The Cantebury - Auckland Game

A nice game to watch and Cantebury thoroughly desere their win.   However, I do think to a major extent Auckland is to blame for their own demise.   Some observations though:-

*   Auckland was very poor in line-outs - they lost too many of those.

*   Scrumming was a mess on both sides - something very wrong with that

*   Auckland definitely need a decent flyhalf - the present one is a knock-on specialist - he really had an atroious game.

*   Very good ball handling skills by both sides - other than the flyhalf issue mentioned.

*   Where did they find that referee?   If he is the best local one - then they have really a major refereeing problem.   The ref was really poor with especially that NO - YES story that preceeded the one Cantebury try.  I could not make out head or tail of his decisions often enough.    One example after penalties he did allow the Cantebury players freedom not to fall back 10 meters as required by law - should have blown them up in the event of quick kicks.   However, there were many other problems as well - so another atrocious referee in New Zealand???

A very good game - but with some blemishes as mentioned.

 Agree with your assessment Mike! Auckland just simply folded under constant Canterbury infringements :-)) and not helped by a ref (as you rightly pointed out) totally out of his depth!

Hakwa

The influence of Bryce Lawrence is spreading wide - eh? LOL

 The ref was Glen Jackson and has spent many years playing pro rugby for Saracens and before that the Chiefs, he has forgotten more about the game than you will ever know and has had a great year reffing.  Truly your bitching about referees is reaching Beeno proportions, put a sock in it please

poi-e

Please look at what Sasue and Hakwa said about the referee - if that is what you call an excellent performance - then I know how bad th referees in New Zealand really are.   Playing rugby and being a good referee does not necessarily go hand in hand with each other.   You need some brains to referee games. 

 You judge him on a single match? If I did that I'd conclude Craig Joubert should never ref again after his NZ/Oz effort.  Glen Jackson is the best up and coming ref in the country, and I'd argue playing the game gives him a distinct advantage over other refs.

 Glen Jackson was atrocious in the 2nd half! The Canterbury forwards picked up on that pretty quickly and did their uttermost best (as they should) to spoil Auckland's ball - case in point, he called hands off to Andy Ellis on an Auckland ruck ball and then allowed Andy Ellis to pick the ball up and boot it down field leading to a Canterbury try. To be fair, Auckland did not offer much in attack - when they ran out of ideas, they simply gave the ball to their go to man Piuatau who was contained well enough by the Cantabarians! They were even trying to score from one phase balls - one phase - go to the wing!

poi-e

Jackson may be the best referee New Zealand has at present - but will he end up on the IRB panl of test referees?    Very unlikely if his conduct yesterday is borne in mind.   If that in fact happens - he would not have a Paddy O'brien to protect him and he would be booted out like Bryce Lawrence was.

hakwa

Yesterdays final was worrying me a lot.   I know the All Black players was not utilized yesterday by the teams concerned - so there would be some very real differences - but there is one issue that bothers me.   Aside from the All Blacks to be added - are these the main core of players that would make up next yeats Super 15 Blues and Crusader teams?   If so - I foresee some real problems - especially for the Blues, but even for the Crusaders without McCaw. 

 Were the forward packs physical, or was it girly netball(basket ball) stuff? He he!

Sharkkbok

Realisitcally - it was basket ball stuff.   I also wrote about the issue in respect of the Manukau - Otago game.  Much the same story in that case.  Really - the All Black supporting members would have a fit about your statement.  LOL

 Yes it was played at a pace and skill level foreign to most Bok fans, the ball went further than 12, and there was more than 1 try in the match, rugby the way god intended. 

poi-e

We all admire the game played with skill and pace.   Wonderful to see - but only possible if the forwards provides decent balls to the backline and if the opposition defence is poor.   That is why there are critical questions about forward play in New Zealand.   

My question was about Super 15 - not anything else.   This year New Zealand had 2 teams in the top 6 - next year it may even be 1.  It is worrying me as a lover of the game - nothing else.      

