15. Lambie / Ludik
14/11. JP / Habana / Rhule / Mapoe
13/12. JJ / Taute / Jordaan / Whitehead / F.Venter
10. Jantjies / Fouche / Grant
9. Hougaard / Pienaar / Groom
1/3. Jannie / Beast / Kitshoff / Malherbe / M. v/d Merwe
2. Strauss (c) / Chiliboy / Fourie
4/5. Etzebeth / Bekker / Flip / Steph du Toit / JA Marais
6/7/8. Vermeulen / Louw / Alberts / Coetzee / Daniel / CJ Stander / A. Botha
The big misses are Frans, Goosen, v/Zyl, Coenie, Bismark, Steph du Toit, Elstadt , Brussouw and Kolisi
Well I see we have lost Kirchner, Greying, Potgieter and Strauss among the guys you were frantically punting earlier. But sadly we still have proven failures JJ and Taute as our likely centres....Jantjies at flyhalf, Bressler at lock and a bunch of other disasters.
In short you learned nothing from our defeat against NZ.
Their is 37 players in the squad. What is the maximum that can tour, 30 or 25?
Unless their is b-team games, is their b-team games on the tour?
I think Lambie would be wasted at 15. We have lots of players that could play fullback including JP Pieterson or Habana or lots of the other wings. JP started his carreer for the Sharks as a fullback and has played a few games for the boks at fullback. His kicks are not great but everything else is good. Habana has a good boot on him although he rarely uses it, probably because he rarely gets given the ball.
I reckon Taute would be better at the back than at center. Peter Grant has lost his ability to play attacking rugby, and may be the cause of the woeful backline display on attack by the Stormers. Peter Grant is good at kicking for poles but his touch finders are short, I could possibally throw the ball further than his touch finders.
Good one Moz, one would swear the AB's humiliated us - get a grip.
Yes to JJ and Taute as centres, well one of them at 13, with Whitehead at 12.
Jantjies ahead of the useless Morne anyday
Bresler has been bloody impressive all season and no my locks are Etzebeth and Bekker, with Flip on the bench.
Josh Strauss is lost to Bok rugby, he aims to qualify for Scotland - otherwise he would have been my Bok captain.
Am a Kirchner fan, but am going for the younger Ludik who has had an outstanding season. Greyling was a squad selection a year or so ago, but Kitshoff and Marcel v/d Merwe have proven to be far better this year - its called progression. Potgieter - you have me mistaken with someone else. I'd be happy with Dewald Potgieter in the squad.
My squad beats the crap out of the rubbish you would come up with - if it was down to you we would have de Jongh at 13, Jean at 12, Morne at 10, Bakkies at 4 and Joe at 8 - talk about progressive!!!
There is no restriction on the number and yes I think there are midweek games.
There is no alternative to Morne as he should not be in the equation at all - he has been an insult all season so why would any coach want him back - how stupid that would be,
Jantjies has been in great form and must start at 10, Lambie is a must at 15 and needs to be retained there to make the position his own
Saffex
You have a fixation with some players that showed nothing and frequently disgraced themselves in the Super series and CC this year. Amongst the bad apples in your squad is Engelbrecht - a disaster on CC level comprehensively out played in most CC games - and Jantjies - the POMS will make him look the disaster he is in reality. I said elsewhere I almost wish that Meyer gives Jantjies a chance at flyhalf - despite the disaster he was in the second half against the All Blacks - even the players themselves cut him out of contention by not passing the ball to him in the last 30 minutes of that game. That would be the final nail in the coffin insofar as he is concerned, I never saw his great form that you constantly refer to. What I did see was that when he was out - the Lions backline played better rugby. Even though I am against Morne - I would not replace him with Jantjies at all - too much of a gamble. Stranski summed it up neatly - Jantjies plays a manufactured game - he has in other words no real ball sense.
Fouche - blaas my siel - a poor replica of Morne Steyn - a very poor one at best. He was a key to the disfunctional backline of the Bulls in the CC competition.
Incidentally - I think our future scrummie will be Reinach - especially since Hougaard is not a scrummie at all. Vermaak is miles ahead of Hougaard as well and so is Pretorius..
Of the centers mentioned only one player showed anything really good in the Super series and CC and that is Jordaan. Engelbrecht showed nothing - Venter is mediocre - Whitehead pedestrian. The only one that really should be given another chance is Taute.
