Stormers. Horrible reffing performance!

Can some of the rugby knowzits please explain the following few things to me. A) An open hand shove to the face...is it not a straight yellow? Has the rule now been changed that a punch is a yellow and an elbow is a red. B) Closed hand strike to the face...is it not a straight red? C) Pushing early in a scrum? Is there a clear punishment in the laws of the game for this? It seems refs normally give penalties but can also give free kicks. Surely it should always be the same? D) Knocking a highball catcher out of the air is fine...if you are going for the ball and not the player? Do you have to be jumping? The ref yesterday seemed to say that the Lions player had no chance of getting the ball and he did not jump, thus yellowed him. (Lions game) The Stormers played Ok but i think there were some shocking calls against the Bumbies yesterday. Always support SA teams but I despise poor reffing. People call it rub of the green. It's not.

 I agree with you in this regard.  The Brumbies should have been carded for a slap in the face of a player - that was what it amounted to.  Fisticuffs is a red card offense when aimed at the face - end of story.  
The try of Leyds was a shocker - I agree with Naas on that one.
The usage of the elbow to the neck of a Jaguares player - which caused the taking off of the player concerned - was a serious offence too.  Cane should have been red-carded for that one as well - not even a penalty awarded after that one.  Shocking.
There are going to be a number of citings after the games on Saturday and i will like to see the outcomes.         

 ...not so clevermike what was wrong with the Leyds try apart from him dropping the ball in plain sight for all the world to see..

 Brycy
I said the awarding of the try was a shocker - what else is expected from me in this regard?

 Leyds even indicated that it wasn't a try and was flabbergasted when it was awarded, but I've seen even worse decisions in similar situations.

Draad
Leyds is a bloody fool by going high to score that try - while the dieal situation is to go low and make a low dive.  Fact is if he did that there was no controvercy about the try - but he tried to showpony - lost the ball and then was surprised when the try was in fact awarded.  A useless player at the best of times.

     

 A) Tomane's slap on the face should have been yellow.
About the fist and the elbow, I didn't know that but Peyper was very clear when watching the replays of the action: a punch is yellow and a elbow is red,..... don't know,... let's wait to see what the experts say during the week.

B) I would say that it's a red but after what Peyper said,..... I don't know

C) Usually the first offences for pushing early (the first and posibly the second if it's not too close to the first) are free kicks and when the offence is repeated, then a penalty is called

D) didn't watch the game but seems that the Lions' player was correctly yellow carded, he always has to be aware of the other player in the air and with more reason if he doesn't jump

The try of Leyds was a shocker,....... but it seems that was according to laws,..... I didn't know that either but seems (for what Peyper said) that if the ball is beyond the try line then there's no need of being in control of the ball,.... it's enough to be in touch,...... that's what he said,..... let's wait also what the pundits say during the week

Cane's charge should have been a yellow IMO,.... I wouldn't say a red,..... but my internet broadcasting wasn't the best and I saw a shoulder charge not an elbow

 I basically agree with you Basque. WP and Leyds got lucky with that try, but it seems to be within the laws. Bizarre! 

 I thought the rule was you need downward pressure, not possible if your hand isn't somewhere on top of the ball. Leyds' technique left a lot to be desired.
There are just too many 50/50 calls in rugby. These rules need to be simplified. Personally I thought the Brumbies got the short end of the stick much of the time....but at the same time they were very aggressive and that so called ' face slap' was more of a butt of the hand punch.

 I'm just glad the Stormers didn't get the usual short end we've come to expect when Peyper gets whistle happy. I don't rate him at all.

 Mozart
I am baffled by what you mean with the following:-
" that so called ' face slap' was more of a butt of the hand punch".   
Please explain what you meant about that one.

 Mike, it's a dangerous punch and not a slap.

Haha Ok. Wait, so a full on closed fist punch to the chops is just a yellow. An Elbow is red...and then I guess stabbing someone gets you a two week ban ;) @ Basque. Ever seen Ben Smith and his bloody flying kicks when he chases up an unders. I've seen him kick numerous players out of the air with that move. Haha

 The first thing to bear in mind is that there is no such thing as a "straight red" or a "straight yellow", nor were there any "rule changes" concerning red and yellow cards. Fact is  that there is no single law that prescribes a red or a yellow card.

Red/Yellow cards are only mentioned in two places in the laws. The first is in the definitions where they are mentioned. The second is where the meaning/result of the cards are explained, i.e. a yellow for a suspension and a red for a suspension.

All of the transgressions in question are Law 10 (Foul Play) transgressions and the prescribed sanctions are, at most, penalties.

From the law book:

Definitions:

Red Card: A card, red in colour shown to a player who has been sent off for contravening Law 10 - Foul Play, Law 4.5(c).

Yellow card: A card , yellow in colour shown to a player who has been cautioned and
temporarily suspended for 10 minutes playing time.


Law 10. Foul Play.

10.6 YELLOW AND RED CARDS
(a) When a player has been cautioned and temporarily suspended in an International match the referee will show that player a yellow card.
(b) When a player has been sent off in an International match, the referee will show that player a red card.
(c) For other matches the Match Organiser or Union having jurisdiction over the match may decide upon the use of yellow and red cards.