 Thank you for highlighting yet another one of the defeciencies in our game, clearly the SA focus on forward play is paying huge dividends for your National and S15 sides, the 11 super rugby titles NZ franchises have won surely indicate something's wrong with our focus....

poi-e

At least we realize that there is something drastically wrong in our team set-up and we are trying to bring in younger players.   Yje Chiefs win was a flash in the pan - if they hd to do the amount of travelling the Sharks had to do - they would have lost badly.  Lucky for them they only played the weaker SA side on their away game - whilst for some reson or other the Sharks was in a slump.   Next year they have to play the stronger SA sides away and the result would be to expose their problems.

Incidentally I am quite happy with 3 SA teams in the top 6 in the Super serie.

The All Blacks forwards average age is 32 and the younger players coming through are not up to standard.  Even the backline players are on the old side.   There is very little actual renewal in the All Black side - which I regard as wrong and can bite back badly over the next three years.

Now for a basic lesson - a rugby team consist of 15 players - 8 forwards and 7 backline players.   Any team acting as i they have 15 backline players cannot win - that represents League Rugby - where forwards are expected to play the same style as backline players.   Problem is the New Zealanders are getting "married" to an idea that the only role of forwards has is to play like backline players - huge mistake in the long run  - gigantic.   Like any profession there are rules and requirements for each position on the field - so you cannot use bckline rules and procedures to cover forward play. 

O and the All Blacks won the WC in 1987 and again only 24 years later - are you going to wait another 24 years for it to happen again????????

@poi-e...you take what is said way too serious.  I also watched the ITM Cup final. I must say that I was impressed with Auckland in the first half, but the second half was just bad rugby by them.  I don't  think the ref would have made a difference. The try at the end of the first half by the Crusaders broke the spirit of The Auckland team...or so it seems.

The fact that more tries were scored in the ITM Cup final does not necessarily mean that your teams play better rugby as some of the tries were really soft tries and were given away due to lack of proper defensive systems by Auckland.

The Super 15 is going to be a long season for the Blues if this is the rugby they are going to dish up.

Gordon Freeman

Welcome to the Board.

Let me explain - there are some SA supporters that will make you feel as if it a mortal sin to be an All Black supporter - but the others try to be objective as much as possible.   Don't take what I respond to poi-e too seriously.   She seems to take jabs at SA and I sometimes respond in kind.

As the supporter of the game of tugby in general - I admire the style of rugby played by the All Blacks and I think they thoroughly deserve winning the WC and the Championship.   However, there are some deficiencies that could ultimately be to the deytiment of All Black rugby in particular and world rugby in general.   Those are in summary -

*     That referee development in New Zealand is a problem abd the fact that there are bo New Zeland referees on the IRP test Referee Panel is really a deficiency that needs to be corrected;

*     The fact that the average age of the forwards in the All Black team is 32 years and I am not happy that there really is an adequate replacement program being implmented.

Allow me to explain my vierwpoints on the second issue more clearly.   New Zealand is really fortunate to have had 2 such classic players as Dan Carter and McCaw available to them   However, due to aging - they are getting very near to the age where they would either have to retire or their rugby would deteriorate.   In some ways - if you look at issues obhjectively there are signs of that insofar as Carter especially is concerned.   He nowadays stands deeper in the pocket, kicks more often and his line breaks are getting few and far between - if compared to his play two years ago.   Take a careful look at how he played two years ago compared to this year.   The other aging players amongst the forwards must to my mind also be replaced - it would be encessary to do that gradulaly over the next two years.   Unless this is done the chances of winning the WC again in 2015 will vanish into thin air.

In general I believe most thinking New Zealand members of thiss ite in essence agrees with me - and they mentioned various players that would come into the frame.   because I watch ITM matches on TV , as well as of course the Super 15 series - I believe that the present crop of youngsters are not really on par with their predecessors.   On the positive side - these players can develop further in years to come..