Amongst the forwards I do no have anything really problematic. Elstadt is not out - I rate him a hell of a lot higher than Potgieter. Du Toit is playing for the Sharks at Under 21 - level and is playing like he real chanp there. Top class for the future.
Mike you sound like Moz when it comes to certain players. All I can say is that you are speaking complete and utter crap when it comes to JJ. I have watched all his CC games and since his return to 13 he has been spot on. Love his balanced running, always looks to beat his man - he was good on Sat.
What Stransky said, was that Jantjies ignited the Lions backs when he came on - you really have no idea do you - Jantjies is the opposite to manufactured, he plays on instinct - ala Quade Cooper and is great.
Watch this kid next S15 in the Stormers side, he is going to thrive in good company.
Hougaard has to play 9 end of - he is one of the best 9's in the game and completely lost on the wing - Meyer will eventualy wake up to this fact.
Venter has been great for the Bulls at 12 and looks a great prospect. Whitehead was the best SA 12 in the S15 by some distance - he is anything but pedestrian - you clearly dont have a clue do you?
Saffex
You probably miss that one - but Stranski - when interviewed about flyhalf play - said that Jantjies is not a natural ball player - he plays a manufactured game. Plays on instinct - my ass.
You obviously missed the game where JP Du Plessis played the fool with Engelbrecht. I believe he is no real center - he should play on the wing.
Venter at 12 - that really is a lot to ask for - what has he done for the Bulls backline that was totally disfunctional in the CC games at all?
Hoygaard at 9? It was a disaster in the earlier tests this year - and can only repeat itself if he is re-selected to play in the England environment.
Lastly - I am all for younger players in the team - but then they must have the ability to perform on Super Series level - or better still on international level. The following players mentioned by you - failed badly:-
Engelbrecht, Venter, Whitehead, Jantjies and Fouche - the latter never played on higher elvel - but was mediocre on CC level (a bad clone of Morne Steyn)
Not a bad team Saffex, not sure about the flyhalfs, Fouche is not my preferred choice and still need some mental strength, he fluffed quite a few games for the bulls this season.
Meyer will probably go for safety as he will be desperate to end the season on a high and select players such as De Villiers to the lead the team and bring in Juan De Jongh.
I would defenately start investing in JP Du Plesis, he is a geniune 13 that can play 12 and in the same mould as the type of centers meyer likes. I would almost use him at 12 and bring in Jordaan.
If they are not starting and there are some dirt track matches during the week I would opt to go for a youthful team with a bunch of youngsters. The tour is long enough and we could end the tour with these youngsters if everything go well.
Necessar ycorrections to snapster mixed bag of selections
15. Taute / Ludik
14/11. JP / Habana / Rhule / Mapoe
13/12. Jordaan / Jean capt/ De Jong/Whitehead
10. Morne/ Lambie. Jantjies
9. Hougaard / Pienaar / Reinach
1/3. Jannie / Beast / Kitshoff / Malherbe / M. v/d Merwe
2. Strauss (vc) / Liebenberg / Fourie (Have to have a strong scrummaging hooker snapster and Liebenberg is the man)
4/5. Etzebeth / Flip/ Bekker / Bresler / Kruger
6/7/8. Vermeulen / Louw / Alberts / Coetzee / CJ Stander / A. Botha
The big misses are Frans, Goosen, Coenie, Bismark, Steph du Toit, Elstadt , Brussouw and of course the mighty Burger.
Nice balance of youth and experience. Who has been left out? Anyhow a big improvement on snapsters squad.
Mike as I said you know stuff all about what constitues a good centre. Yes I saw du Plessis vs JJ and it amounted to nothing......both quality 13's. The two best breaks by SA outside centres have come from JJ and JP this year - thats all I need to know.
Jantjies playing a manufactured game is the biggest load of crap I have heard in years - what is a manufactured game by the way?
How exactly did Hougaard fail at 9 and what exactly has Pienaar done that is better - kick? Their service is equal and one cannot even begin to compare their attacking and defensive qualities. I still want to know what Hougaard did that was so poor? Its all just complete bullshit - he got charged down once or twice against England - so what
Kingcorn - if Meyer goes back to playing it safe and calls on Morne, Jean and de Jongh, we will lose to England. Am with you on du Plessis, I'd be happy to see him in the mix.
