So at this point….what is our starting 15

I see Wiki lists 9 tries. Amazing how a simple stat gets botched. Still nobody lists 11 tries, 8 averages ESPN and Wiki. What’s your source Bosman’s mother?

history:

Did you compile that list of games -village stooge.   I looked at the list and it contains games De Allende did not play in - like the Durban test in 2015 when De  Villiers was on the field the whole time and the elderly bugged up badly.    He may be on the team bench list - but when  he does not play it is meaningless.    Go to Wikipedia and see what they have on De Allende as to Point scoring for the Springboks.     But that was not the main point I dealt with - you were wrong about the number of tries he scored anyway - you have invented concocted BS you blame on De Allende and Du Toit for years and lies aplenty as well.          

Did you compile that list of games -village stooge.   I looked at the list and it contains games De Allende did not play in - like the Durban test in 2015 when De  Villiers was on the field the whole time and the elderly bugged up badly.    He may be on the team bench list - but when  he does not play it is meaningless.    Go to Wikipedia and see what they have on De Allende as to Point scoring for the Springboks.     But that was not the main point I dealt with - you were wrong about the number of tries he scored anyway - you have invented concocted BS you blame on De Allende and Du Toit for years and lies aplenty as well.          

Did you compile that list of games -village stooge.   I looked at the list and it contains games De Allende did not play in - like the Durban test in 2015 when De  Villiers was on the field the whole time and the elderly buggered up badly.    He may be on the team bench list - but when  he does not play it is meaningless.    Go to Wikipedia and see what they have on De Allende as to Point scoring for the Springboks.     But that was not the main point I dealt with - you were wrong about the number of tries he scored anyway - you have invented concocted BS you blame on De Allende and Du Toit for years and lies aplenty as well.          

Did you compile that list of games -village stooge.   I looked at the list and it contains games De Allende did not play in - like the Durban test in 2015 when De  Villiers was on the field the whole time and the elderly bugged up badly.    He may be on the team bench list - but when  he does not play it is meaningless.    Go to Wikipedia and see what they have on De Allende as to Point scoring for the Springboks.     But that was not the main point I dealt with - you were wrong about the number of tries he scored anyway - you have invented concocted BS you blame on De Allende and Du Toit for years and lies aplenty as well.          

You seem a bit agitated, the fat, dirty thumb twitching? I have given you 3 sources, none of whom think Dud scored 11 tries. Hell of the 9 tries, 3 of them came against Canada, USA and Italy.

And with regard to Durban, De villiers played outside centre ….Dud was inside centre.   Wrong again.

Of Damian's 7 tries, how many weren't open line walk ins? One was a Kolisi break from where Damian should haven been, offloading to Damian for a walk in. Another was against the USA in 2015, another open line walk in. He another free run against Wales after a defensive blunder by the Welsh. There was another walk in. That's quite odd. A lethal finisher doesn't require such easy pickings to accumulate tries. Strip these away, and you have closer to 3 tries of at least moderate effort, though still none one could look to as having genius or skill. I never thought of Jean as a natural 12, but he was clearly talented. Lethal in his anticipation and reading of play, and a rock solid on defence. Damian is the perfect anti-Jean 

"Go to Wikipedia and see what they have on De Allende as to Point scoring for the Springboks. "

Ou Maaik, Wikipedia has DDA scoring 45 points for the Springboks in test matches. 45 / 5 = 9 which is exactly what Moffie posted.

Tell me ou Maaik, when you were at school (assuming you can still remember that far back) did you get higher marks in history or maths? I'd really like to know.

The ost important selections are 9 and the wings, in the backs. That's it. 13 to a slightly lesser extent. The rest are just there to shuffle the ball to a particular channel. We don't have one great 9 though. 

Esterhuizen is more powerful than Nonu, and totally dominated Kerevi. If Esterhuizen only was a media darling. Maybe if he were more blonde, dopey, and had blue eyes. Who knows. It doesn't really make sense. 

I should also add that prime Frans was more powerful than Nonu. Fourie smashed Nonu several times, once leaving him bloodied after being dumped on his backside. 

Just watching Kolbe against Glasgow. Everything he does is rugby smart….ranging from a brilliant 50/22, to setting up two tries. He sees the game. I much prefer him on the wing, but talent speaks out.

Two brilliant spot tackles on Consiliere(?). Steyn had a fine game as well.

Kolbe is a rugby player, the likes of Arendse et al are men who run fast. The latter really can't compare. 

I think Allende is another Steph Du Toit case. 

Mamparas here had a go at both players at the last RWC. To their horrow and deep embarrassment Du Toit was the World Rugby player of the year and Allende got heaps of praise.

With their long snouts severely out of jount they waged an unrelenting campaign against both players trashing them at every opportunity. In due course some weak minded posters jumped aboard the anti Du Toit /Allende train.

Group think took over and neither player could do a thing right. 

But more severe embarrassment followed as in 2022 Allende made three world team selections . 

