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FORUM / RUGBY /  Statistical data on centres for Bok team.

Statistical data on centres for Bok team.

Started by biltongbek21 REPLIES352 VIEWS· 04 Dec 2014, 12:32
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biltongbek
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biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
04 Dec 2014, 12:32
#1
04 Dec 2014, 12:32#1

I have taken the Super XV season and collated the player data that I collected from SANZAR website.


I am basically looking at Defensive capabilities, Distribution, and Attack.


First the defensive stats.


NAMECOMPLETEDMISSEDT/O WONSUCCESSJJ ENGELBRECHT12213690%JAN SERFONTEIN13720687%PAUL JORDAAN8117783%DAMIEN DE ALLENDE7917582%FRANS STEYN122331479%JUAN DE JONGH5920475%



Attacking stats.


PLAYERMETERSCARRIESDBCBJJ ENGELBRECHT286561112JUAN DE JONGH376892714JAN SERFONTEIN396114253DAMIEN DE ALLENDE6611163513PAUL JORDAAN26541109FRANS STEYN322105172


Distribution stats.


PLAYERPOJJ ENGELBRECHT252JUAN DE JONGH378JAN SERFONTEIN5811DAMIEN DE ALLENDE4813PAUL JORDAAN243FRANS STEYN12813


Turn overs conceded


PLAYERTCJJ ENGELBRECHT17JUAN DE JONGH13JAN SERFONTEIN19DAMIEN DE ALLENDE19PAUL JORDAAN11FRANS STEYN31



Then I worked the stats per carry. You first have meters per carry, then defenders and clean breaks per carry, then how many carries to concede possession, then success rate in defence, then carries per pass, and lastly caries per offload.


PLAYERM/CC/DB CBC/TCC/PC/OJJ ENGELBRECHT5,12,43,32,228,0JUAN DE JONGH4,22,26,82,411,1JAN SERFONTEIN3,54,16,02,010,4DAMIEN DE ALLENDE5,72,46,12,48,9PAUL JORDAAN6,52,23,71,713,7FRANS STEYN3,15,53,4 0,88,1
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biltongbek
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biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
04 Dec 2014, 12:44
#2
04 Dec 2014, 12:44#2

Paul Jordaan, Damien de Allende and JJ makes the most meters per carry.


Paul Jordaan, Juan du Jongh and Damien de Allende beat defenders and make clean breaks more often. 


JJ Engelbrecht and Jan Sefontein are the best defenders.


Juan de Jongh, Jan Serfontein and Damien de Allende loses possession the least.


JJ offloads by far the least, in fact it is almost never.


Frans Steyn makes the most passes, but we have to consider half his games are at 10.



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clevermike
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Dec 2014, 14:35
#3
04 Dec 2014, 14:35#3
 Biltongbek
Excellent work done and the results are most interesting.  As you ppointed out there were some variations in possitional playthat could impact on the data:-
*   Francois  Steyn played circa half of his games at flyhalf;*   De Allende played circa half of his gmes at wing;*   Jordaan was pushed around aternating playing at outside and at inside center
However, be it as it may there aare interesting pointerss in the data  provided by you:-
Tackle Situation
I have serious problems in the case where the missed tackle ratio of  backline players exceed 20% - as was the case with S teyn (21%) and De Jongh (25%).  Problem was that this is not a new phenominon.   De JOngh's missed tackle ratio last year was 23% - this year it is even worse at 25%.   
In the case of players on the wing there is a tnendency that players who chase kicked balls have a slightly higher chance to miss tackles when teams counter-attacked.  That could account for the slightly higher missed tackle ratio of De Allende compared to the other players. with lower than a 20% missed tackle ratio.
Ball Carries
Another aspect that in a way indicates the effectiveness of players making ball carries  is the average distance per carry gaied by players.    Using the data  probvided by you - the situation is as follows:-
D DE ALLENDE      -      661  -  116    =    5,68
JJ ENGELBRECHT     -    286  -  56     =    5,19JUAN DE JONGH     -     376  -  89      =   4,22JAN SERFONTEIN   -      396  -  114    =   3,47FRANCOIS STEYN  -      322  -  105    =    3,06