Examples of sanctions:

10.4 DANGEROUS PLAY AND MISCONDUCT
(a) Punching or striking. A player must not strike an opponent with the fist or arm, including the elbow, shoulder, head or knee(s).
Sanction: Penalty kick
(b) Stamping or trampling. A player must not stamp or trample on an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(c) Kicking. A player must not kick an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(d) Tripping. A player must not trip an opponent with the leg or foot.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(k) Dangerous play in a scrum, ruck or maul. The front row of a scrum must not rush against its opponents.
Sanction: Penalty kick
Front row players must not intentionally lift opponents off their feet or force them upwards out of the scrum.
Sanction: Penalty kick
Players must not charge into a ruck or maul without binding onto a player in the ruck or maul.
Sanction: Penalty kick
Players must not intentionally collapse a scrum, ruck or maul.
Sanction: Penalty kick

The decision to issue a card is at the discretion of the ref.

Brycy, did the Ozzies finally accept Beeno's immigration application? Evidence suggests the has taken up residence in Oz as they are clearly infected with "it's the refs fault" syndrome.

Problem is that some referees - 
*  are plain crooks;
*  are incompetents; and 
*  some are over-scrupulous in applying the laws and often enough gets it wrong when interpreting the laws.
The first category includes the Bryce Lawrence and Paddy O'Brien type of referees whose main objective is not the application of the laws per se, but the determination of the outcomes of games.   They also include those referees who reacted to the famous circular sent out to ensure that the SA Teams be punished for being SA Teams thus determining the outcomes of games.
All referees make mistakes in applying the laws - after all referees are human beings who do make mistakes in life - but when referees repeatedly shows deficiencies of a similar nature they normally are removed from the list of referees.  
The third category is nowadays common and the referees are liable to make mistakes by either referring matters to the TV ref and then applies the recommendation of the laws  on what the monitor believes to be the correct application of the laws.    That should be full-proof since unlike the match referee, the monitor has a copy of the laws in hand and should not be silly in interpretation.  Unfortunately the question asked by the match referee is not always correct either,
The other silliness that occurs - like was quoted above by the ceradunce idiot - is that some interpretations have been clarified by decisions taken by disciplinary hearings afterwards and by clarifications sent out by World Rugby.  Those decisions determining the type of cards are also by now clear - where the case is that the conduct of a player endangers the life or health of players result in the issuing of red cards or when after a yellow card the player concerned repeats a yellow card offence he gets a red card automatically.  On the other hand a yellow card offence is where a player commits a professional foul not in the category mentioned, where the outcome is not dangerous for the opposing player involved, but is aimed at the outcome of the result of his actions by a player. 

 Brycy
I do not know anything about a trial involving Watson - it had nothing to do what happened on the field of play if it did happen.
However, where did you get the 7-2 penalty count story from?  The count was in fact 7-5 with 2 penalties against the Brumbies for foul play when they slapped a player in the face and the other one when they started a fisticuff attack.   For the rest the count was 5-5.
They must only blame themselves for the loss.      

All I know is that I hate it when refs screw games up. I don't care which teams are playing. Obviously it stings more when teams I support get crap calls go against them. This is why I'm all for technology. Give the touch judge an IPad with a view from the top of the scrum. Let the on field ref monitor the scrum from his position next to it. Put referrals into the game. Give the Tv ref more responsibility. Do whatever it takes to get as many bum calls out of the game as possible.

Also, they need to change the laws around chasing high balls. The attacking player can do exactly as the rules require but it could still very easily end in serious injury to th defender. My change would be that if a player is waiting under a high ball, once he jumps, even if you are jumping and contesting legitimately, you are not allowed to affect his landing off of his feet. To me, it's probably the most dangerous aspect of the game.

 I am all for 15 players per team on the field at all times. If carded, replacements are allowed.  If cards are vindicated, heavey bans and fines should be imposed. Cards are spoiling the game. We get unfair send offs and players not beingsent off where they should have been. This all contributes to highly unfair contests.

Yeah, the uncontested scum thing is also nuts. You can specifically get your props to play dirty if you are being dominated at scrum time. Eventually when they can't replace him, your cheating team can now get clean easy scrum ball every time. I think as far as the tight 5 go, if one is to be sent off, the penalised captain should have to choose a back line player that must be binned. That way, there is no chance of the team that did not infringe being inadvertently penalised for something the other team did.

Nope....then you get what you have in soccer, cynical fouling with excessive cards treated as part of the players rest regime. Yellow cards are appropriate....red cards are the game killers. If the offence is sufficiently bad to get a red card, the player should be ejected from the game, with another player coming on for him after 10 minutes.  

 Cynical fowls should get big fines and long bans. Officiating is too inconsistent and we see too many results influenced by bad calls on yellows and reds. There are other sanctions available that doesn't directly influence results. I know I'm in the minority on this, but until they can get officiating consistent,  I see no other option. 

As long as rulings are consistent. To me that's a priority. The most recent WC being a good example of how random decisions are. I hear you Draad. How many games have we seen ruined by calls where the ref has all the info available to him and still gets it badly wrong. Remember Bizzie's textbook tackle on the golden boy...that got him sent off. Wasn't that a straight red? I can't remember. Bloody French. Saturday's call of giving the lineout to the Stormers was also horrible. Was at a crucial time in the game and the Brambles may have scored from that lineout. It took me two seconds ro see the call went the wrong way. Why can't the Tv ref intervene in those situations? It boggles. For me Nigel Owens will always be the best ref. I guess he's also made mistakes but he never makes the howlers that the Likes of Joubert and Polite(spelling) do.

 Plum, poor wee Bizzie got in a tizzie in that game & it was his second yellow card so he was sent off.