MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Feb 2018, 18:31#1
Deja vu all over. One could be excused for thinking this was the first week in 2016, so little progress is apparent.
In terms of offloads, it’s clear the players have been told to keep the ball alive. But it’s all so forced.....lacking in touch, that inevitably the ball is spilled. Only the Lions are natural and somewhat effective.
Then in spite all the big powerful men a major franchize enters the frey without a decent tighthead prop.....poor Thomas the Tank was patently Thomas the Unready, or was that Ethelred?
As usual there were some promising young wings. But the names are all different. Will any of yesterday’s crop be there in 2019. Nkosi seems to have the credentials so hopefully that’s one.
Mapoe looks good, Jantjies seems like he’s running the game. Up until the time the match gets close and then right on cue he blows 3 kicks in a row, putting his team in position to lose the game.
And therin lies another old strory. The Sharks have 3 match winning chances from the Lions 5 metres with the lineout throw. Two times they produce ineffective, predictable mauls and get turned. The third time, as a surprise....they go backline. But there’s no disguise, no pace....it’s toothless. Our teams have no tactics for getting the ball over the line.
And then there is Allende, culpable in yet another try with a feeble tackle. Looking as if defence is still a bridge too far for this dumb player.
To me about the only bright light was Robert du Preez at flyhalf. He continues to look solid/test ready. Willemse also had a decent game, one or two nice breaks...without really controlling things.
In summary there were two enjoyable contests.....but no new answers.
PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
18 Feb 2018, 19:12#2
Indeed Moz
Don't forget the Lions wonderful new prop signing that came on in the second half.
Guy looks like a spectator who was chucked a jumper.
"Our teams have no tactics for getting the ball over the line."
Positives though. Seem to have some wing strength at all three franchises that played yesterday. Senatla had a good game. I know you'll like Dyanti. Long legs yet able to move laterally at pace like the Maoris do. Nkosi didn't play quite as well but i rate him too.
All of them know how to get over the line. Hopefully someone manages to bring them into play more then we'll see some tries. I go with Beeno on the Kwagga thing. He'll give wingers opportunities.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Feb 2018, 19:31#3
In you assessment there never will be - so how long did it take you top write this jeremiad?
First of all there is no comparison between the games played in 2015 and 2016 and the games played yesterday - the game plans were completely different and most of the donkeys are gone.
There are elements that needs to improve - but these were the first games p[layed by the players in near to three months. If there was problems they were with the Stormer loosies and scumhalf
Forget about De Allende - he was quite good in attack yesterday.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Feb 2018, 19:31#4
In you assessment there never will be - so how long did it take you top write this jeremiad?
First of all there is no comparison between the games played in 2015 and 2016 and the games played yesterday - the game plans were completely different and most of the donkeys are gone.
There are elements that needs to improve - but these were the first games p[layed by the players in near to three months. If there was problems they were with the Stormer loosies and scumhalf
Forget about De Allende - he was quite good in attack yesterday.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Feb 2018, 19:47#5
Just to add something - there were 8 tries scored yesterday so some players knows how to score tries.
And the best flyhalf by some distance was Willemse - followed by Du Preez, Sanchez and Jantjes.
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
18 Feb 2018, 20:37#6
Willemse must be careful when trying to break inside his 22 but otherwise was good on attack.. Du Preez looks the deal.
Plum it is always a pretty sure bet if you agree with Beeno as my distinguished record shows. Hahahhahahaha
The shaks loss delays the return of ou rootwit!
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Feb 2018, 21:15#7
Beeno
Before I make a statement like in the case of Willemse and the other flyhalfs I look at the game at least twice an study the stats of the players iro both attack and defense - goal kicks made n missed, defense, line breaks and defenders beaten, Based on these stats the Rugby Magazine gave Willemse 47 points and Du Preez 37, showing the difference in performance of those two players.
If it was not for Willemse and Schickerling the Stormers would have lost the game.
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
18 Feb 2018, 21:26#8
Ou maaaaike your stats mean less than you think. . Stats do not explain opportunity or quality of play or quality of decision. A hard tackle is lumped with a powder puff tackle etc etc.
Du Preez looks rugged enough for hard test rugby. Willemse needs a bit more time. Lets see how he goes this super Rugby season.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Feb 2018, 21:56#9
As per normal you don't understand the basics. The stats follows the decisions yaken by a player, ie what happen immediately after the taking of he decision can be succcessful or less so.
As I said above I look at the games at least twice - so I look at things objectively and maybe to understand what grown-ups know and the immature will never appreciate.
PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
18 Feb 2018, 22:59#10
Mike
Stats only tell some of the story some of the time. We all know this.
I'd rather go with your opinion. And I agree that Willemse was good. So was Du Preez.
Jantjies is stylisticly the odd one out in terms of the top 4.
If he has another season like the last two then that throws a spanner in the works.