Beenkop - forget Taute at 15, he will and must stay at 13. Forget past it Jean, he has been useless all year and done nothing as a captain. de Jongh is not physical enough for test rugby and has been bog ordinary all year. Lambie has to stay at 15 as he is the only real class act we have there. Goosen will be our 10 for years to come with Jantjies as the back-up. Lambie needs to make 15 his own and settle in that position only, instead of being shifted every bloody week. Reinach looks a good prospect, but I think Groom might have more zip. Liebenberg is an insult of a test player, should never have won a single test cap. Chiliboy is twice the player. Jeandre Kruger is not physical enough for test rugby - wake up, you kept banging on about Matfield, this guy is less physical. We have some class young locks to invest in forget Kruger. Daniel is a must as he gives us variety as does Fourie amongst the forwards. Your additions are crap - I'll go with my side thanks
Lambie's best position is Flyhalf and NOT fullback. Lambie's big asset is a cool mind and ability to assess a game. Very glad he is back at flyhalf and hopefully he will settle down there. Sense has prevailed at last.
So with Lambie at flyhalf who at fullback. To me its out of Taute and Ludik on this tour. To be honest I am not certain that Ludik will do much better than Kirchner but his form warrants him getting a shot - we shall see. Ludik does not look to me to be a top notch player that will give you an edge in a tough test.
Reinach seems to me to have more zip than Groom but I hope you are right abou the WP boy. How you can harp on about JJ as a center is a bit odd given he has done zip. I would actually go for Du Plessis before him. Wonder if Meyer will call him up but it is probably too early for that just yet.
Chilli boy had been a dud and you know it. Liebenberg is far better. Juandre is not by any means my ideal lock and I would have picked Elstdat had he been fit. Juandre had a reasonable game agains the abs in Dunedin. Our two locks rtight now are Etzebeth and Flip with Bekker on the bench. And NO snapster Juandre is far more physical than wee matfield!!!!! - the most unphysical lock ever to play for the Boks.
Deon Fourie and Coetzee provide the pacey loosies fo rme. Daniel disappears in top flight company. How many times has this already happened. Its a pity but thats the way it is. The only time I can see him doing well is if we play a seven man pack with Daniel playing as an extra back - because that is what he is.
Anyhow Snapster lets see what Meyer does. What troubles me is that some guys need a break or how will they go next year. This central contracting is a huge issue which can explain the extent of injuires and falling away of form etc.
Re Liebenberg - just bear in mind NH scrumming is tough. Liebenberg is a strong scrummager. The Stormers scrum is fine when he is there but when he depparts it is not so good. I am wondering how we will go agains t the Lions with that small black hooker - very pacy but small. Big test for him.
Nice to see you back snapster - you sure aint no fence sitter!
Beenkop try think outside the tank then, its easy......if Jeandre is not ideal, select a promising youngster to go on tour as they will be involved in the dirt tracker side - plenty to choose from in JA Marais, Steph du Toit, Willemse, Bullbring, Quin Roux etc and no you cant be that stupid to play Flip and Etzebeth in the same side, both are average line-out jumpers who could not operate at 4 in the line-out.
As for Liebenberg, he is useless, not test standard at all - too stupid for a start, concedes far too many penalties. Chiliboy is twice the player. Visagie, Fourie and Burden are all better options than Liebenberg - like Morne, this guy should never have won a test cap, another is Pat Cilliers.
JJ is a quality rugby player and better than JP du Plessis who I also rate.
Bullshit re Lambie at 10 - that is just a stupid decision and again points to your short sightedness.
Who is going to be the Bok incumbent at 10 for years to come - Goosen. Given this fact, would it therefore not be logical to invest in Lambie at 15 or are you too stupid to pick up on this fact?
Feel free to argue the contrary
-Saffex
If there is somebody that knows what flyhalf play on international level entails - it is Stransky. I would rather believe him about Jantjies. Let me explain the meaning of "manufactured". Jantjies has been told to play a passing game - so he passes the ball all the time - withoit any insight as to the result of the pass at all. Since he normally runs a few paces sideways before he actually passes - most of his passes are in fact hospital passes.
He never tries to attack himself in an effort to create space for outside players.
What in effect happens in his case is that he has NO BALL SENSE. He passes and kicks balls - without relizing what the effect of passing and kicking would be.
Aside from that he has serious defence defficiencies and is a bad joke under a high ball when under pressure.
I wish Meyer would pick him as a flyhalf - after the resultant disaster the clamour for his selection would be out of the window. Really the best description and name for him will be Earl Jantjies - nothing better than Earl Rose.
