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FORUM / RUGBY /  The Lions win....a non emotional take.

The Lions win....a non emotional take.

Started by Mozart52 REPLIES1,108 VIEWS· 01 Jul 2017, 19:09
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MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
01 Jul 2017, 19:09
#1
01 Jul 2017, 19:09#1
I favour the ABs but for this test a Lions win keeps the drama alive. A few points: . 1 The SBW hit was actually a double hit with Naholo....there was no room for a conventional tackle, it was more of a blocking move. Technically it could have gone either way, and given the player wasn't hurt a yellow could have been called. . 2 The Vunipola hit on the ground was much more fangerous and deserved equal punishment. . 3 The ABs played a perfect 14 man game, which they lost when the Lions yellow occurred.....and they never quite could get it back. . 4 Cruden for Naholo really weakened the effort....as did Perenara for Smith. Perenara made a crucial mistake in the Murray try......and in the last lineout NZ had disrupted, but he jumped in and knocked on, he was over amped. . 5 The Lions erred in playing narrow, the moment they went wide the man advantage started to tell. The pivotal incident was Dagg's poor tackle miss on the excellent Faletau, he went too high on a strong man. . 6 For the Lions the 10/12 pairing worked at the death, Murray was superb and Itoje provided the necessary mongrel, even if he conceded a lot of penalties. . 7 For NZ Smith was superb and Jaws played one of the great lock games I have seen. . 8 Reffing was inconsistent and atrocious....for example the touch Williams got before the Dagg knock on that led to Lions points. Garces is a mess and Ayoub bleating and being ignored seemed like chaos. And on the last penalty, if that was the correct ruling, why not just jump through the tackle off a deliberately high pass in future. The defender has no recourse. In truth in that situation the defender was more likely to get hurt.
JW
Just_win
Captain18,570 posts
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
01 Jul 2017, 19:38
#2
01 Jul 2017, 19:38#2
 It was a hard one to win but the ABs almost pulled it off so credit to them for that. Normally the ABs play well enough to take the ref out of the game but in this game they did not do this even when they were ahead - they had their chances.
AB forwards (playing one man down for 55+ minutes) did well against a supposedly stronger NH set of forwards.
ABs gave m ore playing time to a couple of players and gave Luamape a good run (he did ok for a trial by fire) so they are building depth. That's a plus.
Next test will be terrific and maybe we will see the end of those saying this is the last of the Lions tests.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
01 Jul 2017, 20:31
#3
01 Jul 2017, 20:31#3
I've looked at the SBW shoulder charge a few times.....Watson ducked into the tackle at the last second. It was a shoulder charge, but I'm guessing SBW's intent was to smash him backwards not target the head.
AB
ABasquefan
Pro2,549 posts
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
01 Jul 2017, 20:45
#4
01 Jul 2017, 20:45#4
 
1. SBW deserved red,... that was a shoulder charge to the head-face

2. Vunipola's could be more debatable,... he wasn't using his arm but didn't hit with the shoulder because Barrett's head was movig backwards,... if he had hit Barrett's head with the shoulder it should have been red

3. "The ABs played a perfect 14 man game, which they lost when the Lions yellow occurred"

agree, the AB were in controol of the game when playing with one man down,... and, incredibly, things changed when the number of players were levelled

4. "Cruden for Naholo really weakened the effort."

agree, after the last reshuffle of the backline when Naholo was concussed the backline looked shaky

"Perenara made a crucial mistake in the Murray try."

I don't think it was Perenara's mistake,.... he was correctly placed but Farrell (I think was) try to tackle him ill egally out of the ruck and grabbed his foot,... in the effort to free his foot Perenara left a corridor for Murray in his side of the ruck,.... probably a penalty against Farrell (but difficult to call, in fact it was reviewed by the TMO)
and IMO the decisive mistake came from Savea who let a huge corridor for George to braeak the line

5. Dagg failed his tackle, no doubt,... and should have done it at least a little bit better, Retallick was coming,... but that fist try was a collective mistake,... the backline was out of position, ALB missed tackle lead to Watson's break,...