Interested to see Pollard and/or Boshoff next week. I got a feeling that Mitch will give Boshoff a fair shake come game time. Healthy competition.
None of the centres did anything special. Mapoe was prob the pick of the bunch. We got issues there that need solving.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Feb 2018, 23:25#11
Stats don’t measure decision making......the primary function of a flyhalf.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Feb 2018, 04:09#12
I know stats does not give every indication of decision making as you say but it does indicate the results/effects of decisions.
For instance a poor kick results in counter-attacks having an impact of defense stats and is reflected as a possession loss as well.
Poor decisions by half-backs especially has a direct negative impact on the team performance. That is why no team can really afford players like Morne and Fransie as flyhalfs.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Feb 2018, 05:23#13
plum
In essence we have a center problem and we have not yet got the answer in that case. Other than De Villiers before 2014 the problem has been in existence for decades.
I think that the issue relates to two problems - namely poor selections and atrocious game plans that neutralize the proper usage of mid-fielders. Mitchell created a different environment which Ackerman continued and there was some revival in center performances of the Lions subsequently.
I the case of the Sharks and Stormers there was a slight improvement on Saturday and we well see this weekend whether the Bulls will show improvement from where they were under Ludeke and Marais.
Be it s it may - I think the issue will be resolved by improvement in half-back decision-making and performances as well. I do not trust Jantjies at flyhalf as he goes ga-ga under pressure on test level especially, Maybe Pollard can get out of the doldrums he has been in 2015 and even subsequently. If he does not the answer is clear - we have Du Preez and Willemse for consideration. There is o way the latter problem will be solved ultimately, The center issue will likely take longer.
19 Feb 2018, 07:22#14
There will always be jitters at the beginning of a season. It stands to reason that players and their respective teams will only settle and pick up momentum as the season unfolds. I wouldn't make too harsh a judgement call on what transpired over the weekend.
Having said that, one can't help but to worry about a few things. The Sharks coaching staff should have known that their front row was going to be freight-trained. Everyone else did. How many more times must we see Tank Du Toit fail at tighthead. The display we saw on Saturday makes a mockery of their so called preparation. Are these professional coaches or what?
Lol!! ... It's taken you guys an eternity to realize that stats count for nothing. That it's a tool for the clueless. It's their only way of unraveling the "confusion" that they see on the field. When I speak of "confusion" I'm referring to those who do not know what they're looking at when watching a match. They are totally dependent on these so called "facts" and without them have nothing to say.
The naked eye tells so much more ... and the ignorant tend to base their entire argument on these half-truths. Perhaps we should just nod our heads whenever they speak ... and move quietly over to the other side of the room for a more detailed, deeper debate with others that are on the same page as we are.
I would never select a team based on stats. Not if I want to be competitive.
We have two promising youngsters in Du Preez and Willemse and based on what I saw (with my eye), the days of Jantjies are over. Instead of taking the match away from the Sharks with the three opportunities at posts, he succumbs to his usual panic attack and allows them the opportunity of sneaking it at the death. We were fortunate that they didn't make the most of their chances. Totally unacceptable.
I can't wait to see the back of this loser.
Look forward to the weekend.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Feb 2018, 07:55#15
CC
I agree with you about the issue of stats and team selection. I really only refer to stats as a supportive argument when Mozart and Beeno went ga-ga about Willemds.
At 19 years of age hat kid seems to have what our flyhalfs have lacked for years now.
My choice for flyhalfs are now limited to Pollard (if he gets his mojo back), Du Preez and Willemse. It is a toss=-up between Du Preez and Willemse as to the choice if Pollard does not get better. Even though Du Preez has more experience I think ultimately Willemse would be the better flyhalf.
M problem remains with the scrummies and centers. I have not seen the solution iro those positions on Saturday and hope the situation improves as the season progresses.
By the way I did not comment on the Du Toit situation on Saturday - but I am sure you are 100% correct about Du Toit as a Tighthead. Mozart obviously did not realize what happened in that case.
Sure we all look forward to the upcoming matches.
19 Feb 2018, 08:18#16
It's a hell of thing, Mike when a spent force like Beast is an improvement to your run on loosehead. One would have thought that they would play their best loosehead on the ... um ... loosehead side ... and that strengthening their depth in the front row would have been a priority during the off season.
What were are they thinking?
You cannot be competitive with your pack going backwards like that.
Raid the Cheetahs front row stocks, for crying out loud.
I thought Du Preez did well with a retreating pack. What will he do with a little more stability up front? Heavens above, what will he do with a dominant pack? He's a big unit and isn't afraid of contact. I really like him. This is a gifted youngster ... as is Willemse.
It's great to have these two promising youngsters coming through. This is going to be a good season for them both. They'll come into their own and lay their claim to the Bok 10 jersey ... and as you said ... we also have Pollard returning under Mitch.
I am very hopeful for the Bok this year. Haven't felt like this for ages.