I was rather serious when I mentioned the issues raised by me about the Auckland - Canterbury match, as well as the Manukau-Otago matc - much the same comments.   In both two matches the scrumming and line - out play on all sides were poor and not up to the standards required.

Many New Zealand posters think that i am wrong - maybe a bit old-fashioned as well.   I believe backlines can operate at premium only if they get a proper servcie from their forwards.   If not - there performances (admirable as it is at present) cannot be really good.   That is the reason why I keep on asking questions about forward play.

Yes - I asked a question about the teams for the next Super Series as well.  The Blues did not so well this year and going by what i saw yesterday - I think that it would be much thesame next year.   The team that worried me more was Canterbury - they have an excellent backline - and now McCaw is going to be on a sabattical.    They have a few All blacks to add to their team - but I suppose the core of the team played on Saturday.   Even in their case I think there are problems.

I am looking forward as to your comments on the above issues.

@ clevermike,

the assesment of the game is pretty spot on, but im not sure if its wishful thinking on ur part when it comes to NZ forwards, lolz, :oP
IMO NZ forwards are in a great place, our main area of concern is the loose head and hooker, but hansen has said in a recent interview that he is very well aware of the challenfes that their and plans are in place, but hes keeping his cards close to the chest.

im not sure what spXV games u were watching though, cos i never saw SA or austarlia compete with NZ on the consistent high level in the breakdowns, scrums and lineouts the way nZ did, i will easily admit that SA did the lineouts better, but on a whole the performance of the NZ teams was way better then our SANZAR bros.

i also would definately read nothing into SA having 3 teams in the finals to NZ 2, cos wether the saffas like it or not, the NZ conference is the hardes conference in the competition.
entering rnd 16 there was 9 teams that were playing for a finals spot, 3 from SA, 2 from OZ and 4 from NZ, the real kicker in the guts is that teams like the highlanders who had already beaten the crusaders and the chiefs earlier in the rounds, had been forced to play them again and subsquently lost those matches.
IMO if the conference had been fair and everyone had been allowed to play each other once, NZ would have more teams in the finals like super rugby history has proven so many times in the past before>

end of the day,only 9 teams finished with 50 or more competiton ponts, 4 of them were from NZ and food for thought, the blues who picked up NZs wooden spoon, still managed to win 50% of their games against SA and OZ, including the brumbies in canberra and the bulls in loftus who were their respective countries 2nd best team at the end of the round robin.
NZ being forced to play each other twice is the only thin which keeps our numbers down in the spXV finals, SA dont have it easy either, but a chance to play the cheetahs and lions/kings twice in one year, is nothing like playing the blues twice in one year, especially as in 2011 the blues made the finals, and have won 3 sp titles, there injury issues which were like the lions really hampered their game.

as for glen jackson, he was pretty kak that night, but after watching the game again, some of those call could have been avoided if the assistant refs had of been a little more active, they really need to be able to voice an opinon as to what they saw, cos jackson was in a bad psotion a lot of the times, like being on the wrong side of the scrum when crockett drops his bind etc.
jackson has had a good year of rugby though and im not 100% sure, but he has already reffec an international game between tier two countries???
i think he is NZ best ref at the moment, but he is still green, i do remember a spXV saffa darby he reffed and he contolled the game very well, even the saffa commentators were impressed with the way he officiated the game.
plenty of rough edges to smooth out in jacksons game, but im sure we can all agree, that it was nothing like the debacle that marius jionker showed when he reffed the bulls vs brumbies game and single handedly won the game for the bulls, :oP
 

 @Mike

Wow, somebody inform the AB's that they have been operating without a forward pack for the past x years...SA's long run at 3rd place clearly show's your readiness to address your deficiencies.

I know you desperately wish to see the end of AB dominance, but frankly you could do better than grasp at straws, and I hardly think today's Springbok touring squad as a reflection of addressing issues in your squad, looks like we'll get the same 10 man rugby we also do from you lot.