In my view Garces' worst thing was that he let the Lions players to claim any call they disliked,... that was already a bit messy,... once he changed one of his calls after the claimings that became the total mess because the AB, obviously, began to claim every call they disliked also



CL
CleanCut
Pro9,905 posts
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
01 Jul 2017, 20:48
#5
01 Jul 2017, 20:48#5
 
Nonsense Mozart.

There was no ducking of any kind. His head remained at the same level for at least a meter and a half before he was hit in the face with the shoulder. It was intentional ... designed to injure.

It's not the firtst time either. SBW has done this before ... many times ... it's how he rolls.

He is a dirty player and deserved the red. I'm hoping for an additional 6 to 8 week ban for this low life.




AB
ABasquefan
Pro2,549 posts
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
01 Jul 2017, 21:46
#6
01 Jul 2017, 21:46#6
 JW,
i think it was a mistake to bring the inexperienced Laumape to the squad,.... this was probably the worst game to make someone debut,.... the B&I Lions series is not the time to debut,.... I think they should have choosen Fekitoa instead, more experience and proven defender

with Ioane (young, inexperienced) and ALB (young, little experience) there's already enough but if you add Laumape there's too much youth and inexperience for a B&I Lions series in the backline
missing Crotty I would have started with Fekitoa at 13 today,... even considering that ALB is a better and more complete player,.... and ALB from the bench
JW
Just_win
Captain18,570 posts
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
01 Jul 2017, 22:05
#7
01 Jul 2017, 22:05#7
ABF, yes in retrospect it was a mistake to make so many changes in the back line. With B. Smith and Crotty out something had to be done and they were a major loss. 
Including the new back line players made us vulnerable but who knew SBW would have  been sent off and so early? Fekitoa would probably been better for this one game but he was not available and Hansen decided to invest in developing Laumape. He also decided to risk dropping Savea in favor of Ioane (the depth will help us later but why rush?)
Hansen pushes the risk factor up sometimes but he usually gets it right. Today it didn't workout.
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Jul 2017, 23:31
#8
01 Jul 2017, 23:31#8
 The situation to my mind is plain  - the side that scores tries should win games.   The penalty issue gives the ref too much of a discretion in games and it is easy for him to bugger up like he did in some cases.   His questionable penalties favoured both sides.

BR
Brycy
Pro4,671 posts
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
01 Jul 2017, 23:46
#9
01 Jul 2017, 23:46#9
 ...what's concerning was that the Lions were penalised out of the game and played woefully but still managed to win...a sign of a good team... and that we were rubbish

Re SBW- you can take the boy out of league but looks like you can't take the league out of the boy...looked ugly....lets' hope Crotty is able to start next week as not sure if Laumape is quite ready for the big time..
...the way i saw it we lacked leadership this time - we were rudderless in attack.... last week the ABs were unbeatable with Cruden at 10...he steered the ship masterfully and orchestrated an emphatic win...this week, what a contrast...Barret led , Cruden left on the bench til late in the piece - say no more...still anyone's series though...
...let's hope we also have a wet weather contingency gameplan for next week filed somewhere... and little use having two of the worlds best wingers if you're not going to use them ...at least Julian Savea used to go looking for work in the centres..  
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
01 Jul 2017, 23:52
#10
01 Jul 2017, 23:52#10
Well I am reading the usual British press whining about SBW.....it was a shoulder charge....but two tacklers were involved, there was no space for SBW's right arm. Watson did duck before the tackle ....and SBW presented the shoulder. But given dynamics in that tackle you had two options, to pull out or present the shoulder. SBW disastrously did the latter. ... But in Vunipola's case there was no mitigating factor. A much smaller player was on the deck....he took a flying dive at his head and only missed because Barrett flung himself backwards. ... In other words the SBW incident was clumsy, taking the dangerous choice rather than pulling out...but it was spur of the moment. Vunipola had no need for the clean out and ample opportunity to assess the situation. ... Vunipola's was the more dangerous incident, the one with full intent....and only less lurid because he missed. In the spirit of the SBW decision, he should have got a red. Or both should have been yellow. .. The ABs are bending over backwards to be good sports, and SBW is not popular. But if Vunipola concussed Barrett as he could easily have done the reaction would have been totally different.
BR
Brycy
Pro4,671 posts
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
01 Jul 2017, 23:54
#11
01 Jul 2017, 23:54#11
 ...water under the bridge
AJ
Arthur John
Pro1,748 posts
AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
02 Jul 2017, 01:14
#12
02 Jul 2017, 01:14#12
We must have been watching two different rugby tests.
SBW hit was dangerous and he deserved what he got.Vinipola's clean out was a typical AB's type of clean out and I thought it was fair but overplayed by Barrett for a penalty or better.
In my opinion, the All Blacks are great at handing out borderline hits but cry foul when receiving the same treatment.
What goes around comes around............



MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Jul 2017, 01:33
#13
02 Jul 2017, 01:33#13
In a clean out you are supposed stay on your feet....not dive at the player landing flat on your face in the ruck.
JW
Just_win
Captain18,570 posts
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
02 Jul 2017, 02:04
#14
02 Jul 2017, 02:04#14
 Sean O'brien has been cited after the game for a red card fou l on Naholo. 
Here's the article as published in Rugby Stuff--------------------------------------------------------

Video of the incident in the 59th minute appears to show O'Brien making contact with Naholo's jaw with his arm after the All Blacks wing received a kickoff.

 

Naholo left the field soon afterwards for a head injury assessment and didn't return, casting doubt on his availability for the third and deciding test in Auckland on Saturday.

 

 

Australian citing commissioner Scott Nowland on Sunday morning said O'Brien had been cited for dangerous play in the Wellington test, won 24-21 by the Lions.

 

"The incident, in the 19th minute of the second half, is deemed to have met the threshold for a red card," Nowland said.

 

 

A judicial panel consisting would hear the case in Wellington tonight.

 

All Blacks second five-eighth Sonny Bill Williams is already facing a judicial hearing at 5pm after he was red carded for a shoulder charge to the face of Lions wing Anthony Watson.

 

Lions prop Mako Vunipola also raised the ire of referee Jerome Garces, and was yellow carded for making contact with Beauden Barrett with his shoulder when cleaning out.

 

Sean O'Brien could be in trouble for his swinging arm on Waisake Naholo.

Sean O'Brien could be in trouble for his swinging arm on Waisake Naholo.

 

O'Brien would constitute a massive loss for the Lions if he is cited and ruled out of the third test.

 

The 30-year-old Leinster breakway was one of the Lions' best ball carriers in Wellington, joining lock Maro Itoje with nine carries.

 

He made 28 metres - the most by a Lions forward - and made 12 tackles.

 


Waisake Naholo is taken off for a concussion test.

 

O'Brien's performances in New Zealand have impressed his Irish backrow partner Jamie Heaslip.

 

Speaking on Irish radio station Newstalk's Off The Ball programme, Heaslip said O'Brien had not played much in the last season but had looked after himself and prepared well for the Lions tour

 

 "It doesn't take a lot to get that kid going. His game is such that he can shine in all sorts of conditions. So, if it's a game where it's dry and it's open, he'll get his hands on the ball and he'll play.

 

"He's so strong and his centre of gravity is so low…just the bulk, you know what I mean? He's bloody hard to tackle. Trust me, I've been training with the man for the last 10 years – I know all about it! And he's got skills as well to play and offload.

 

"But then when it's a wet game, he's in there – he's like a groundhog on the ball, like. And when he gets on it he's like a tick, man. He's dug in. He's not coming out.

