Sharks their loosies were awful. Daniel bungled so many situations. Steph du Toit conceded penalties, blew try scoring chances and gifted the Cheetahs the game with the last interception. I hope posters can see why Meyer said he needs preparation.

And Lambie remains a machine to the posts and almost irrelevant in general play. How many matches is that without a try....I'm losing count.

Frankly it's concening for our rugby.....Plum has lost the plot and is now in talent destruction mode. Frans, Lambie and Kankan are much better players that this coach's efforts have revealed.

Mozart

I agree with you about the Sharks loosies.  They were terrible - the worst one by  a distance was Coetzee.   How many mistakes can be made by one person on the field.   I know I supported him in the past - but has given up on him.  His performances in Super 15 this year was on the whole extremely poor.  .

Just for your info - the best lossie today by some distance was Labuchagne - so he should actually be a serious consideration.   He took most line out balls for the Cheetahs as well - aside making most tackles as well.    I believe he is at this stage the player with the highest tackle count in Super 15 by some distance - Stranski confirmed that during the match today.   In any event his all-round game is way ahead of all the other loosies in SA..

Labuschagne's all around game is "way ahead" of all other loosies in SA?   No Ooom Maaik he is a very productive player in the Cheetahs pattern, but he wont feature in the confined, physical world of test rugby. In that world you need Alberts, Vermeulen and Louw. You don't need Coetzee and Labuschagne....and you don't need Steph trying to be a flank. He should be learning his trade as a lock. But what you are seeing out there is teams have now figured out Steph's lowered shoulder running style.....trying to eke out the last inch of the run....they are staying with the tackle and effectively stripping him.

Mozat

You are amazing - really so.  So a loose forwrd must be a semi-lock in your opinion.   Must only be able to move balls forward in trraffic a few meters  and do a minimmal number of tackles.    A player with the highest tackle count and the highest rated in Super 16 - competing against all the test loosies he played against - is not good enough for the Springboks.  

And there is nothing wrong with the Cheetahs style of rugby.   If you mean a loosie linking in and going with backline play is unacceptable - then that is one of the root causes for our poor performances  by both our back row players and our backlines.    To my mnd any loosie should not carry balls in traffice - he shoud also be a link for attacking rugby by the backline.   Unfortunately the idea of SA loosies are really limtited in that skill and I have never ever seen any loosie really serving as a link player that help to create space for backline players as well. 

Eeven the New Zealand locks do that - but our loosies are ony expected to make a few meters in traffic and retain possession.   For that matter they might as well be lock forwards.  Alberts is effectively a style of player that is more a lock than a loosie - slow and strong - can carry ablls in traffic for a few meters - but brings nothing else to the game.    I do not believe that we need ball carry forwards with capacity limited to that in any SA team.   After all the game has moved on and our rugby has not progressed signifiantly since the early 1990's

Schalk has always been a fine link....mostly because he plays to the ball so well, and has outstanding hands. Last year we missed that and replacing that capability is smart.

But not with Labuschagne. For all the open field linking a Bok flank is ever likely to do, there is ten times as much bruising cleaning out work to be done. Labuschagne is simply not physical enough.

For heaven sake man, dontcha think everybody else sees the runs and the high tackle count? It's no secret. What Meyer is saying in not picking him is exactly what I'm saying. And the total silence by all the other "experts" show they get it. You apparently don't.

Disagree, Steph du Toit had another big game, was powerful with ball in hand and good with those ruck clear outs. He is not a 7, but has the skills to fill in there.

Had that pass gone to hand in the dying minutes, we would have said it was a great touch.......small margins and the game was done by then anyway - he had to shift it wide to try create something. Steph du Toit was by far the best Sharks forward.

Jordaan had one good run, Bosman was again useless, Frans was far better when he came on. Lambie and Reinach solid enough. Coetzee, the Lions loan player looked good but that shoulder injury looked bad. 

