The Age Old Debate ... The Tighthead Prop.

We have all heard the adage of “a  match is won or lost upfront”.

The tighthead prop can easily be construed as the most important player of any rugby team.

He is the anchor of the scrum and the player who takes the most amount of force through his body.  The tighthead side is more technically and physically demanding than on the loosehead side.

With a good tighthead the team has the ability to win clean ball at the scrum ... push for a right shoulder ... which as you know neutralizes the oppositions openside flank ... which in turn sets the team up with a great attacking advantage.

A good tighthead prop can also force scrum penalties through superior technique and sheer power.

His role on opposition ball, is to scrum down and limit the hookers sight as best he can for the put in ... to try and blind him so to speak ... to make the quality of their ball as poor as possible by putting pressure on their loose head and hooker.

He also has a key role in the lineout and usually stands at 3 so that he can lift and support both the front and middle jumpers. As soon as the ball is caught his job is to bind tightly onto the catcher and support him while the ball is secured ... compliments of Carl Hayman .

If we were to look objectively at our top tightheads ...

Coenie Oosthuizen

Tank Du Toit

Ruan Dreier

Vincent Koch

Wilco Louw

Frans Malherbe

Trevor Nyakane

Who among them stands out as our very best starting tighthead ... and who should his cover be on the bench?

My personal views are that Nyakane, Tank Du Toit and Coenie do not have the technique at 3 down pat. Converting a loosehed to the tighthead side isn't that easy. I believe them to be liabilities and subsequently would never consider them for this key position.

Rassie clearly sees things differently.

Having looked at our options, I've come up with 3 that I consider to be the best of the sorry lot. Whether we like them or not, we have no choice but to go with what we have and to consistently select them there.

This chopping and changing every week isn't doing the Goats any favours.

Welcome back CC

Have you heard...we're playing chess after the rugby ends.

Have already been researching some strategies and also style identification and counters.

Yes, the geek lives!

Are you serious?

Geek?? What are you saying? Should I be offended?

lol!!

Welcome to the club ... Geek!!

You have a great imagination ... and a mind for strategy, so I think you'll do well at the game.

If I can offer any advice ... try to predict what your opponents next move, and play accordingly.

There is a lot to this game and you never stop learning.

Let me know if you're ever up for a challenge!!

CC

Based on your evaluation of the role of Tightheads which I think is 100% correct - I do think that we have only Louw and Malherbe that meet the requirements.

However, the limit tightheads based entirely on scrumming is not realistic, since the scrum itself is to my mind not the only facet of play required and they must also contribute outside of scrumming and line-outs.  This would obviously include ball carries and defense.  

You can have extra strong tightheads who make limited contributions outside of scrumming and they would surely be deficient.   I think it requires also a balance between scrumming and extra-scrumming performance that any coach must try and make.   

Anyway I do not differ from what you wrote - I merely add some issues that I believe is considered by coaches as well.

I do agree that the change is difficult, CC

Although against England I was impressed with what Tank brought off the bench, always felt like him and Kitshoff offered game-changing power off the bench - therefore I'd be inclined for him to be my bench tight-head

Starting is more difficult, would be tempted to go Wilco and build some future depth, and stick with a domestic player rather than Koch.

You are absolutely right, Mike.

The tight-loose is a vital part of play, especially for a prop. In reality we don't often see a Richard Bands freight training over everyone and scoring a try in the corner (my all time favourite try by the way). Props tend to be seen a lot less than the rest of the tight 5.

Take Coenie as an example. He is not a very good scrummager ... he hinges and scrums inwards when under pressure and his binding to his hooker is often broken ... but he comes into his own as a ball carrier. I can't think of any better. 

If we look at our current stocks at tighthead ... Malherbe is probably the most solid of them all ... he's not easily moved ... and apart from a few technical issues, stands his man rather well ... but when it comes to the tight-loose, then guys like Coenie and Koch stand head and shoulder above him.

Sadly we can't have our cake and eat it.

I will always rate scrumming power ahead of a Coenie type in the tight loose. It just makes more sense to secure our set piece first.