 

"So he's able to adapt his game no matter what. I'd say he's very happy with how he's playing, and by all reports, he's having a great time down there!"

 

 - Stuff

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Jul 2017, 02:38
#15
02 Jul 2017, 02:38#15
One couldn't see whose arm that was, but it looked pretty deliberate....there was plenty of niggle on both sides and the British press adopting a holier than thou attitude is a bit much.
HA
hakwa
Pro4,146 posts
HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
02 Jul 2017, 04:39
#16
02 Jul 2017, 04:39#16
 It is what it is.
Critical points for me in the game when we should have closed it out.
1. a) Cruden's obstruction of a Lions player on the wing. There was no need. Barrett had it covered. People foul play when they don't trust the player next to them. 
b) Cruden's cross kick when the points were locked at 21 all with 2 minutes left. Very dumb giving away possession. The forwards would have kept it tight for a drop call infront of the sticks. 
For those 2 dumb moves I expect Cruden to be dropped for the 3rd Test and Sopoaga recalled to the bench. I hope his move to France is not distracting him at present. 
2. a) Barrett's chip kick at the death on his 22. Very dumb. It gave the possession back to the Lions and they scored from a penalty.
b) He did not convert kickable penalties infront of the sticks.
I expect Barrett to still be there for the 3rd Test.
3. Laumape's knocking on at a crucial moment of the game. Possession is everything son. U will get better. Just need to work on your distribution and kicking game next.
4. Perenara a) knocking on at a crucial time of the Test.
b) Not tackling his opposite for an easy try. Very soft
Remember when u come on as a sub for a 14man Team, man up and mark up and possession is everything.
I expect Perenara to start the 3rd Test. He is wasted on the bench. 
5. Aaron Smith -- >Watching the ponderous Aaron Smith is painful. Smith's every move is telegraphed and easy for the Lions to read and no tries were scored by the All Blacks because of Smith's slow delivery. Even when the ball is available, Smith deliberately dillydallies at the base of the ruck -->reminds me of a certain Justin Marshall.
CL
CleanCut
Pro9,905 posts
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
02 Jul 2017, 11:12
#17
02 Jul 2017, 11:12#17
 
Fully agree, Arthur.

Mozart sees what he wants to see. He saw the man ducking when there wasn't any ducking. Then he comes up with additional nonsense about SBW options and no space for his arm.

In truth ... he had no intentions of using his arm. We can all see that on the video footage available. In truth he had every intention of following through with the shoulder charge ... every intention of injuring the player ... with the hopes of getting away with it ... as he usually does. He had plenty of time to pull out but decided not to. He's a dirty player and the red was derserved

It's not the first time he's done this.

Barrett milked a penalty. He should have been given an Oscar for the performance. Missed his calling. He should conside any offer he gets from Holiwood. A typical Kiwi cheat.

Mozart fabricates as far as he goes. He's known for twisting facts to suit his argument.
This is just another bit of the same old nonsense we've seen from him. It's based on his dislike of the British ...

Dismiss it for the rubbish it is.