I alsohaave some serious reservations about th ability of especially Francois Steyn insofar as Clean Breaks are concerned.   That rlates to the number of balls caried compared to the number of clean breaks made:-
JJ ENGELBRECHT     -    56    -  12     =   4,6 
JUAN DE JONGH     -     89   -   14     =   6,4
D DE ALLENDE      -      116   -  13     =   8.9
JAN SERFONTEIN   -     114   -    3     =   38
FRANCOIS STEYN  -     105   -    2     =    52,5
In relation to the above - a player like Steyn made 1 clean break every 52,5 times he carrie a ball.   
Turnovers conceeded
Does the above include the number of epnalties given away?   I hope not - because then th figures of some players would even look worse.   One of my major problems wih  Steyn is that he gave away more possession turnovers than most of the others if you combine the data of two of them.  
Tries scored 
To fill up the overall picture it would eb interesting to know how many tries were scored by the players concerned
Summary
The above stats largely confirm my serious reservations about Steyn at center - also at flyhalf - too poor in defense and showed minimal attacking abilities.   The other player I have serious reservations about  is De Jongh - his defensive abilities are seriously defective.

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biltongbek
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biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
04 Dec 2014, 14:44
#4
04 Dec 2014, 14:44#4
Well Mike, if I look at those stats Jan and Damien at 12 and JJ and Jordaan at 13 for me.  
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clevermike
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Dec 2014, 15:08
#5
04 Dec 2014, 15:08#5
 Agreed with you in all respects.   But Mozart will have a hissy fit and will accuse you of misrepoting or worse.  
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Mozart
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Dec 2014, 15:36
#6
04 Dec 2014, 15:36#6
 56 minus 12 is 4.6? This must be the new maths they keep talking about. If you don't have a division sign OOM, the convention would be to write 56/12.
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Mozart
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Dec 2014, 15:38
#7
04 Dec 2014, 15:38#7
B iltong....unless you have found a new source, I think you will find the turnover stat is turnovers conceded....not turnovers won. 
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biltongbek
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biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
04 Dec 2014, 15:45
#8
04 Dec 2014, 15:45#8
There are two sets of stats for turnovers Mozart, the defensive is turnovers won at the contact area and the attacking stats is turnovers conceded/possession lost 
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Mozart
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Dec 2014, 15:56
#9
04 Dec 2014, 15:56#9

For penetration the stat you are looking for is number of runs to register a defender beaten. JJ needs 5.1 runs to beat a defender. De Jongh needs only 3.3.

 

I'm also confused by your defensive stats. You have de Jongh down at 75% in your defensive table....but at 87% in your summary table.

 

 

In any case this is a nice effort, but runs contrary to intuition. We know JJ is a powder puff tackler and de Jongh is an excellent low tackler. So why the unexpected stats. Firstly JJ never tries to make an offensive tackle....off a kickoff or simply getting deep and taking a player down behind the davantage line. De Jongh tries for these 50/50 tackles all the time.

 

Secondly JJ hardly ever brings his man to ground. He attaches and hangs on for the ride. Technically not a missed tackle....but of all these players JJ will have the longest distance between contact and motion being stopped. He probably concedes more offloads as well.

 

 

There is also the matter of the kind of tackles missed. Jordaan has average tackle stats....but the tackles he misses, eg on Reid in the S15 semi  tend to be a calamity.  De Jongh will make the crucial tackles, the ones you can't miss....Jordaan makes the process tackles but is easily discarded by big/fast men in space when he is the last line of defence.

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Mozart
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Dec 2014, 15:59
#10
04 Dec 2014, 15:59#10
I have never seen an offensive turnover stat BB, could you give us a link to your source. That's certainly a step forward  
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biltongbek
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biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
04 Dec 2014, 16:00
#11
04 Dec 2014, 16:00#11
Ignore the tackle stats in the final summary, I sorted the table and forgot to remove the tackle percentages. 
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biltongbek
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biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
04 Dec 2014, 16:02
#12
04 Dec 2014, 16:02#12
If you go to SANZAR website you will find all the super rugby stats you need. 
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biltongbek
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biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
04 Dec 2014, 16:05
#13
04 Dec 2014, 16:05#13
Mozart, you can nitpick all you want, Juan du jongh misses 25% of his tackles and JJ misses the least, if you want to start telling me one defender in context is poorer then you need to apply consistency to your theories.
You criticised Lambie for tackling low but compliment Du Jongh for tackling low, which is it? 
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Mozart
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Dec 2014, 16:09
#14
04 Dec 2014, 16:09#14

By the way...just for some perspective. Here's Adi Jacobs in the 2008 TN.