Normal people with an ounce of integrity and self evaluation would stop and say hey maybe I am wrong about Allende. But not these hapless critics. They doubled down on stupid. IT'S HILARIOUS! BWAHAHAHAHAHA. 

Since 2014 no human on earth has been able to take any game and reference any great play from either Damian or Steph. The only thing the guppies have are "he says so, therefore it must be true". Mr Bean, you need to stop suckling at the teat of MSM. If you want to assert something, you need to review film. The problem there, however, is that you won't find great play from these two. 

Ja to moolaaa ............. Ma'a , he was da man.

I haven't watched too many Sharks mayched this season, but he didn't stand out at all...and I liked RJVR when he played for the Lions...he's good but no Nonu...Nonu was like the Lomu of centers...Hulk smash...RJVR is good but not great.

Moola, you have been around long enough to know better than to disregard what I say off-hand so easily. Fourie played 72 tests, and scored 32 tries, with try ratio of 44.4 and a win ratio of 72%. He was also one of the best defensive backs of all time. Taking into consideration that many of his best years were lost under Snor, when try-scoring was pre-dominantly done by forwards, and you can see quite clearly that Fourie was a better centre than both Smith and Nonu. In fact, his numbers place him at #3 all-time behind Gerber and Umaga. 

As for Esterhuizen, let's look at his tests against Australia in 2018 and 2019, when the Boks won. His brilliant tackle from the kick-off set-up the Dyanti intercept try which set the tone for the remainder of the test. Without Esterhuizen, the Boks don't win either test, and they don't win the abbreviated TN of 2019. His ability to create pressure on and off the ball. Esterhuizen is a far more powerful carrier than Nonu ever was, but he also adds deft skill. His close-quarter passing and offloading under pressure are hallmarks of his game. Nonu never had that, hence why Henry flirted with the one-dimensional Sonny Bill Will.i.ain't. Esterhuizen was never in any of his tests given front-foot ball. The Untermensch Erasputin saw to it that only the equally lacking retard Damian got front foot ball. It had always been clear that Esterhuizen was the better 12, and his ability to totally change the way the opposition plays, even in a subhuman gameplan, is beyond dispute. 

Frans was another who was never given a fair shot despite being the best 12 in SA for the years 2007 to 2017. That doesn't dismiss his ability. His skill level was higher than Nonu, and his physicality was higher too. Nonu was strong, but nowhere near Lomu level. In 2010 NZ tried tob send Nonu to attack Aplon along with Muliaina and So'oialo, and all three were dumped on their backsides. Nonu was good, he was far from being as dominant as being made out here. His try-scoring ratio was outside the top 10 all time and his defence was good for about 17th all time. 

When fantasy meets facts there are tears. Here's a hanky Moola. 

Hell bent? Are you getting a little flustered Moola? I'm just stating facts. Fourie's record is good for #3 overall. Nonu is hovering around 10th at best. André has never had Erasputin open the game up for him. He has never had front foot ball to work with. Yet, he still outperformed Damian regardless. The man has immense talent. His offloads and assists at Super rugby Level outclasses that of Nonu. The best centre pairing in world rugby would be Esterhuizen and Am. 

Honestly that try against Wales was all on Biggar. He tried to stand up Dud and possibly strip him….somewhere in Dud’s brain the tractor switch flipped. So he he just went on tractoring. 

Normally when he does this an opposing loosie trots up and puts an end to it. But in this case it was pretty much Biggar’s tackle to make, there was no immediate support.

I’m guessing nobody was more surprised than Dud when he found himself over the line.. There was no pace, no step, no hand off…a simple low tackle would have stopped the whole thing. Backs can’t go high when they are the last line of defense close to the line.

Fast forward to the final, and Damian had a shocker, blowing a great move by Willie to break out for a good chance of a try. It revealed his inability to read play, or to have any kind of feel for the flow of basic movement. You don't have to read individuals when play flows like that. A good pro should instinctively pick up the movement, like the rest of the Boks did! Damian just doesn't have the capacity to read play, or instinctively feel things out. After ten years on the scene, you think he'd have developed something, but he looks as awkward today as he did in his early years! I have never seen anything quite like it in any sport. I suppose the closest would be some of the poor QBs in the NFL, but they have superior analytics, so those kinds of players are found out quite early. 

Well Moola, point out this quality possession that he had... 

Great  post Plum….guys like Arendse, Kolbe, Habana, Aplon are unique. Small men who are brilliant open field tacklers and almost impossible to defend one on one. We have never played to those strengths, except to use them on turnover ball.

Arendse is good in freely given space. His defending was creaky. The others are certainly special players. Kolbe punches above his weight. Aplon was a freak if nature for his size. Comfortably manhandled Nonu, Rocokoco, Muliaina, and So'oialo. New Zealand really went after him, and he dumped them. We never got the most out of him sadly. We need smarter wings. These smaller men like Kolbe and Aplon can punch above their weight, but they were smart. That's what really made them. Look at Mvovo, he had all the hardware and could have been the next Habana. He was a terrible disappointment. The best Bok wings are cunning, daring, hardy, and cerebral, and with good work ethic.