He will inevitably end up as a good goalkicker - much like Morne Steyn - although the latter is a better defender than Jantjies will ever be. Under pressure he will also miss kicks at goal - like happened in the test against the All Blacks.
Now as to Hougaard. If you miss his poor passing and lack of vision and poor decision-making in the tests mentioned - you must really be totally blinded as to his defiiciencies. It was not only the charge down kicks - but the other kicks he used. Totally ineffective and useless - best example of aimless kicking - for the benefot of the opposition team. This Meyer probanly saw and he realised that Hougaard does not play an efficient scrummie game - hence his moving him away from scrummie.
Since his poor perforrnaces in the earlier tests - Meyer used Pienaar - a natural scrummie - in that position. In the wet conditions in England - he is not going to use Hougaard, who was particylarly bad in wet conditions in PE in the third POM test.
Let me add something - you keep on dismissing Jordaan - the only young center that performed consistently well in Super 15 and in CC games. He is streets ahead of Engelbrecht and Whitehead and can also play at 12 - better than Whitehead in that position. I would much rather play a player with better all-round abilities and better ball sense in center position and Jordaan has all that as a player. Whitehead on international level - what a joke.
Mike please dont make it up - there is nothing wrong with Hougaards service at all, its as good as any 9 out there - FACT. Hougaard was awesome last year as the Bok 9, why all of a sudden would he be poor.
The fact that Meyer has cocked up by moving him to 9 goes hand in hand with Meyers crap Bok record to date. Meyer and the likes of you are too stupid to realise that Hougaard is an attacking weapon at 9 in the Joost mould, Meyer should have invested in him instead of discarding him to the wing and completely wasting him.
Meyer and the Boks will not move on until Hougaard is returned to 9, Morne is discarded for good and Jean is put out to pastures.
I rate Jordaan highly, but JJ, JP and Taute are better options at 13. I have reservations about Jordaan on a physical level as a test 13 and would therefore look at playing him on the wing.
As for Whitehead, you clearly do not know what you are talking about shock, shock. The guy made more breaks at 12 in the S15 than any other SA 12 - FACT. Sadly got injured but on form was by far our best 12.
Jantjies is one of our most gifted rugby players we have. His failing at times is that creativity - he plays it like Quade Cooper - at times he is too flash for those around him. Thats why I want to see him playing for the Stormers next season, he is going to kick some serious arse.
You are a typical conservative SA'n who frowns on creativity and players that are different. This kid adds something different to the equation, much like Schalk Brits and Daniel........SA just does not know how to embrace players like these guys - had they been Kiwi's, Aussies or Frenchmen they would have thrived
I have consistently said the same thing about Jantjies....he has no feel, passing inside when the space is outside....kicking when he should run....grubbering when he should find touch. This lack of feel means he can't control the game.
Whitehead is way too slow and not physical enough. His asset portfolio won't stand up in tests.
Schalk Brits and Daniel both had their chances, they didn't deliver....too small.
Taute is no centre.Jj can't defend. And Hougaard had many chances this year....he never turned in one convincing scrummie display.
You will deny al this, but these are generally accepted facts.
I am not sure about Jantjies. He has some good patches in the game, in others he plays like Quade Cooper on a drunken night out, given his option taking (e.g. a kick when their is an overlap etc).
Damn right I wont accept it for the results speak for themselves. Until we start winning 85% of our matches with the likes of Pienaar at 9, Morne at 10 and Jean at 12 or 13 I wont change my tune. With these guys playing we will never smell 85%
Hougaard never failed this year and thats my point. He had a few charge downs - so bloody what. Pienaar replaced him and has been no better at all. Hougaard gives us clout at 9, like no other 9 - not even close. If he never turned in a convincing display at 9, then what the hell is Jean still doing in the side as a centre.
Taute has played 13 all his life and is playing there again this weekend, so bang goes your warped take on his centre credentials - he had a great test at 13 against Oz, a missed tackle against NZ, big deal.......give him 10 tests at 13 and if he then fails then we can talk.
Same applies to JJ, the lad is lovely balanced runner and if Jean defensively can play test rugby as a centre then JJ will walk it. JJ has no issue technique wise - like JP, he is learning the art of having to defend at 13. For the record he has not missed a single tackle at 13 for the Bulls this CC - the lad has stepped up.
What nonsense re Daniel and Brits getting chances. Brits had a handful of tests in a poor Bok side and Daniel had one start out of position at 8, no wonder he failed.