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
19 Feb 2018, 09:38#17
So ou maaaike if I am given an overlap and run in an easy try or I am given very little chance of scoring but by sheer brilliance score a try each event is marked up as a try - ie no differentiation.
Further if I am given three opportunities to score an easy try and my opponent one, I win the the try stat but what does it mean.
Ou maaaikie being schooled in rugby 101 Do get up to speed ou maaaikie!
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
19 Feb 2018, 09:43#18
So ou maaaikie my saying a novice 19 year old like Willemse needs more time is all wrong. Hahhaahhahahaha you area tonic.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Feb 2018, 09:57#19
Beeno
You never said Willemse needs more time - you made some ignorant remarks on his performance and decision-making. If you said he did well on Saturday and will further mature by giving more time I would have agreed with you.
My advice to you - as is the case with Mozart - is to start thinking before you write BS in your normal way.
19 Feb 2018, 10:51#20
I wish our African brothers learned how to tackle.
Both of Mapoe try was through Am and Mpimpi. Neither seemed eager to tackle him.
Come bok selection and some members of the public are up in arms.
How are you going to win matches when your team is constantly chasing the game because of poor tackling
19 Feb 2018, 15:12#23
I almost feel in SA we no longer pride ourselves on defence.
I never got a chance to watch the junior BOKS last year but managed to find a couple of YouTube close clips and again it was evident that our Africans don't like to tackle. One average player ran through five defenders. All of the throwing themselves into the air but none of them trying to put the attacking player on his bump.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Feb 2018, 16:28#24
The ‘other player not in position to tackle Bofelli’ was of course the sieve Allende. He was absolutely in position to make the tackle, demonstrated by the fact that he was handed off....the commentatator making the point that he went too high.
Allende is our most inept centre defender, far more so than Am. Close second is Jessie Japan Kriel.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Feb 2018, 20:13#30
Worst ‘neckline defenders’ ......hahaha....would you say a low neckline is preferable. De Jongh’s test defensive stats are in the 90s....Allende in the 70s....’nuff said.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Feb 2018, 21:19#31
Mozart
When it fits your argument you use stats and mostly an abortion of it/ The stats of De Jonghm Steyn and De Allende was discussed numerous times on this site. and in all discussions oit was clear that they were worst defenders than De Allende.
At the stage when it became clear that you were talking utter BS you came up with myths such as the value of Steyn as a player is not reflected in his stats and mow you cone up with percentages of tackles made compared to missed tackles which you sucked out of your thumb and were basically lies at best,.
Let me also remind you about the stats of the test last year where you left out the defense stats of De Jongh and harp on other players who missed tackles. When I pointed out to you that the worst tacklers last year in that test were Morne Steyn and De Jongh - you made the dubious allegation that the subs of De Jongh were updated afterwards. Remember that one?
Lets accept that if their ever were a summary of the worst defending center in world rugby De Jongh ad Steyn will be near the top of the list of the most useless defenders.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Feb 2018, 22:09#32
It was clear? Clear to who? Clear to the guy who is lying about de Jongh’s ‘defensive stats last year’
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
19 Feb 2018, 22:51#34
From my above posts:Willemse needs a bit more time. Lets see how he goes this super Rugby season.
but otherwise was good on attack.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Feb 2018, 23:03#35
Actually Ou Tokkie....de Jongh’s last test for the Boks was on October 8 2016. He never played last year....and in that test in 2016 he made 12 of his 15 tackles. The previous week against Oz he made 5 of his 6 tackles.
Why do you lie all the time.....over and over again. Only to be outed and humiliated. It’s a mystery.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Feb 2018, 03:06#37
Since when does one test equate to a player’s career average....didn’t they teach you simple averages in the Provincial Administration.
And just stop lying man.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Feb 2018, 03:57#38
De Jongh's Career average in fact was a missed tackle ratio was in fact 28.8 against 26,9 of Fat Fransie and 26,1 of De Allende - you stupid BSter.
However, De Jongh was more famous for going AWOL in matches and ducking out of tackles he was supposed to make where he disappeared from the scebe because he was covering another player elsewhere. See the 2012 EOYT/
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Feb 2018, 07:26#39
Rubbish ......here are the tackles made/missed from all de Jongh’s tests using Stats Guru. Even the ones where he came on as a last minute sub:
Wales 10/1.
France 4/0.
Italy 2/0.
Italy 4/0.
Oz 3/1.
NZ 16/0.
Oz 3/0.
NZ 7/1.
Fiji1/0.
Namibia 0/0.
Oz 0/0.
NZ 0/0.
Scotland 4/1.
England 3/0.
Arg 0/0.
Oz no stats available.
NZ 5/3.
Oz 5/1.
NZ 12/3.
Total all tests 79/11 or a success rate of 88%. Outstanding numbers for a modern test centre.
So where does the missed ratio of 28.8% come from? Let me guess, you just made it up trusting nobody would fact check you. What a liar.
