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The Boks

Started by Saffolk 29 REPLIES3,738 VIEWS· 09 Aug 2021, 11:10
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SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
09 Aug 2021, 11:11
#1
09 Aug 2021, 11:11#1
Good read from Supersport As the dust settled on South Africa’s dramatic last gasp win over the British and Irish Lions, there was a stat that flashed up on the television screens in the press suites at Cape Town Stadium that for any other team would seem rather remarkable. It was the one that reflected that the Springboks had managed only 36 per cent of the available possession in the game which they eventually won with a Morne Steyn penalty one minute from time to clinch the series 2-1. “Not many teams would expect to win with so little possession,” remarked one scribe. “The Boks often do,” responded another. And it’s true. Think back to Wellington in 2018, the game that played such a significant role in giving the Boks confidence to strike out for World Cup glory in Japan the following year. The Bok team that won at Wespac Stadium that day was soundly beaten in the battle for possession by the All Blacks. There was a more recent example though. When South Africa A, which was the Boks in all but name, beat the Lions in a midweek game 10 days before the official start of the series, they were as soundly beaten in the battle for possession as they were in the final test nearly a month later. Yet they won that game too, and scored two tries to one. DANGEROUS COUNTER-ATTACKERS That try count is also something to note and consider if you are one of those who are inclined to think that the Boks’ defensive prowess makes them boring. In Wellington in 2018, the Boks won the game on their defence yet also scored five tries. As they showed then and again in the SA A game and also in the deciding Lions test, they are not just good defenders, they are also superb counter-attackers and dangerous from broken play. There is a further stat that bears consideration and which completely refutes those who contend the Boks should play differently and that it is the Lions who played all the rugby and the Boks just, as they used to say of Chelsea boss Jose Mourinho, parked the bus. While the Boks’ big achievement was to restrict the Lions to two tries across three test matches, with both of those Lions scores coming via driving mauls, thus reflecting that the so-called Lions threats at the back were completely negated, they scored four tries across the three matches. Not only that, but they were also across the line for disallowed tries far more often than the Lions were across those three matches. The Willie le Roux try in the first test was only disallowed by a marginal call. The try the Boks did score in that test was an excellent counter-attacking try, started by Pieter-Steph du Toit outflanking some of the Lions in his own half and Faf de Klerk dotting down. The 80-metre counter-attack try scored by the Boks and so brilliantly finished by Cheslin Kolbe in the final test was also a spectacular score. DOESN”T FIT THE BORING NARRATIVE And because it was still really Boks against Lions, let’s factor that SA A game into the mix. That leaves us with eight tries across four matches, with the Boks scoring five against three. All the Lions tries were scored by their forward drive, they never had a back cross the line against the Boks once. All the Bok tries were scored by backs. That’s a quite incredible statistic and doesn’t quite fit the boring narrative. When it has been on to attack, the Boks have done so, and even in the first half of the final test, when they were forced to make four times as many tackles as their opponents, they came close to scoring with a cross field sweep that Handre Pollard started inside his own 22. There is some validity to the argument that the Lions might have done better had they opened up more and perhaps played someone like Finn Russell ahead of Dan Biggar, but it was when they turned to their kicking game that the Lions produced their most successful half of the series in terms of points scoring. They won the second half of the first test 19-5. And as the All Blacks learned in Wellington, playing an all-embracing running game against the Boks doesn’t necessarily work. Even if you have the best players in the business playing for you, which the Kiwis are at the back in comparison to the Lions, there is no team in world rugby more adept at exploiting opposition mistakes. KEY PLAYERS WERE ABSENT AND THEY STILL WON The Boks weren’t great in the final test and towards the end there were times they looked determined to lose as they made mistakes, such as Herschel Jantjies taking way too long to play the ball and the Lions ending up with a penalty that they kicked for three points when it had in fact been the Boks who were driving forward. While veteran Steyn was the eventual hero for his winning kick, he also did some odd things, like almost failing to dot down behind the tryline on one occasion and also missing touch. But the Bok mission needs to be seen in perspective - they were playing the Lions, who are always recognised as a step above when it comes to challenges (outside of the All Blacks of course) after not having played for 20 months, and any kind of win was going to be seen as a mighty achievement. What makes it even more noteworthy were the disruptions to their final series preparations caused by the Covid outbreak and the fact that for the entire series, they were without the massively influential Duane Vermeulen while 2019 World Rugby Player of the Year Pieter-Steph du Toit played less than half the series. Both were missing from the last test. RG Snyman, such an important part of the Bomb Squad at the World Cup, was another player the Boks had to do without while Lood de Jager, so brilliant as a replacement in the second test, came into the series underdone after a long injury absence. In a nutshell, the Boks could have been a lot better and had several reasons to not be quite at the top of their game, and yet they still won a series against a good Lions team. That’s an achievement that deserves resounding applause.
SE
SebPro2,680 posts
09 Aug 2021, 11:19
#2
09 Aug 2021, 11:19#2