Cooper was good and Coetzee was ok. For the rest the Sharks were predictably poor.

For the Cheetahs, Rhule, le Roux, v/Zyl, Coenie, Strauss, de Jager, Brussouw, Labascagne and v/d Walt was good.

Given the poor Sharks side chosen, I never gave them a hope in hell of winning. They will not win games with Bosman at 12, Ndungane on the wing, Viljoen at 15, Daniel at 8 and Franco at 5.

Steph lost balls in contact, conceded penalties, blew a try and donated a try. He had a poor game. That doesn't mean he isn't a great prospect, but the conditions and the Cheetahs harrying style exposed him. He needs more time.

 I never saw him lose a ball in contact, the only penalties conceded were when he took contact and those around him infringed. Which try did he blow? 

Disagree 100% he did not have a poor game

There was a clear overlap out left....and he turned inside. It was noted by the commentators. And when they come out,  the stats will bear out the penalty and the lost ball. And for heaven sake, Dave, that last pass wasn't even well done....he just lobbed it into Willie's hands. We can't have that....it was school boy stuff.

Had he not turned in the Sharks would not have scored, the Cheetahs had that covered. I dont recall him losing a ball in contact. He made metres every time he took contact, with the commentators commenting on his strength all game.

Disagree on that final pass, it was an attempt to shift the ball wide just before taking contact, the Sharks had to try spread it to create something from nothing. I have no issue with a player trying that when all is lost and a try needed to be scored to win it.

He did not stand out as he has done in previous games, but he certainly did not have a poor game. He was the best Sharks forward today, along with Cooper.

 At 6'8" he is way too big to be a loosie. He is simply not agile enough or quick enough off the mark. He is a promising young lock and should be learning his trade. This loosie stuff is not going to help the Sharks and is going to confuse his development. Whatever happened last  year playing the school boys is not relevant any more.

Lets be smart for once and keep a promising youngster in his correct position.

At least that's my view.

Saffex

The Sharks botched some try scoring opportunties in the match.  Probably the best two were when they -

*  were attacking with the backline in the Cheetahs 22  and Steyn broke inside with five players outside of him and only three defenders *representing an overlap of two players) in position to receive the ball - thus killing the whole attacking move; and

*  after the break by Jordaan to near the line and the only player who could get the ball was Reinach - with no player in position outside of him to pas the ball to.   

I think both were examples of real problems in the Sharks backline - there is constantly deficient follow-up and taking of wrong decieions by key players.   

Insofar as Du Toit is concerned - I agree with you about his performance and disagree about Mozart's interpretation.   Mozart suddenly finds agile enough as a reason for his statements.   He advocates that Alberts be considered at 7 - but since when is Alberts agile?  He constantly refer to Burger - but that was the way he played 6 years ago.   Burger has not played for 18 months in games - but in his last games in 2011 the agiliy was not really noticeable and he slowed down very much compared to his intitial performances.  

Incidentally - was Franco in fact playing?  If he did he did zilch on the field of play.

Oom Maaik you agree with Dave about his performance, which Dave called:  "another big game".

But then on another string you say: "  By the way Du Toit did not really distinguish himselef today - but at least he tried - I saw really nothing from the loosies and his lock partner."

Are you addled in the brain Maaik, a liar, or just argumentative?

The fact is Steph du Toit had a poor game, along with the rest of the Sharks pack. Here are his stats, bearing out what I said earlier:

So we see he was pretty ineffective running the ball, turned the ball over twice and conceded two penalties....he also missed a quarter of his tackles and conceded a try. I'm all for giving him a chance, but loosie is not where he should be playing. Let's be just a little demanding and not talk up a match losing performance, just because we like a player.

It makes a difference if a player is intercepted for the winning try. It reflects on his day at the office.

Du Toit at loosie for the Boks would be a NZ dream, much as Danie Rossouw was in RWC03.