BO
bobbok...
Captain10,129 posts
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
02 Jul 2017, 11:27
#18
02 Jul 2017, 11:27#18
 CC, what kind of drugs have you been peddling for 16 years ?
JW
Just_win
Captain18,570 posts
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
02 Jul 2017, 11:50
#19
02 Jul 2017, 11:50#19
 Hi Cloudy, still trying to put wee cc back in his box I see He has no credibility with me and his nickname of "turncoat" is but one reason. We will see if he's man enough to be a decent bloke. One must remain optimistic
JW
Just_win
Captain18,570 posts
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
02 Jul 2017, 12:00
#20
02 Jul 2017, 12:00#20
 Well fortunately you do voice your opinion and no one is stupid enough to tell you not to, as far as I can tell... but I'm a mere male with the sensitivity of a stone so what do I know.
Glad the SA posters have something to go on about what with their wins over France and now an AB loss. It's been a grim place in here starting early last year. Even Beeno has been domes ticated so not much fun from him lately. Yes, things should pick up now.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Jul 2017, 13:35
#21
02 Jul 2017, 13:35#21
Excuse me if I don't buy the 'uncontrollable thug' rhetoric. Both touch judges and the video ref were clearly thinking yellow. And if yellow was given everybody would have accepted it as the right call. This was a reaction to the new rules, just as we saw a bunch of neck roll calls in the WC.....Garces was programmed.
HA
hakwa
Pro4,146 posts
HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
02 Jul 2017, 14:12
#22
02 Jul 2017, 14:12#22
Mozart, there is as much chance of getting these French refs to see the big picture than Ref Barnes recognising a forward pass LOLS . A Lions Series win will probably be a great advertisement for rugby union as a world sport.
What really worries me is if the other French ref red cards another ABs player at Eden Park for some obscure reason and effectively ending the series without a shot being fired or a Test Match being played.
Vunipola was acting all tough after SBW was sent off -->what was funny was the ABs forward pack wiped the floor with him scrum time to earn a penalty. Even against 7 Vunipola could not scrum if his life depended on it. He wheeled the scrum, stood up and then put his hands up as if the ABs did something illegal....run all u want Vunipola, but we will catch up with u come Eden Park where there will be a reckoning u cheat.
If Warren thinks he will ever coach the All Blacks with the kind of rubbish he is producing, he got another thing coming. Warren will never ever coach the ABs.
JW
Just_win
Captain18,570 posts
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
02 Jul 2017, 16:24
#23
02 Jul 2017, 16:24#23
 Sean O'Brien avoids suspension for swinging arm on Naholo as he was cleared after a 4 hour hearing. Perhaps Moz was right and they couldn't decide whose arm it was.
BR
Brycy
Pro4,671 posts
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
02 Jul 2017, 19:15
#24
02 Jul 2017, 19:15#24
 ...hakwa is that the crystal methodist church you belong to...
...Cloudy , its not the airport so you don't have to announce your departure... or just try ignoring the grumpy green tellytubby supporters...some of them are completely lala... 
 
BE
Beeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
02 Jul 2017, 19:28
#25
02 Jul 2017, 19:28#25
 sunni bill got what he deserved and there was unanimous agreement on the TV panel on this issue and the outstanding ref display by those who know something about the game.Dr Mozzzz is probably just trying hard to hold together the shattererd pieces of over blown kbbs egoes. Bwahhahahahahaha Very kind of you Dr Mozzz but face it these kbbs needed taking down a peg or 1000 !Fancy lady Cloudy going on so forcefully about matters!
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Jul 2017, 20:04
#26
02 Jul 2017, 20:04#26
Seriously Hasbeen...you are going to listen to Naaaaaas? The panel no doubr him and a similar bunch of morons. Ask yourself this....what was different between Jannes Labuschagne's red and the Vunipola late kick charge. Pom rugby and it's fake news reporters are turning this into a story of good and evil. .. There were five foul play incidents.....the Williams tackle, the Laumape charge, the Vunipola charge, the Vunipola death dive and the ghostly arm of Lions past that knocked out Naholo. Three by Lions. As for O Brien being let off after four hours, that scarcely suggests innocence. ... Never believe fake news, you should know that.
AJ
Arthur John
Pro1,748 posts
AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
02 Jul 2017, 20:44
#27
02 Jul 2017, 20:44#27
JW it was an ALL Black arm.....you know the play.
Moz the reason it took four hours was due to the fact that the NZ official keeps calling for a replay of the alleged incident. 
Finally, the penny dropped when he could not argue about an NZ arm causing the hit.
JW
Just_win
Captain18,570 posts
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
02 Jul 2017, 21:23
#28
02 Jul 2017, 21:23#28
 Well at least you guys have something to divert your attention from the Boks and their current rankings. We should be thankful for small mercies.. . or so I've been told
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Jul 2017, 21:40
#29
02 Jul 2017, 21:40#29
An All Black arm....gosh I hadn't thought of that, shades of Corne Krige and the phantom punch, hahaha. Well AJ seems to have spotted the problem JW. Looking forward to Saturday!
JW
Just_win
Captain18,570 posts
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
02 Jul 2017, 21:43
#30
02 Jul 2017, 21:43#30
 Yes Mozart, I am looking forward to Saturday also but we will have to watch out for the red arms posing as black arms.
CL
CleanCut
Pro9,905 posts
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
03 Jul 2017, 10:03
#31
03 Jul 2017, 10:03#31
 
Haaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha!!! Looking for sympathy now I see, Lara?

I never said anywhere that you werent allowed an opinion. Please clarify!!

It doesn't mean that I have to comply to the horseshyte your selling.

Nonsense is nonsense ... whinging and whining is all the same ... no matter where it comes from ... be it "testosterone" filled or "oestrogen". 

What a disappointment you are.



 
HA
hakwa
Pro4,146 posts
HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
03 Jul 2017, 11:15
#32
03 Jul 2017, 11:15#32
 CC and Arthur John, WATER UNDER THE BRIDGE.
All we ask is for the ref to spray the Lions players with permanent red paint before the game starts so we know which arm belongs to which Team. Spraying the ABs with black paint won't work as most of them are black anyway LOLS .

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
03 Jul 2017, 14:16
#33
03 Jul 2017, 14:16#33
Cloudy.... Turncoat is an old fashioned bully with a nasty streak. A kind of throw back .....it's not worth your time justifying anything to this repulsive character. Forget about him, none of us are taking his attacks on you seriously.
CL
CleanCut
Pro9,905 posts
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
04 Jul 2017, 08:05
#34
04 Jul 2017, 08:05#34
 
Yeah, yeah ... I'm a meany and you're such a nice person.

We get it.


HA
hakwa
Pro4,146 posts
HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
04 Jul 2017, 08:13
#35
04 Jul 2017, 08:13#35
Now CC is feeling sorry for himself lols  
BL
bluebok
Pro3,977 posts
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
04 Jul 2017, 08:23
#36
04 Jul 2017, 08:23#36
Hey CC what's up lately? You're a bit grumpy with most on the board? Do lighten up man, there are some good things afoot! The Lions are looking really good! Although, with their current log position, for the second year in a row they must be regretting sending their B team to play the Jaguares. If they had won that game they'd be topping the table! Now they are relying on someone else to help knock the Crusaders off the top perch. Also, the Boks seem to have a glimmer of hope again. Spread the cheer big guy! 
 
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
06 Jul 2017, 17:52
#37
06 Jul 2017, 17:52#37

The sub call was wrong when the red card occurred. The AB's should have kept Kaino on and lost a wing for the sub 12.


The AB's actually embarrassed the Lions for in fact the Lions should have easily overcome 14 men.


The easy missed kicks saved the Lions embarrassment.


But the result keeps the series alive and reinforces the retention of the Lions as a touring side amidst the rumblings of the Lions tradition being culled  

RO
Rooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
06 Jul 2017, 17:56
#38
06 Jul 2017, 17:56#38
"The sub call was wrong when the red card occurred. The AB's should have kept Kaino on and lost a wing for the sub 12."
Nonsense. It was an excellent call which kept the All Blacks in the game.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
07 Jul 2017, 00:12
#39
07 Jul 2017, 00:12#39
The sub call kept the All Blacks in the game according to Urinal, the Lions penalties kept the All Blacks out of the game according to Neanderthal........ confusion among the barking dogs.
CL
CleanCut
Pro9,905 posts
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
07 Jul 2017, 08:34
#40
07 Jul 2017, 08:34#40
 
Save the lecture, BlueBok.

Thanks.




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