Stats in rugby overall show that more tries are scored from counter attacks (element of surprise) than by phase play and set pieces.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
09 Aug 2021, 11:25
#3
09 Aug 2021, 11:25#3
This notion that we don’t attack is a load of utter crap In the WC we scored more points, beat more defenders, made more clean breaks and gained more metres than any other side You don’t do that not playing attacking rugby when the opportunity presents itself
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
09 Aug 2021, 11:31
#4
09 Aug 2021, 11:31#4

Ja, what mo st of has been saying...

SE
SebPro2,680 posts
09 Aug 2021, 11:43
#5
09 Aug 2021, 11:43#5

Maybe it differs with individual nations stats but this is overall rugby worldwide stats.

The NZ'ers are the counter-attack kings and I guess they over the years have scored more tries over, lets say the last 2 decades than any other national side.

I don't say this is gospel but it was in an article on this subject...it is however an interesting point.

The element of surprise is a successful military concept...I think the same principal applies to all competitions of challenge.

The same old tactics over and over again eventually lose their power...one has to develope new tactics to outwit the opponent.

KI
kingcornPro3,695 posts
10 Aug 2021, 17:41
#6
10 Aug 2021, 17:41#6

Well, if anyone on here watched chasing the sun, you know how Rassie broke down Gatland Wales team. Gatland pretty much played the same game. 

Wait for the other team to make the mistake, so you can't go on full attack as Gatland / Wales continue to pepper you with kicks and put pressure on you. 

It worked for Wales for 12 years and they have been right up at the top for a long time under him. 

So why play into his hands when he is waiting for you to attack. 

Lets hope we see a slight different approach when it comes to the other matches.

I for one am not a fan of kicking the ball away

XA
XaviPro1,924 posts
10 Aug 2021, 18:52
#7
10 Aug 2021, 18:52#7
In 2017 the All Blacks scored 67 points against the Lions across the 3 Tests and only managed a draw.
The Springboks scored 66 against this Lions squad and won the series after not being able to push on after 2019 WC.
I don't know and maybe we need "clarification*" from Ian Foster if 1 point is all the difference in being able to stay awake and boring rugby.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
10 Aug 2021, 19:11
#8
10 Aug 2021, 19:11#8

Well the Lions had more territory/more possession/ more metres and more defenders beaten. Was that part of the plan. Or were we just lucky Curry, Price and Williams blew obvious try scoring opportunities.


Oh I forgot, that was part of the plan to demoralize them. Just as  we played a non optimum game and nearly lost against Wales….just to head fake England in the final.

Funny though how the game we played against Wales was the game we played in each Lions test.


SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
10 Aug 2021, 20:29
#9
10 Aug 2021, 20:29#9
All these attempts to devalue the current Boks is both insulting and highly amusing Name a Bok side and coach that has done better than taking a side from 7 to 1, beating NZ in NZ which is only the 4th time ever, winning the RC, the WC (we did not win the WC we thrashed England doing so) and the series against the Lions having played hardly any rugby prior to the series. All within a 2 year period of playing rugby, Come on name a better Bok performance than the above. It’s fucking embarrassing how you lot carry on. Do you not comprehend how utterly stupid you look trying to devalue this record It’s fucking madness
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
10 Aug 2021, 21:20
#10
10 Aug 2021, 21:20#10

Dave 

Not only madness - I from time to time have a talk with some ex-springboks  and present ones and if I even mention something coming from Mozart and the Kindergarte Imbecile -  obviously did not mention their names - they generally burst out laughing and have said  "They must be kidding.   Do they understand the game.   ll they said about Erasmus  and Nienaber is that they are the best coaches  they ever played under.

    

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
10 Aug 2021, 23:09
#11
10 Aug 2021, 23:09#11

"In the WC we scored more points, beat more defenders, made more clean breaks and gained more metres than any other side"

No. New Zealand 122 clean breaks, the Boks 89. Consider that the Boks played some very lowly opposition. Most of their numbers came from the Canada game (25 clean breaks and 42 defenders beaten).

The 2019 Boks were outside the top tier for attacking production. They finished 3rd and 4th in almost all categories.

As for winning most games with little possession. The info I have at hand doesn't correlate with that. Wellington was an anomaly. We don't often win games like that. A few Kiwi errors really hurt them a lot. 

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
10 Aug 2021, 23:18
#12
10 Aug 2021, 23:18#12
YAWN
AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
10 Aug 2021, 23:29
#13
10 Aug 2021, 23:29#13

Unteromlett gets scrambled again. In the face of truth: 


SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
10 Aug 2021, 23:40
#14
10 Aug 2021, 23:40#14
Name a better performing Bok side and coach omelette
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
11 Aug 2021, 01:41
#15
11 Aug 2021, 01:41#15

You obviously avoided the link in the ‘no respect’ thread. So you are making incorrect claims:

Read this Dave and stop embarrassing yourself:

‘ And whether Springboks supporters want to admit it or not, the results say they are an above-average team barely above Springbok teams of the past.

Since Rassie Erasmus and Jacques Nienaber took over the Springboks as a duo and employed this style of game, they are 20-9-1, winning 66.6 percent of the games.

The Lions tour was perfectly smack bang on this average, with two wins and one loss, and could’ve easily fallen the other way in the last five minutes of the series.

Historically, the Springboks have won 62 percent of the time so it’s marginally better than what South Africa has been. An argument can be made it is emphatically worse aesthetically, but there are no bonus points for style after all.

If you just want to judge against tier one opposition only, they are 15-9-1, a win rate of 60 percent, less impressive and slightly lower than the historical average.

The coaching pair definitely revived Springbok rugby from the absolute lows of 2016 and 2017, but before being crowned masters of the game, consider that winning at 66 percent is below that of Joe Schmidt (72.2%), Eddie Jones (69%), Rod Macqueen (79%), and far below that of Steve Hansen (87%), and Graham Henry (85%) with the All Blacks.

The South Africans so desperately want global recognition for a 66 percent winning team it seems, but don’t realise that they won’t get it until they prove to be dominate for a proper stretch of time, which, in order to achieve, would likely require winning in multiple ways to beat all before them over a prolonged period.

And all we are seeing is the same game plan, rolled out every time with results that have to be said, are inconclusive.

If the third test plan was hoist it every time and hope for a call to go your way to give Morne Steyn a shot in the last minute, that is not going to go your way repeated enough times.

Unfortunately, as we’ve already seen when it doesn’t go their way, they want to blame the ref publicly instead of looking in the mirror.

The world is waiting for the Springboks to put together an 80-90 percent winning test season that doesn’t include the likes of Italy, Namibia and Canada and losing to New Zealand through a condensed World Cup test season.

That is the only way to eliminate the doubts outside South Africa about this team.

The question we want answered is whether this dire form of rugby that has produced a win rate of 66 percent can produce longer-term, undisputed dominance, at least for one year. That’s all. One genuine test season of extended success.