Yes Deddy ... he had a great game against the Poms ... but in all honesty, they weren't exactly the best team to test ourselves against.

I still rate Tank as a quality loosehead and would much rather has seen him there at test level.

That of course is just my personal preference.

Mike also likes Tank on the tighthead side.

https://everything4rugby.com/performance-room/coaching/carl-haymans-front-row-philosophy

https://everything4rugby.com/performance-room/coaching/carl-haymans-front-row-philosophy

CC

Denny made a sugestion last month that after the rugby dies down and the site is less hot, we should chess it up a little.

He also mentioned the bragging rights involved, hence me laying groundwork now.

I'm decent at it, beat some people who claimed, as they all do, to be very good, but never really played in any serious capacity.

Dunno if you saw Denny's post since it happend duri ng your recent hiatus. Anyway, i said i'd be keen and from the looks of it, you'll be up for it too.

Nice.

No ... I missed it.

It's a great idea.

I'm definitely in.

Plum ... what site do you guys intend playing on ... chess.com ?

Malherbe can be prominent outside the scrum. The actual scrumming is less than good. 

"Plum ... what site do you guys intend playing on ... chess.com?"

No idea, but it will be something like that i guess.

Cool. Looking forward to it!!!

Would be nice if Mike and Moz could have a game at ten paces!

I'd actually pay money to see both the game and the fallout haha

Haaaaaaahahahahahaaa!!

Look who's desperate for payback??

Moffie is still sulking. It's a week later and the poor dear is still pouting.

I can see him wringing his hands ... a gleeful look in the eye ... shouting out "Revenge" .. !!

He's so determined to put me in my place that he's got his posts all mixed up ... who posted what ... and on top of that, the decision to counter everything I've said was made before he even knew what I had posted.

Moffie!! Slow down, boet!! You're going to soil your undies if you're not careful. You aren't a young man any more.

Relax, man ... !!

Mozart

Why are you always coming up with garbage when a real rugby issue is discussed.   Personal attacks is NOT the answer - but that apparently is the only thing your closed mind can produce.

Please do us all a favour - just think before you respond to messages,  We had a reasonably interesting discussion on a real rugby issue - that must be beyond your comprehension and against your normal behavior.   Rather to discuss any rugby reasonably - the personal attacks will be the only thing you can come up with,

You have a person as prejudiced as you in Monsieur Merde - why not ask ed to open a new department on site so you and co can  freely discuss amongst the three of you  all the prejudiced BS you so enjoy.   

You can then limit this component for real rugby discussions.     

Listen go back and feed he pigs and stay there.

Lügnerin, nobody on this forum makes more personal attacks than you. Nobody. 

Only react to personal attacks and that is a fact.

Only react to personal attacks and that is a fact.

What's the worst I have ever said to you? It's only more recently that I b egan using Lügnerin which means 'liar'. You do lie. Freifrau means 'Duchess'. Klugscheißer means 'know it all'. Most commonly I use your full name. I never swear at you. I have never said you were stupid, though I have questioned why you chose to call yourself Clever Mike.

Have I called you a worthless cunt, asshole, fucker, bastard, bullshitter, someone who needs to be gotten rid of (murdered)? There is so much more. All of them unprovoked. You are the most flagrant hypocrite I have ever encountered on any forum. 

You receive a far more lenient response than you have any right to. Most other forums would have banned you. 

I like logical rugby discussions and cannot stand attacks on players which are not based on fact - but prejudice.   When that comes up I am scathing and cannot stand nonsense from members, 

That is where the personal attacks normally start.  Mozart by some distance are the worst when it comes to such attacks.  We tried a couple of times to make peace - but his personal attacks were back within 14 days every time.  

What about criticizing a player for real deficiencies and pointing that out?   In his book Mozart came up with the triple lie as to Du Toit - long neck, thin shoulders and thin wrists.   Now it is swan neck Du Toit,   That is not even remotely related to the performances of Du Toit.   It is that type of BS that degrades the site to a level where personal attacks are the norm. 

Lets get back to what happened in the past - Mozart got so bad in that  he drove some members off the site,   He has been attacking me for years after I did not respond in his favour to an e-mail he sent me about Saffex's weight.