Mozart

You love to quote stats when you try and discredit players - but ignore them when you don't want to credit players whom you do not rate.   I look at games and form my own opinion on them and their performances and only look at stats afterwards.

As far as I am concerned - I saw Du Toit as better than any other forwards of the Sharks - with the possible exception of Cooper.   The rest were all substandard.   I measured him against the Cheetahs loosies and players and their loosies were better.

Anyway - please go on with your idea about Labuschagne being a weakling compared to other players - you really are way off the mark in his case.   I am going to quote his stats for the past three games again - maybe you would learn something from that one - or better still - ignore them like is your normal in the case of players you try to discredit:-

Yestrday the playing conditions were very poor and not good for running and passing of the Ball - but Labuschagne in the three games he played in made 40 tackles and missed 3, While taking 15 line outs as well. He also has a better turnover record than any of the other players.

 I have been one wondering if Du toit could make a 7. The performance on Saturday has cast doubt on this.

The fact though with Bekker going who else besides Du Toit can better partner Etzebeth?

Louw, Vermuelen and Alberts are a great trio in certain conditions. But the quick, versatile and huge tackling Labbers must be considered if we are playing say the abs on the highveld. Here my loose trio would be Louw, Labbers and Vermuelen at 7. I pick Vermuelen ahead of Alberts because of higer work rate and better mobilty. He can also play for 80 minutes.

Folks must simply realise the sharks have been done in by injuries. Cheetahs fortunately not and ditto the bulle who look to be back to about full strength. You do not tend to beat better sides with top players out.  Only the Mighty Stormers can do that but even they struggle! 

Beeno

I agree wih you about the loosie combination.  Against slower playing teams like England I would pick Vermeulen, Elstadt and Louw as loosies.   Not Alberts unless he starts playing and prove that he can still be a factor.  Against the All Blacks, Australians and Argentinians I would pick Vermeulen, Labuschage and Louw.

I think that Plumtree made some crucial mistakes in team selection on Saturday - he should given the circumstances have played Daniel, Coetzee and Minnie and left Du Toit as lock.   That would have been a much better combination.

The oher thing that bothers me is Steyn at 12.  He botched the best try scoring opportunity the Sharks had yesterday - by not passing the ball when the Sharks were attacking and there were overlaps outside of him.   Here I agree with Mozart - Steyn at 12 is aa dead loss for any team who wants to play attacking rugby- he reads games badly at the best of times.  

 Steyn is not the same pl;ayer he was. Its all about attitude. He needs to decide if he wants to play rugby. These few setbacks for him in the sharks side could focus his mind.

We need to tweak the loosies depending on opposition and conditions. Ditto the hooker where we have the powerful Bissie and the bit more mobile but also excellent Strauss.

We have in fact so many loosies that yes Steph to spealise at lock. I felt EWtzebeth and bekker were out two best locks and was looking for a spot for Du Toit. But with Bekker going all that changes. SA were mad to allow this. Maybe we need a contingency fund built up to ensure top players are not poached by Japan.

The money spent on Jantjies and Taute could have been diverted Bekker.....different pockets I know. But Bekker should never have been lost....it will be two years before du Toit is at this level. 

 Maybe and maybe not. Jaque Fourie got R20 mllion for 2 years. 

I agree we should not have lost Bekker. However if he was offered a huge sum its may require more money than WP has? 

Very annoying. A plan has to be devised to stop top players going to Japan. Surely that is feasible. At least with NH players one still has access to them for the Boks. Next a plan to stop us having outstanding youngsters leaving and ultimately ending up playing for another country - harder to achieve.

Agreed Moz, Steph du Toit would never make a 7 as he is just too tall and bulky for the position. But its testament to his skill that coaches are happy to play him there if need be. He played really well there for the Baby Boks there last year, but that was in a ball carrying role.

I do however disagree that he had a poor game against the Cheetahs, but lets leave it at that