 

 

44 runs

 

349 metres

 

av 7.93 per run

 

6 tries/ 1 assist

 

59 tackles made / 5 missed

 

Def ensive success 92%

 

 

 

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Mozart
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Dec 2014, 16:14
#15
04 Dec 2014, 16:14#15

You said Adi is a poor tackler.....are you now going to be consistent, believe the stats and change your mind?

 

 

The fact is Lambie is a vulnerability close to the line, because he can't go high when you need a smother tackle. De Jongh has the same issue. 

 

The stats measure quantity, they only hint at quality. You need to apply both....stats and observation.

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biltongbek
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biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
04 Dec 2014, 16:19
#16
04 Dec 2014, 16:19#16
 Well, I can't very well argue his stats, can I.
But why don't you take some of your medicine and stop avoiding the truths and contradictions in your statements.
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Saffolk
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Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
04 Dec 2014, 17:16
#17
04 Dec 2014, 17:16#17
 Yep I just see excuses for JJ s defensive stats....its egg on the faces of those who said he had an issue defensively. 
You need to check the number of balls received by the centres as well as you will find that the Bulls pair received far less ball than the rest. 
We know de Jongh can effect technically good low tackles in open play but is a liability in contact where his lack of physicality is easily ridden. He cannot hit a man and drive him back. Same applies offensively.
JJ attacking strengths are best displayed in his 2013 tests highlights package. That tells us all we need to know. His s15 defensive stats paint an impressive picture.
JJ should be the Bok 13, plain and simple.
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Mozart
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Dec 2014, 18:49
#18
04 Dec 2014, 18:49#18

JJ has reasonable defensive stats because he makes no offensive tackles....they are all contain tackles yielding metres of space.

 

De Jongh has poor defensive stats in this context because he attempts many behind the advantage line....rushing up....tackles.

 

 

Check de Jongh and JJ in tests where they are both cautious and de Jongh is better. There are no mysteries here.

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Saffolk
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Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
04 Dec 2014, 19:01
#19
04 Dec 2014, 19:01#19
It's simply not true that JJ takes time to get his man down,  he tackles just as Conrad Smith does. Neither smash into the opposition their defence is more measured. JJ had an outstanding s15 defensively. 
de Jongh has been useless at test level with ball in hand. JJ on the other hand has an impressive highlights package which show cases his attacking skills at test level.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdhx9Gio0o0
sharkbok
sharkbok
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sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,290 posts
04 Dec 2014, 19:04
#20
04 Dec 2014, 19:04#20
Most of our centres are Creatine crash ball Zombies now days. It seems as backline players have gotten bigger, our centres have lost their skills. 
Most of these stats would be a joke when compared to some of the new Zealand centres.
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clevermike
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Dec 2014, 19:37
#21
04 Dec 2014, 19:37#21
 Mozart
First an attack on me - because Steyn is so uesles andeebcause the stats showed it without a shadow of a doubt.  When I quoted the stats about Steyn under another threat - you accused me of lieing - is Biltongbek also a liar?
The myth that De Jongh misse so many tackles because he is such a strong offensive tackler has been disproved so many times it is unbelievable.
Do you have to har back to Adie Jacobs -  he has not played rugby for years and since he departed the laws have been drastically.   Not that you would know - since you live in the past cloud cuckoo land.
Can you now see why the selection of  Frasie for the Springbok side would be a rank disaster?      He has lost whatever presence he had and is now a poor shaadow of the player he used to be.   And kicking at goal would not make an iota's difference.  
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biltongbek
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biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
04 Dec 2014, 19:53
#22
04 Dec 2014, 19:53#22

Ryan Crotty stats for the season


Carries 147

Meters 663

Meters per carry 4.51

Defenders beaten 48

Clean Breaks 17

Carries needed to beat a defender or make a clean break 2.26

Passes 164

offloads 23

Turnovers conceded 17


When you compare Crotty (an All Black) to our centres we don't compare badly to him.


The biggest difference in my opinion is support play. 


If you want to compare any other centres go to SANZAR website, I think I have done enough research for the day.

— END OF THREAD —

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