If you win two out of every three games, it won’t get you there. It shows you are a good team, a genuine force in test rugby but it is nowhere near the consistency we have seen from elite teams over the last decade.

Because that’s what great teams do. They compete against history, measuring themselves against the best of the past to secure a place as an all-time team as they are above those they compete with. These Springboks are still battling contemporaries, and often struggling to get by at that.

The Springboks winning the series 2-1 is a massive achievement given the circumstances. Does it prove their absolute greatness in history? It is only the starting block.

The 2007 World Cup-winning squad, over the three year stretch from ’07 to ’09 won 73.8 percent of the games, 31 games from 42. It included a 3-nil win over the All Blacks in the 2009 season to undeniably seal the deal.

This squad beat the All Blacks in New Zealand in 2018 to end a nine-year drought. They backed it up by losing at home a fortnight later, before a draw and another loss in 2019.

So, under Erasmus as head coach, they are 25 percent against New Zealand. That is not going to earn you respect down here, far from it.’


DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
11 Aug 2021, 12:01
#16
11 Aug 2021, 12:01#16
We know NZ is the standard...that doesn't mean we are crap.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
11 Aug 2021, 12:04
#17
11 Aug 2021, 12:04#17
What's Eddie's record vs NZ in the last 10 years?...that's right, the Poms didn't play NZ much under Eddie...
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
11 Aug 2021, 20:28
#18
11 Aug 2021, 20:28#18

Nobody said we are crap….this journalist said our record doesn’t justify the chest beating. My point is we could be much better.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
11 Aug 2021, 20:32
#19
11 Aug 2021, 20:32#19

What chest beating?

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
11 Aug 2021, 20:39
#20
11 Aug 2021, 20:39#20

Lurid headlines like this on rugby24

Magical Kolbe, evergreen Steyn: Desperate Boks scrap, claw way to brutal British Lions series triumph`

Triumph?

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
12 Aug 2021, 01:44
#21
12 Aug 2021, 01:44#21
What a stupid naive article. Firstly we all know that Rassie’s first year was about restoring the dire position SA rugby found itself sitting at number 7 in the rankings. We only had a 50% win record after year one but the real deal that year was beating NZ in NZ giving the squad belief It’s about what this side and the coach has done since year one - the graph is on an upward journey unlike a guy like Jake who’s record was great in his first two years and then when the novelty of the new faded, so to did Jake and his team until Eddie came to the rescue Since year one Rassie and the Boks have moved to number 1, won the RC, WC and Lions series - no Bok side or coach has achieved that
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
12 Aug 2021, 02:07
#22
12 Aug 2021, 02:07#22

No actually it’s a well researched article, which sets the record straight. Jake was great in his first 2 years, his 3rd year was wrecked by politics and he won the WC in his 4th year. And he attained the number one ranking in November 2007, just before the Bools finally got him.

Now ironically he’s restoring the Bools franchise. Jake will go anywhere to compete….he would never have pulled the chicken run or Berrygate.


AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
12 Aug 2021, 02:09
#23
12 Aug 2021, 02:09#23

2017 was better than 2018. 50% vs England, 0% vs Wales, 50% vs Argentina. You get the picture. Our rugby became worse over time, not better. South Africa were ranked 5th heading into the WC. Double ranking points and a fortuitous schedule where NZ were faced in the group and not a knockout round, as well as a depleted Welsh side meant the Boks leapfrogged up the rankings. They were not dominant going into the WC and they were not dominant in any WC game against tier 1 opponents until England. Get your facts straight Unteromlet.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
12 Aug 2021, 05:17
#24
12 Aug 2021, 05:17#24

Wales is better than England...and has been for a few seasons already...and the Japs beat Ireland and the best Scots team in years.

TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
12 Aug 2021, 20:04
#25
12 Aug 2021, 20:04#25

The article provides nothing. It is all about the modern game: deflecting, digressing, sidetracking, misplaced whataboutism etc


The games were dull, which does not mean they were boring. Most people who hate on rugby enjoy this kind of games as they see it as a way of destroying rugby.