Sadly neither were ever utilized effectively. Both are impact players who should have won many caps playing off the Bok bench. Sadly good old consevative SA'ns are too preoccupied with size and Jake was too stupid to invest in the sublime qualities Brits brought to the game. There was always a place for a 100kg hooker who could run like a centre playing off the bench.
Hell I would have grabbed a player like him as I would Daniel now as a squad Bok
Whitehead weighs 95kg, is no slower than Jean, Frans, Nonu, SBW, McCabe, Olivier and the likes, so bullshit on that front
Yes Shark, Jantjies will do the odd stupid thing, but fact is he ignites his outside backs, his kicking out of hand is better than Morne's and his goalkicking is way up in the % stakes. Most impressive is how he has stepped up defensively.
Truth is he has always played in the company of an average side in the Lions and still manages to stand out, much like Taute has. Its going to be great seeing him play for the Stormers next season - for then he will be in the company of class acts and the kid will thrive.
He is blessed with silky skills, has a great touch......the trick is get those around him to tune in - the same applies to Cooper. Cooper has thrown in the towel as Deans has sought to quash that free spirit as he did the Beale.....Deans like many SA supporters is incapable of embracing talents like Cooper, Beale, Jantjies and co.
I see the same in what Meyer has done to Hougaard, the way he discarded JJ Engelbrecht and Jantjies and his under utilization of Lambie. Meyer is conservative - he would much rather stick with Pienaar, Morne and Jean...............conservative will never win you matches in the modern rugby age
Mozart
I often disagree with you about players - but you have in fact given a 100% description about Stranski when he was asked about the abilities of Jantjies. Saffex waxes lyrical about Jantjies - but has he done anything to justify the praiise singing?
I think the Springboks in the All Backs test saw right through him and in 50 minutes passed the ball to him give times - and since he flyffed the first four efforts - they basically ignored his existence for the rest of the game. Saffex must be blind if he did not see that. However, despite that Saffex insisted that he played well in the test against the All Blacks - that is stretching it hugely.
Saffex
The best break by any center this year was not by Engelbrecht or Taute. Obviously you did not watch the Supeer series final - that break by Jordaan was miles ahead of anything Engelbrecht or Taute made.
Let ne go further - the Bulls this year LOST 5 out of 10 CC games. . They manage to get into the semi with a positive point difference of 11 points. It was negative up to the last game against the Lions. Theur backline play was pathetic - yet your recommenned three backline players - that failed miserably - to be included in the touring squad. That really is unbelievable.
I will lay you a bet - Engelbrecht was so bad in a hopeless Bulls backline in CC that Meyer will NOT select fim for the Tour. In any event - we will see what Jordaan does to him this weekend. He will run circles around Engelbrecht - same as JP Du Plessis did in the WP game at Newlands - but Jorfaan is a better center than Du Plessis and the result wou;d be worse.
I do believe Taute can develop into a better center - but he will not be good enough without further development. Hopefully Nienaber can teach him defensive skills - if he does go too WP - and hopefilly he would learn that trying to run over opposing players really does not work. Inventiveness does - and Taute is deficient in that regard at this stage,
Mike as I keep saying you know stuff all about what consitutes a good centre. Yes I saw Jordaan's break, it was good, but JJ's and JP's was better - FACT
Stop speaking complete crap re JJ and this CC - he had a good game on Sat so what the hell you on about - lying about his performance carries no weight at all.
I dont give a toss about Meyers call on players, his selections to date have been poor, much like his results so why should I be swayed by his choices. My bet is he will select the useless Morne to start the tests - watch this space
Saffex
I DO NOT want Morne in the team - or anywhere near it. I also think that De Villiers should go - but really we need players that can contribute to the team - not those that cannot even perform satisfactorily on CC level.
Engelbrecht had a reasonable game on Saturday after serial flops the rest of the CC games. I saw him breaking the line ONCE this year in all the CC and Super series games he played in gaining circa 15 meters - followed by a Maul. Not effective at all. If he made the break and managed to off-load the ball effectively - all credit to him - but the effect of that break was zero..
In any event - I think that Taute can make the grade and I would not like to see him dropped from the squad.
The problem with the players you mentioned are that they really do have the physique - but they lack in implementation of creative play. That applies to all those in the Bulls backline this year specifically. You no doubt will blame Morne Steyn - yet in the CC games he played outside Fouche - whom you want in the team - who is worse than Morne by a mile.
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