I think he is totally off the rails by now - when one differs from him he goes ballistic.   He can write total BS and then claims that it comes from the world leading rugby analyst and we must all just accept it.   

AO - aka securiocat, Gonzo the Great (aka Ape), Sun Tzu, Lurker and a dozen other user names - are almost as bad as Mozart.   He writes total garbage and then reacts badly to criticism.  He has been repeating the garbage for years and was the person who also pretends he is a supreme analysts on site and when cornered he start making degrading comments about rugby knowledge of other members,    

That is the type of members who for years tried to rule this site - they get their way and everything is fine  - they get it in the neck and they react viciously,   That is the long and the short of what these two are up to.

Sad to see - but very real.                       

Moffie operates in a gang.

It's how he rolls.

It's always been that way with him. He lends his support to anyone who's willing to return the favour. Even idiots that rate Morne Steyn as a better 10 than Dan Carter ... or some dumb ignorant fool who thinks Mohoje is McCaw's better ... lol!!

Moffie is so desperate for a little support that he'll even endure incredible statements like Kirschner being a much better full back than Folau.

I have known Moffie for more than a decade and he's still the same opinionated, pompous ass he was then. Just a littler slower on the uptake.

He is a bully ... and as is usually the case with bullies ... one smack in the mouth and suddenly we see another side to him. A sulking, pouting, name calling, emotional crybaby.

Poepies operates the same way even though he denies it.

Moffie and Poepies are well suited. They are the same type of people.

CC

Moffie operating as a gang is a 100% correct statement,  The "gang" has elevated themselves to the leading rugby analysts in the world - they claim to discover things that never happened and when challenged claim that they identify "problems"  which other analysts and experts never raised.  

Pompous is right - but too mild to describe their total arrogance.  You can add prejudice to that as well - mixed up with a tendency to lie about what actually happened on  the field of play.   What a concoction we have here.        

Pot, kettle, black.

BB

100% correct about the issue of scrums in the game nowadays.  That is why I would not prefer Wilco - his contribution outside of scrumming is minimal and one has to take that into account as well.

BlueBok ... why would I be offended ... and why would I attack you?

So ... in other words, a guy like Coenie would be a better choice because of how well he carries the ball in the loose?

We sacrifice the pointless scrum set piece for a little more go forward. Is that what you're saying?

Would it be better if we rather replace our props with mobile ball carriers like Vermeulen?

Sarcasm?

I asked you a simple question. Scrummaging prop or one better suited to the tight loose.

I even gave an example of that to Mike, who by the way already mentioned the importance of the tight loose. You should read his post. You may just learn something. 

It's pretty obvious that the all rounder would be the better choice ... uh-duh!!! ... but ... pray tell ... which of our tighthead props has the ability to scrum well and be effective in the tight loose?

Anyone? Anyone at all? Hence the question. One or the other. We don't have both!!

Feeling like a fool yet?

To counter your childish attempt ... how often do you see our tighthead prop making a difference in the tight loose? How often do you see him coming in and cleaning players out at a ruck? How many times do you see our tighthead prop carrying the ball effectively and gaining us some go forward in a match? 

Once ... twice ... not at all?

You would sacrifice our set piece for the off chance that the prop gets to carry the ball for 2m ... if he's lucky ... or for 5 seconds and then go to ground as a passing skill is something he's yet to master?

Wow!!!

Ok!!

To Herr Drache's credit the tighthead was revered as such in places like France. They had a saying, "no tighthead, no win". However, the scrum is not the weapon it once was. A good lineout is even deadlier and provides more options. It can limit the opposition more in general play. Remember how New Zealand at one point wouldn't kick out? They were avoiding lineouts. It complicated matters.

Now, out tighthead options. Malherbe. I don't rate his scrumming. He may just be our best option. I don't rate any of our tight heads very highly right now.

@Lügnerin: Man up and at least own the person who strive to be. You are the most vulgar person on this forum by far. All personal attacks are initiate by you. Every word I spoke was the truth of the matter. Ende.

PS: When cornered? Where and when?