The lions, while being a collection of talented individuals, trained and drilled properly, contrary to SA players, are just that: a collection. All of them were at the end of an excrutiating season, all of them had little time to prepare. They were the side expected to deliver a minimal game plan performance.

Yet they took up the mantle of entertaining, trying to promote the game. Which may have caused their demise, because the lack of SA game plan could be countered at the cost of more dullness. Which the Lions did not want to afford as they are ambassadors for the game.

On the other side, an allegedly  WC champion (in fact, as for the other titles, they were gifted by W of rugby in hope to kickstart rugby in SA, which will never happen), whose team has not changed so much over the past two years, with players as fresh as fresh and yet, was the one to deliver a sub par miminal game plan, or more exactly, a lack of game plan.

Receiving the Lions is an honour, that the home team must meet by showing brilliance, flamboyance, brio. Instead, it looked as if the Lions were the receiving side, the one that had to justify the honour.


This series was not about the Lions, they gave more than expected. It was about the host and the hosting was a disgrace. Instead of feeling it as an honour, the SA team perceived as a chore. They had to play rugby games, there was no enthusiasm, no love for the country, mere mercenaries on the pay roll. They could play for the Netherlands for most of them, which by the way would solve the globalistic scheme of having african teams in European competitions and at least, players could speak to each other in their home language, as afrikaneer is nothing more than dutch spoken by people who read too much the bible.

TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
12 Aug 2021, 20:16
#26
12 Aug 2021, 20:16#26

The element of surprise is a successful military concept...I think the same principal applies to all competitions of challenge.

The same old tactics over and over again eventually lose their power...one has to develope new tactics to outwit the opponent.
No.SA lack of game plan is nothing like surprising. It is rigid, dull. It is all about grinding, grinding, grinding, grinding.
Trying to milk penalty after penalty, which puts an excessive pressure on referees and trying to get a mistake from the opposition by hammering the same sequence like up and unders.
The only try scored by SA came from a fluke. There is nothing in it. SA lack of gameplan is like playing the roulette, keep playing it over and over again under the right number and colour comes up.
Other teams are prisoners though of the necessity of promoting rugby, of trying to play rugby.Other teams could come with adequate ways of playing in order to beat the lack of rugby provided by SA. At the cost of ruining rugby even faster. That would be non games over non games.
SA know that the other sides enjoy rugby, want to promote rugby. SA keeps exploiting that angle to get results. The day other sides surrender to SA lack of rugby, the day rugby is dead.
So, no, there is no need to change tactics as long as others know they can not afford playing certain ways.
SA has never been able to play rugby, SA has always been the antithesis of rugby, the negation of the rugby game. They can not change, they can offer nothing else.
TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
12 Aug 2021, 20:20
#27
12 Aug 2021, 20:20#27

Jake was great in his first 2 years, his 3rd year was wrecked by politics and he won the WC in his 4th year. And he attained the number one ranking in November 2007, just before the Bools finally got him.

Now ironically he’s restoring the Bools franchise. Jake will go anywhere to compete….he would never have pulled the chicken run or Berrygate.


Is he the same guy who wrecked several european clubs, who had his favourites and pets, his players to shift the blame on...


Nothing good comes out from SA. This guy won a WC, just as the other won, that is thanks to favours from WR. This guy provided no different lack of rugby just as the other provides.

The SA brand of rugby does not change with coaches; SA has never been able to play rugby, they have always denied the game of rugby and its spirit.

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
12 Aug 2021, 20:26
#28
12 Aug 2021, 20:26#28

Jake's third year was heavily influenced by injuries. We haven't suffered injuries like that since. I can't recall us suffering injuries like that before either. 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Aug 2021, 21:07
#29
12 Aug 2021, 21:07#29

How many injuries and of whom skapie?

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
12 Aug 2021, 21:25
#30
12 Aug 2021, 21:25#30
Jake was so shit in his last two seasons that he was going to get sacked. Instead they hired Eddie Jones to save his arse. It’s all in Gavin Rich’s book on Bok coaches
— END OF THREAD —

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